Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 UnknownMourner Jun 17, 2009 22:34:24	For example, must you spend an action to retrieve a potion before the minor to consume it? Suppose I'm wielding a heavy shield and a sword. I want to switch to my dagger. If I'm not willing to drop the sword, must I stow and draw for two actions? What if I'm wielding the same stuff above, can I even drink a potion without putting my sword away? It could conceivably be 4 actions: put sword away, retrieve potion, drink potion, get sword back out. Shield + sword switching to bow: standard to stow shield, minor to stow sword, minor to get out bow? 3 actions? For simplicity I'm thinking of just having three hand-related actions: Standard action: change out everything in your hands if one item is a shield. Move action: change out everything in your hands assuming nothing is a shield. Minor action: draw or drink (no need to stow to drink, you use your toes if you must) or otherwise just fiddle with one item.
#2 Novacat Jun 17, 2009 23:04:01	First off, I would point out that a Light Shield still allows you to use the hand, just not attack with it. You wouldn't need to stow it in order to draw and use a potion. A heavy shield is somewhat more restrictive, though. Secondly, yes, you must spend one minor action to draw a potion, and a second to drink it. If you find yourself retrieving potions often, you may consider the Quick Draw feat, so that you can spend one action putting away your weapon, then retrieve your potion, then consume it, and still be able to draw your weapon again as soon as you need to attack. As for readying a bow, it would take all three action to put away a weapon and shield, then retrieve a bow. Again, if you have Quick Draw, you need not waste an action on drawing it, and if you find yourself doing this regularly, you could consider Quick Draw to be free actions in combat, and therefore very useful.
#3 slobo777a Jun 18, 2009 3:14:49	For simplicity I'm thinking of just having three hand-related actions: Standard action: change out everything in your hands if one item is a shield. Move action: change out everything in your hands assuming nothing is a shield. Minor action: draw or drink (no need to stow to drink, you use your toes if you must) or otherwise just fiddle with one item. In RAW: Yes you are supposed to count off the actions, and if you are doing something complex and juggling a lot of items to do what you want, then yes it can take a whole round or longer. Picking an item off the ground is also a Minor action, so if you are in a super hurry you could always drop some gear (a Free action) and pick it up again with a Minor action on your next turn. Your simplification seems reasonable to me, though it nerfs Quickdraw and small shields.
#4 UnknownMourner Jun 18, 2009 3:48:04	good point I'm usually finicky on this sort of thing, but the whole vibe of 4th is don't sweat the small stuff.
#5 gregt_314 Jun 18, 2009 3:51:33	4E potions are so next-to-useless as is that I'd never even considered the idea of having to get them out of your pack. It's hard enough to justify drinking a Potion of Cure Light Wounds as even a free action for most characters that raising the cost from a minor to a double minor just seems like a facepalm kind of thing.
#6 Novacat Jun 18, 2009 3:55:29	If you find yourself retrieving potions often, you may consider the Quick Draw feat, so that you can spend one action putting away your weapon, then retrieve your potion, then consume it, and still be able to draw your weapon again as soon as you need to attack. As for readying a bow, it would take all three action to put away a weapon and shield, then retrieve a bow. Again, if you have Quick Draw, you need not waste an action on drawing it, and if you find yourself doing this regularly, you could consider Quick Draw to be free actions in combat, and therefore very useful. I completely overlooked how the Quick Draw feat actually works when I posted this. If you have the feat, it would take one minor action to stow your weapon, a free action to retrieve the potion as part of the Minor Action to to use it, and then another free action to draw your weapon as part of the Standard Action to attack. So with that feat, you could drink your potion and attack in the same turn.
#7 visanidethdm Jun 18, 2009 4:06:05	4E potions are so next-to-useless as is that I'd never even considered the idea of having to get them out of your pack. It's hard enough to justify drinking a Potion of Cure Light Wounds as even a free action for most characters that raising the cost from a minor to a double minor just seems like a facepalm kind of thing. Care to explain? Potions are quite splendid in my experience.
#8 pluisjen Jun 18, 2009 4:21:21	In our game we have potion belts, that allow us to stash one potion that we can retrieve with a free action, with others in the belt that require a minor action to grab. I'm not sure if it's a house rule or in some book though... But since we're on the retrieving questions anyway, if you carry a Twohanded weapon, do you need an action to release your grip on it to draw a potion? Or to grab the weapon again so you can attack with it? Since I have a quarterstaff, can I just grab a potion, drink it, and then attack without spending actions on readjusting my weapon?
#9 Novacat Jun 18, 2009 4:22:50	Care to explain? Potions are quite splendid in my experience. Many people find them useless because they don't, on average, restore as many HP as you would get from just using a Healing Surge normally. They fail to see the utility in being able to restore more HP in emergency situations than would otherwise be possible. Once the healer runs out of heals, and you've already blown your Second Wind, those extra 10 HP for a minor action start to look pretty appealing.
#10 Novacat Jun 18, 2009 4:24:10	In our game we have potion belts, that allow us to stash one potion that we can retrieve with a free action, with others in the belt that require a minor action to grab. I'm not sure if it's a house rule or in some book though... That's a house-rule. But since we're on the retrieving questions anyway, if you carry a Twohanded weapon, do you need an action to release your grip on it to draw a potion? Or to grab the weapon again so you can attack with it? Negatory. Since I have a quarterstaff, can I just grab a potion, drink it, and then attack without spending actions on readjusting my weapon? Correct.
#11 gregt_314 Jun 18, 2009 4:36:21	Care to explain? Potions are quite splendid in my experience. Basic Healing Potion - restores 10 HP, uses up one of your healing surges, takes a minor action to drink, costs you - I forget, maybe 500gp? So the advantage of it over using a second wind is: * takes a minor action instead of a standard (not an advantage for dwarves) * can do it more than once an encounter, if you have multiple potions * can do it in addition to a second wind * restores more HP than an unbuffed healing surge for characters with less than 40 HP. The disadvantages are: * heals less than an unbuffed healing surge for characters with 40+ HP * heals less than a buffed healing surge for almost all characters * costs frikkin gold That's a severe disappointment for anyone used to healing pots from previous editions (which were basically Cure Light Wounds in a can). It's not totally useless but it's not exactly what you'd expect from an item that is (a) magical and (b) one-shot. If you're using retrieving actions, it now costs two minors to use it, which is (normally) worse than the standard action for second wind, so it's now really for those parties that have used up all their healers' heals, have used their second winds, and still need more healing. I mean, if nothing else, compare it to Dwarven Armour, which: * heals you * as a free action * is non-consumable * also counts as magical armour * is only a couple of item levels higher
#12 Novacat Jun 18, 2009 5:00:29	Basic Healing Potion - restores 10 HP, uses up one of your healing surges, takes a minor action to drink, costs you - I forget, maybe 500gp? 50gp, actually. So the advantage of it over using a second wind is: * takes a minor action instead of a standard (not an advantage for dwarves) * can do it more than once an encounter, if you have multiple potions * can do it in addition to a second wind * can do it in addition to any healing your party healer can provide * restores more HP than an unbuffed healing surge for characters with less than 40 HP. The bolded (and added) lines are the important ones. The disadvantages are: * heals less than an unbuffed healing surge for characters with 40+ HP * heals less than a buffed healing surge for almost all characters * costs frikkin gold Dire circumstances call for dire measures. That's a severe disappointment for anyone used to healing pots from previous editions (which were basically Cure Light Wounds in a can). It's not totally useless but it's not exactly what you'd expect from an item that is (a) magical and (b) one-shot. There's your issue. Potions aren't the HP-candy that they were in previous editions. They now serve a different function: emergency healing. Gone are the days of "buying hit points." If you're using retrieving actions, it now costs two minors to use it, which is (normally) worse than the standard action for second wind, so it's now really for those parties that have used up all their healers' heals, have used their second winds, and still need more healing. Unless you have Quick Draw, but otherwise, yes. I mean, if nothing else, compare it to Dwarven Armour, which: * heals you * as a free action * is non-consumable * also counts as magical armour * is only a couple of item levels higher * can only be used once per day * costs a minimum of more than 5 times as much * can only be used by characters who wear heavy armor
#13 inigocarmine Jun 18, 2009 8:24:42	That's a severe disappointment for anyone used to healing pots from previous editions (which were basically Cure Light Wounds in a can). It's not totally useless but it's not exactly what you'd expect from an item that is (a) magical and (b) one-shot. In 3.x edition, the potion of CLW: - Cost the same. One could say the value of a piece of gold has changed, but I wouldn't say its done so by any where near an order of magnitude. - Cost a move action to retrieve, cost a standard action to drink (and provoked an AoO). This means you couldn't do much/anything else during the turn, and god forbid if you were sword and board. -Healed 1d8+1; average 5.5 points. slightly better at the lowest levels in 3.5 (where you started with far less HP. Most people I know that didn't have a divine casting (multi)class, or even the ranger dip, would keep a single potion of Cure on them. Otherwise, wands were totally the way to go. I find potions to be slightly better in 4th. They are not meant for frequent use. Its for bad situations where you're down on your second wind and heals from the leader are unavailable for whatever reason; and they still leave you enough actions to make an attack or try to maneuver slightly.
#14 Brys Jun 18, 2009 13:08:24	I find that we use healing potions most often to prop up characters that were knocked out after we were out of other healing. One character sacrifices their turn to get the other back on their feet, but it prevents them from having to roll a death savings throw (plus pulling someone from the brink of death at personal risk is pretty much the definition of heroic).
#15 person34 Jun 18, 2009 13:25:48	Also, keep in mind there are better healing potions that have the magic item level of 15 and 25, that restore health (more than 10) and grant a saving throw. Before people complain about the level, keep in mind that the lowest level healing potion is level 5. So, its the equivelent to 50 gold to a paragon tier character.
#16 warfeind Jun 18, 2009 13:42:15	Are group kinda agreed with it sucks to blow a healing surge to use a magic item that kinda does the same thing. Yes I understand the benefits of potions apposed to healiong surges. Didn't make me like it anymore. We just got rid of the healing surge cost and continued on. It's my game I play it the way I want and everyone else should do like wise. After all it's your game. You don't like something just fix it. Been like that in every edition I've played and I've played them all.