Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thorn-wychkin May 13, 2009 3:36:12	Last sunday i started playing in a 3.5 campaign. our characters are 12 years old. anyway, my character is in the nearby town watching an ogre and half-orc gladiator in the town square challenging people to a brawl in ring. My character (Anatole) was on the edge of the ring shouting and trying to get someone to jump in so he could see a good fight(he's an orphan and this is the first time he has been to town since he left the city at age 5.) anyway, while he's there shouting someone pushes him in and while he's trying to leave the ring he hears the ogre ask the crowd if that's the best they could do. Ana, took offense to this and wanting to appear more like a man than a boy he decides to accept the challenge. He is shaking in his boots but decides to stand by his word and even goes as far as to bet a single gold piece on himself. The contest was to see who could knock the other out of the game area first. Initiative got rolled and the ogre charges first. Ana, tries to get out the way skids and falls but as the ogre reaches him he attempts to trip him. he fails to trip the creature but the ogre falls on him anyway. he then presses his feet to the ogre's belly and launches him(more like rolls) off of him and out of the ring and won! anyway before all that happened and while i was placing my bet, i asked the DM what kind of odds would I be getting. she said 1000 to 1. so when I won I received a thousand gold pieces. That's all fine and dandy. my problem is this, the DM mentioned somehting like not giving my character any treasure for a while because of his tremendous luck. she hasn't actually done anything yet but I don't feel she should be doing anything at all about my win since it was sheer luck and not ever likely to happen again. What I would like to know is what kind of argument i could propose to my DM that would allow me to keep all my gold and still receive treasure like the rest of the party
#2 kouk May 13, 2009 5:17:24	Well, I guess there's any manner of argument you might present -- but it's easier/better for everyone if one player doesn't get ahead of the others in terms of wealth regardless of the reason. I would work out perhaps that your character gets tricked/mugged for all that money, so you're back down to an amount equal to the other PCs, and then you can just adventure as normal while having some nice story hooks for the character (like tracking down the thieves when you're strong enough and 1,000gp is a decent reward). It's not a total loss: you're still "the kid that beat the ogre."
#3 Heros_Backpack May 13, 2009 6:41:41	I would guess that the DM wants to keep the wealth levels balanced - two suggestions that come to my mind are: Either offer to use it as a common fund for the party, paying for healing, inn fees, transport etc. This option would mean that you share the money so no-one gets ahead of anyone else. Or use it to buy yourself a small house or shop that the party can use as a base. Houses don't do anything to improve your effective wealth or how much gear you have, but you can still point to it as the place you bought with your winnings.
#4 ace_of_time May 13, 2009 9:28:43	You could go ahead and split the gold between the party. This would lessen the impact on wealth and put you into getting gold faster. My group always split the gold even if they gain it by themselves. (not by my rules it is just the way they like doing things) They also split the gold by 1 extra person. My group has 3 players so they would split the gold 4 ways then use the 4 share as a group fund and by group item, healling, inn, and the like. Anything the group does together.
#5 yellowdingo May 13, 2009 9:34:40	...lucky slob wins a thousand gold pieces in a brawl... Short of rolling about naked on the gold in front of all the villagers so they will never desire to touch it ever..., oh you meant the DM wont give you more. OK, I suggest you have a chat with the DM about how It was earned quite fairly through good PC play and it is part of the story. DMs never whine when PCs have a bad time with little gold. So He/She needs to simply stick to the rules and keep going with the game. As to you getting more gold...I suggest a 6&1/2 acre vinyard (its good for 7 tuns (Tun: a barrel of 216 gallons) of wine per year). Simply find a gold dragon you can trust and invest in his agricultural empire.
#6 greebo69 May 13, 2009 10:00:52	The DM missed an opportunity. Bets are done via bookies or licensed gambling facilities. The 12 year old not getting his 1k winnings is an opportunity for either the bookie or the licensed facility to break the bet, opening up new storyline possibilities.
#7 thorn-wychkin May 13, 2009 14:32:01	I'm not sure i fully understand you but suspecting that the bookie might try to cheat him since he was a kid, he had the ogre and the half-orc warrior accompany him when he went to collect The DM missed an opportunity. Bets are done via bookies or licensed gambling facilities. The 12 year old not getting his 1k winnings is an opportunity for either the bookie or the licensed facility to break the bet, opening up new storyline possibilities. while I agree it would be fair to share the money, I don't see why I should seeing that I told the other player to bet too and also he was an ogre so he was more likely to be able to win something if he had stepped in there too. So He/She needs to simply stick to the rules and keep going with the game. As to you getting more gold...I suggest a 6&1/2 acre vinyard (its good for 7 tuns (Tun: a barrel of 216 gallons) of wine per year). Simply find a gold dragon you can trust and invest in his agricultural empire. My character has no plans for his money at the moment. yeah he's practically rich at the age of 12 now but he's smart enough to know that any choices he's making about spending his money now is not likely to look so impressive later on. Anyway There's actually a gold dragon who is going have dinner with that very evening so i guess I am in the perfect position to see about investing with him. I would work out perhaps that your character gets tricked/mugged for all that money, so you're back down to an amount equal to the other PCs, and then you can just adventure as normal while having some nice story hooks for the character (like tracking down the thieves when you're strong enough and 1,000gp is a decent reward). It's not a total loss: you're still "the kid that beat the ogre." First of all, he's not gonna go walking around with a 1000gp in a town. it's all in a bank. and secondly, if a DM did that, I would say they are railroading my character into being a pauper since they are directly working to make my choices not matter.
#8 kouk May 13, 2009 15:21:10	First of all, he's not gonna go walking around with a 1000gp in a town. it's all in a bank. and secondly, if a DM did that, I would say they are railroading my character into being a pauper since they are directly working to make my choices not matter. So maybe the bank's robbed. There's a difference between railroading and trying to correct a mistake, though if something isn't viewed as a mistake by everyone then I guess it looks pretty similar. The DM realizes he shouldn't have handed you 1,000gp. Sometimes DMs fool themselves into thinking, "I'll say yes, because there's no way the players will pull it off," which the players of course promptly do. So to correct that from becoming a problem (that of one character having more money than the others) he already proposed not dropping as much loot for you in the future, which you also don't like. The actual "problem" is probably the "idea" of your 12-year-old walking around with 1,000gp while the others have none. If you spend it on something relatively benign the problem would likely disappear. If you invest in a vineyard and other money-making schemes, things will likely just get more complicated than the DM wants them to be. 1,000gp is really not a huge deal in 3.5 D&D, it's just enough for a +1 item. If you get something like magic armor or a weapon there's little problem; if anything the DM may just not drop a +1 item suited to your character for a little while. If you get something like a generally useful wondrous item the party can all benefit from -- maybe something like magically replenishing rations -- there is no actual need to reduce found loot for your character because you've benefited the whole group and saved yourself and them a tremendous amount of hassle with never having to deal with certain issues again. If you assume you'll be on the road a long time, everlasting rations are a good investment, logically speaking (not only don't you need to go to towns for food, you don't have to carry as many supplies). As to "why" your character might share the money, I can't really give him a reason. I could suggest you could be a "nice guy," or a "team player," or just a "manipulative bastard" trying to set up a web of favors owed to you, but it shouldn't be impossible to think of a reason to share the funds with your adventuring companions who you rely upon for your life. Hell, maybe you set up or fund an orphanage, so others' lives can be better than the loneliness your character experienced. Maybe the character has a huge ego and goes around paying people to name things after him or constructing statues. None of those things is wasting the money. Would a 12-year-old really be so cognizant of their own likely ineptitude with large sums of money though? A hundred here, a hundred there, pretty soon it's all gone.
#9 mesinock May 13, 2009 15:22:10	Your DM has no viable grounds for keeping your treasure gains lower than the rest of the party. S/he set up the encounter, and you capitalized on it and gained greatly at great risk = great reward. 1k is not that great of a wealth disparity between you and the rest of the party anyway. They will quickly catch up through adventuring as you will undoubtedly pass over several items of great value, which will not be immediately recognizable as valuable to you. More than likely you will be using that wealth to the betterment of your comrades anyway, as their improvement improves your wealth in the future. Furthermore your DM has already set a precedence for solo 'adventure'/ encounter, which will result in the other characters having opportunity to make personal gains throughout the campaign.
#10 losoyo May 13, 2009 17:34:04	While a kid with 1k is kind of..interesting. It would seem to me the DM is punishing you for not only participating in her plot, but winning. It honestly would make me question the integrity of her quests, and make me not want to participate. In that regard, I'd probably talk to her out of character about it. If she is insistent that it's to much of an advantage then use it as a group fund and ask her not to do something that she will punish you for later.. That's my two cents.. for what they're worth.
#11 themocaw May 13, 2009 18:06:19	"You give your money to your mom to put it in a safe place, holding it for you until you're older and you can spend it wisely."
#12 CCS May 14, 2009 2:20:42	Ahh! The problem lies with the DM, yes. But not in the manner you think. See, the DM should never say what their going to do concerning future treasure. Besides, in a best case scenario you've already got 1k gold. If you don't find a whole lot real soon, so what? It's not like you'll be hurting for $/gear. And if you do find "normal" treasure at this lv it's not going to really add much.... So really your arguments based upon info your character has no way of knowing.
#13 thorn-wychkin May 14, 2009 2:25:46	I am going to explain something. I'm a team player when it comes to this game and I am always up for sharing. Like someone else said, if these other people stay alive it means I am also likely to stay alive which has always been the philosophy of my characters regardless of alignment. This issue is not about me wanting to be greedy and wanting to outstrip everyone else in wealth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The problem I have is that the DM might try to tell me how to spend my money or punish me for calling her bluff and winning. I never received any exp and so what I won is mine fair and square and should be mine to with as I see fit. you guys are right, 1000gp isn't a lot of money in 3.5 but our characters don't even have classes or levels yet much less started adventuring. all of this is just pre-story character development. I fully intend on sharing the money. I just don't want to be told I should share it or else. If I bought a vineyard with it, the vineyard would have been a gift to the orpahange. Hell, maybe you set up or fund an orphanage, so others' lives can be better than the loneliness your character experienced. Maybe the character has a huge ego and goes around paying people to name things after him or constructing statues. None of those things is wasting the money. Would a 12-year-old really be so cognizant of their own likely ineptitude with large sums of money though? A hundred here, a hundred there, pretty soon it's all gone. Sometimes DMs fool themselves into thinking, "I'll say yes, because there's no way the players will pull it off," which the players of course promptly do.. yeah she really did fool herself. I didn't even volunterr to be in the ring. I just wanted to watch two men beat the crap out of each other but she decided to hurl me into this almost impossible situation. lol in fact my path to victory was highly improbable as far as die rolls were concerned. I made four rolls during that encounter: 1, 20, 19, 20 respectively, all natural. I remember not even wanting to let the die fall when I was about to make my final roll because I was bombarded with visions of my d20 turning up a 1.
#14 green_girl May 14, 2009 7:59:54	Wait, you didn't get exp for that? At all? You can tell the DM that 1000 isn't really that much (because really, it isn't). The others have said more sound advice than I can ever spout.
#15 mock26 May 14, 2009 9:55:38	Take your 1,000 gold pieces and donate it to a local orphanage.
#16 MrCustomer May 14, 2009 12:56:56	Your DM will likely not want you to keep this gold, so you should work with him instead and try to get a balanced award instead of getting disgruntled and frustrated over a missing award. The Ogre is likely not alone, someone is probably backing the fight and gambling, and these are likely shadey characters, ones who will rather slit your throat then pay you that much gold. The fight was fixed, make no mistake about that. The Ogre fell even though your trip failed, he fell on purpose and deliberately lost. Someone working for them probably pushed you into the ring. They are running a racket. Push a kid into the ring, let him win a huge amount of gold, heck if a kid can beat that Ogre, so can a full grown man, right? They make a fortune with the betting. But don't seriously beleive they will actually let you have that gold. Someone in the crowd, and you don't know who, is working for them, soon as you leave he will slit your thoat and take that gold back. Your character is in grave danger, and you are easy prey for them to get their money back, even if they give it to you in the first place. Your best bet is to realise that you aren't going to get the gold, and to instead settle for a smaller amount. You should be watching over your shoulder, they are going to come after you for it. Let them have it and settle for getting a more reasonable reward instead. Perhaps approaching them (in a public area) and saying "Hey, thats a nice racket you are pulling their, letting me win and then getting all those chumps to throw their gold away, but this is too much money and I don't need my thoat slit for it, have it back, I'll take 50 gold for my cut. Hey I have another idea of getting the suckers in. I'll go around bragging to everyone how I beat the Ogre, and then get a couple of my friends to start saying that I am a big liar, there is no way I coulda won. Tomorrow I will come back to the ring with them and they will all start making fun of me saying I didn't do it and demanding I prove it. I will then chalenge you to a rematch to prove that I won. You can bang me up a bet to make it look real (not too much, don't want to scare away the chumps) just let me trip you up and win again" The other alternative is to screw them over and at the same time get rid of the Gold (or most of it) so that you have nothing for them to come after to get. What you do is take the poach of gold and shout out that you only won by blind luck so don't really deserve it and are going to share it with everyone, then start tossing the gold into the crowd at the ring, right in front of the Orge and Orc (thus they see that the gold is gone) just remember to leave about 50 to 100 gold in the bag for yourself secretly, but make a display of throwing it all away.
#17 thorn-wychkin May 14, 2009 13:42:32	Things are too forgone for her to do this. The warriors escorted me back to the Inn where they drank themselves sick while I waited on my mother. Ana, has seen his mother blast someone to bits before and so he feels his money to be safe with her. The DM has been quite clear about her badassness and her getting jumped and overcome by these folk is highly unlikely.
#18 adamquest64 May 15, 2009 1:52:19	What the DM says goes. In your case, I think the DM sounds like she's making the game less real by saying this, which I consider a bad thing. Also, it was her mistake to allow you a chance at winning that much gold. Despite all this, she is still the DM, and if you want to continue playing D&D, it would be in your besyt interest to go along with whatever she says. Finding a steady group is hard to do.
#19 Maxperson May 15, 2009 11:43:36	Last sunday i started playing in a 3.5 campaign. our characters are 12 years old. anyway, my character is in the nearby town watching an ogre and half-orc gladiator in the town square challenging people to a brawl in ring. My character (Anatole) was on the edge of the ring shouting and trying to get someone to jump in so he could see a good fight(he's an orphan and this is the first time he has been to town since he left the city at age 5.) anyway, while he's there shouting someone pushes him in and while he's trying to leave the ring he hears the ogre ask the crowd if that's the best they could do. Ana, took offense to this and wanting to appear more like a man than a boy he decides to accept the challenge. He is shaking in his boots but decides to stand by his word and even goes as far as to bet a single gold piece on himself. The contest was to see who could knock the other out of the game area first. Initiative got rolled and the ogre charges first. Ana, tries to get out the way skids and falls but as the ogre reaches him he attempts to trip him. he fails to trip the creature but the ogre falls on him anyway. he then presses his feet to the ogre's belly and launches him(more like rolls) off of him and out of the ring and won! anyway before all that happened and while i was placing my bet, i asked the DM what kind of odds would I be getting. she said 1000 to 1. so when I won I received a thousand gold pieces. That's all fine and dandy. my problem is this, the DM mentioned somehting like not giving my character any treasure for a while because of his tremendous luck. she hasn't actually done anything yet but I don't feel she should be doing anything at all about my win since it was sheer luck and not ever likely to happen again. What I would like to know is what kind of argument i could propose to my DM that would allow me to keep all my gold and still receive treasure like the rest of the party Quite frankly, it's not up to the DM if you get treasure or not. It's up to the other PCs in the group to cut you into a share or leave you hanging dry. So, unless the DM is going to stiff the entire group and not drop any treasure at all, he really can't stop you from getting it, at least not without horrible metagaming and lousy DMing. Also, if the DM isn't prepared for you to get ahead, he shouldn't be offering 1000 to 1 odds on anything.
#20 greebo69 May 15, 2009 11:51:01	Quite frankly, it's not up to the DM if you get treasure or not. It's up to the other PCs in the group to cut you into a share or leave you hanging dry. So, unless the DM is going to stiff the entire group and not drop any treasure at all, he really can't stop you from getting it, at least not without horrible metagaming and lousy DMing. Also, if the DM isn't prepared for you to get ahead, he shouldn't be offering 1000 to 1 odds on anything. But it *IS* up to the DM whether the char gets the $ or not. But there were lots of ways the DM *could* have dealt with what she considered to be her mistake in a way that didn't scream "I'M PUNISHING YOU FOR MY FAILURE TO THINK AHEAD". Prior to prize awarding, there could have been a major robbery (Arena's 11 - the movie). The official in charge of the $ could have embezzled it (Baron Madoff). The bookies could have declared the game rigged (We're gonna make you an offa you don wanna refuze)... The biggest mistake, IMO, that the DM made was what sounds to have been simply an arbitrary: "You get 1001 odds...wtf you won? .. no you can't have the $$!" w/o no actual game hook, whatsoever.
#21 Maxperson May 15, 2009 12:00:06	But it *IS* up to the DM whether the char gets the $ or not. How? DM: The ogres had 800 gold pieces. PC's: There's 4 of us, so that's 200 each. DM: Sorry, PC #4 got the 1000 gold, you can't give him any. That's just horrible DMing. The DM has no business metagaming a nonsensical command into the game like that. Yes, the DM could do that, but if I was in any game where the DM did such a thing, that would be my last game with that DM. The DM has no actual control over how the the PCs split their treasure. But there were lots of ways the DM *could* have dealt with what she considered to be her mistake in a way that didn't scream "I'M PUNISHING YOU FOR MY FAILURE TO THINK AHEAD". Prior to prize awarding, there could have been a major robbery (Arena's 11 - the movie). The official in charge of the $ could have embezzled it (Baron Madoff). The bookies could have declared the game rigged (We're gonna make you an offa you don wanna refuze)... True, but he didn't. This DM ought to suck it up, especially since 1000 gold isn't going to break the game.
#22 greebo69 May 15, 2009 14:14:25	How? DM: The ogres had 800 gold pieces. PC's: There's 4 of us, so that's 200 each. DM: Sorry, PC #4 got the 1000 gold, you can't give him any. I thought the 1000 gold in question was the 1000 gold he got by betting on himself, not ogre loot. If the ogre had the gold ON him, well, the ogre had 800 gold but the crowd of people rushing to cheer your amazing, out of nowhere victory obscures the ogre from sight. WHen you finally manage to get to the ogre, the pouch you saw a moment ago is gone.... I'm not disagreeing with you in sentiment - the DM promised 1000 gold reward for victory then reneged. The character has been cheated. What's wrong about the DM's action, however, is that the character has, as you say, been meta-cheated. If the character had been *game* cheated, the character might be able to seek justice in game.
#23 Maxperson May 15, 2009 19:30:27	I thought the 1000 gold in question was the 1000 gold he got by betting on himself, not ogre loot. If the ogre had the gold ON him, well, the ogre had 800 gold but the crowd of people rushing to cheer your amazing, out of nowhere victory obscures the ogre from sight. WHen you finally manage to get to the ogre, the pouch you saw a moment ago is gone.... It was. He then went on to tell us that the DM in question was going to keep him from gaining any further gold until the others caught up to him. That's what I'm saying is wrong. If the party kills some orcs in the next game session, the DM will have to step in and tell them that they can't divide up the gold in character the way they normally would. I'm not disagreeing with you in sentiment - the DM promised 1000 gold reward for victory then reneged. The character has been cheated. What's wrong about the DM's action, however, is that the character has, as you say, been meta-cheated. If the character had been *game* cheated, the character might be able to seek justice in game. True. There are ways to get around what happened, but the DMs stated actions on this are grossly inappropriate.
#24 thorn-wychkin May 15, 2009 23:42:19	thanks for all your replies guys. I think I'm just gonna find some way that pleases me to get rid of the gold as fast as possible to prevent her from ******* me off in the future.
#25 kouk May 16, 2009 1:13:33	DMs make mistakes all the time. It's just that with a little practice, most of the mistakes are invisible to players. This particular DM made a mistake to grant paying odds in the first place if there was no willingness to hand out that money, and another mistake by perhaps "plotting" to counteract it in heavy-handed ways (or arguably, by intimating to the player it was a mistake). So, two to three mistakes. Not a big deal in the scheme of things, especially if the DM is somewhat new, or at least new to your group. DMs usually put in a lot more time and work into the games, so it's not really that terrible if they screw up occasionally. A more elegant solution would probably be to chalk it up to a mistake and if it was something the DM felt strongly about, to think of ways to correct it in the future rather than somewhat immediately. It doesn't have to be as blatant as "No, you can't take any of these coins now." After seeing what the PC does with it, it's simple enough to just account for the money as already being "given out" for the level. If using random treasure then there's really no control anyway, and if not using random then you can figure out the wealth by level guidelines and just reduce it from there. If the PC bought a +1 weapon, then easy: You don't have to place for that PC the next magic weapon for the current level, just try to make sure others have stuff they can use. At level 2, you can go back to normal distribution. If the group uses some kind of buy-value system of handing out loot as opposed to an as-needed system, then it may just be best to let it slide. 1,000gp isn't a big deal.
#26 ace_of_time May 16, 2009 9:43:27	You could just buy a wand of cure light wounds for the party to use. That should bring the gold wealth down. Belt of healing if you are allowed that book. MIC
#27 MrCustomer May 16, 2009 12:15:24	thanks for all your replies guys. I think I'm just gonna find some way that pleases me to get rid of the gold as fast as possible to prevent her from ******* me off in the future. It's probably best to work with the DM (and of course have the DM work with the players) and help them correct such mistakes. There are ways to correct his mistake here in a way that is favourable to your character. A large donation to a church or a gift to a Noble running a charity are ways that garnor favour to your character from those organizations that can be used in the future, but also solves the DM's problem. Spending the money on non-adventuring ways also does this. Buying your mother a new house with the money is both sensible, but also has no in-game benifit. It solves the DM's problem nicely and you get a nice house.
#28 thorn-wychkin May 16, 2009 13:35:20	anything I do with the gold will have to benefit me in some way at some point. yeah i'm a team player but i'm not stupid to throw away what normal people in that world take 10 years to earn. my character despite being a kid isn't that stupid either. You could just buy a wand of cure light wounds for the party to use. That should bring the gold wealth down. I don't think any of us are gonna be divine casters. wouldn't we just end up fizzling most of those charges? Belt of healing if you are allowed that book. MIC what does belt of healing do
#29 kuonji May 16, 2009 14:43:47	Ahh! The problem lies with the DM, yes. But not in the manner you think. See, the DM should never say what their going to do concerning future treasure. Besides, in a best case scenario you've already got 1k gold. If you don't find a whole lot real soon, so what? It's not like you'll be hurting for $/gear. And if you do find "normal" treasure at this lv it's not going to really add much.... So really your arguments based upon info your character has no way of knowing. This is pretty much what I was thinking when I read the OP. PCs pull of the most amazing things all the time, so if I found myself in a situation where I felt I over-rewarded the player(s) I'd skim a little treasure here and there, behind the scenes, till I felt it balanced out. What I wouldn't do is tell the PCs that I was doing so.
#30 ace_of_time May 17, 2009 1:41:51	If I remember right it has three charges that cast cure lights wounds. Recharges daily. it like 750. It is in the Magic Item comp 3.5 book. You can use UMD skill to use wands if you have a player with a rogue or the ultimate UDM class Artificer from eberron. (most DM's don't let that one in the games.)
#31 ashmanonar May 17, 2009 11:28:40	If I remember right it has three charges that cast cure lights wounds. Recharges daily. it like 750. It is in the Magic Item comp 3.5 book. You can use UMD skill to use wands if you have a player with a rogue or the ultimate UDM class Artificer from eberron. (most DM's don't let that one in the games.) The belt of healing has 3 charges; each charge, when spent, lets you heal 2d8+something damage on yourself or someone else. If you spend 2 charges, it increases to 3d8 + something. 3 charges, 4d8 + something. (I can't remember if you add level to it or not. Probably not, but there might be a + to the d8s.) -- Neglected to say it's 3 charges a day. (like the Eternal wands, where they have 2 charges a day).