How do you guys feel about power-to-power imbalance? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How do you guys feel about power-to-power imbalance?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ostrakon
Oct 05, 2008 0:03:57 Let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to take a stab at 4E. I like 4E a lot, and one of the reasons why this is so is because I feel that no matter what class I play, I won't feel vastly superior or inferior unless I'm rolling exceptionally well or poorly. There are times when I might feel less useful (a Radiant Servant taking down an undead legion takes the splendor away from the rest of the party, and my paladin didn't feel too spectacular during a a minion-heavy series of encounter when there's a fire wizard in the party.) From a DM's perspective, all I have to do with my players is that "One of you should probably play some kind of leader" and whatever party they come up with will be fine.

But here's the thing. Inter-class balance is great. Intra-class balance seems pretty meh.

For example, I was leveling up my human cleric of the Raven Queen, to 2. At level 2, I saw a bunch of great utility spells, and I had a legitimately difficult decision to make. Sure, some of them seemed better overall, but they all seemed mostly useful.

So I did my usual level-up thing, and started looking at powers in my future. This is when I ran into something I thought was kind of odd.

My cleric is kind of a hybrid weapon/lazer build, so I can pull off both the STR and WIS based attacks without a problem. When I was looking at the level 7 cleric encounter powers, I asked myself: why would anyone ever take Break the Spirit over Searing Light? It seems to me that Searing Light is almost always better unless I have a ridiculously high CHA or I'm against an already blind opponent. Moreover, why would anyone pick Awe Strike over Strengthen the Faithful? I can't think of too many circumstances where I wouldn't want the former over the latter.

For some reason, I feel this happens a lot in 4E. As an optimizer (I can't change who I am, lol), I can't help but feel a lot of my choices are made for me because there's a clear "best". On the other hand, nobody else in my playgroup complains about it, and they often pick powers that cause me to restrain myself from protesting their gimpiness.

So, is this a problem with me, or is it a legitimate complaint? I'm the kind of player who loves flavor, but believes that good flavor doesn't preclude me from making a mechanically good character.
#2
fenrir7139
Oct 05, 2008 0:36:17 Hmmm... Well, I think it's a legitimate complaint; that does seem kind of messed up. But at the same time, I'm not exactly an optimizer (Tiefling Ranger FTW!).
#3
kouk
Oct 05, 2008 3:02:36 It is a problem with certain classes/levels, I agree.

Sometimes, a certain power can be more useful if used in conjunction with other powers in your party, or if you have certain items/other abilities.

Some Arcane powers may be decent in a Wand but not as something you would want to really "know," but if they didn't exist on the list then you couldn't put it in a Wand.

Some powers are just bad though.
#4
battleaxefield
Oct 05, 2008 12:27:45 You're making the mistake that a lot of optimizers make, of not considering the rest of the party and the mix of opponents you will face. The reason there are different classes and different powers is that you face different enemies. Some kinds of enemies a cleric is better suited to than any other class. Other kinds of enemies are better suited to other classes.

One strength of clerics is their ability to attack vs will. There are enemies with high reflex defenses and low wills that a cleric can hit easily when his comrades are having a hard time. You're assuming you're going to hit when comparing the effects. You don't help the party if you have a power with more powerful effects, but still have just as hard time hitting with it as the rest of the party does.
#5
cronaxtheunsane
Oct 05, 2008 15:20:43
why would anyone ever take Break the Spirit over Searing Light? It seems to me that Searing Light is almost always better unless I have a ridiculously high CHA or I'm against an already blind opponent. Moreover, why would anyone pick Awe Strike over Strengthen the Faithful?

While I do agree that certain power choices are inherently inferior (see Great Leap), and more will become so as more splat books are released, those that you mention are not the best examples. As BattleaxeField points out, Break the Spirit and Awe Strike both target Will, which if you look over the monster manual as a whole is more often than not a monster's lowest defense.

As Awe Strike is a 'Weapon' attack targetting Will, you have a nearly guaranteed hit against most foes which is can be important for various reasons (Hitting a troll with a flaming weapon, making sure your Warpriest mark goes off, etc.).

Although the penalty imposed by Break the Spirit will generally be lower that that imposed by Searing Light's blindness unless you invest heavily in charisma, you have to keep in mind that you will sometimes be fighting opponents with blindsight and that blindness does not stack with any invisibility or concealment your allies are already benefiting from.
#6
Titanium_Dragon
Oct 07, 2008 21:49:42
My cleric is kind of a hybrid weapon/lazer build, so I can pull off both the STR and WIS based attacks without a problem. When I was looking at the level 7 cleric encounter powers, I asked myself: why would anyone ever take Break the Spirit over Searing Light? It seems to me that Searing Light is almost always better unless I have a ridiculously high CHA or I'm against an already blind opponent. Moreover, why would anyone pick Awe Strike over Strengthen the Faithful? I can't think of too many circumstances where I wouldn't want the former over the latter.

Um...

Well, you're missing something important in both your comparisons.

Break the Spirit imposes a large penalty to attack rolls. A -5 penalty to attack rolls (20 charisma) is equivalent to the penalty for blindness, and a Wisdom/Charisma based cleric could have that high of charisma. Even someone who only started with 16 charisma will hit 20 charisma at level 14, long before they replace it. Also, yes, its not dependent on blinding people, which is valuable because some monsters don't need to see, though this is a pretty minor point.

Secondly, and more imporatantly, is the fact that Break the Spirit targets Will, whereas Searing Light targets Reflex. Will is the weakest defense, and Break the Spirit is more likely to hit most monsters than Searing Light.

Thirdly, it does more damage.

Overall, I'd actually say its a pretty balanced choice; I could see taking either. Clearly, as you're bolstering Strength and Wisdom, you want to take Searing Light, but for a laser cleric Break the Spirit is an attractive option, especially given there's a pretty good chance they don't have a Will targeting attack yet.

Awe Strike and Strengthen the Faithful do VERY different things. Both are powerful.

Awe Strike attacks Will, again making it more likely to hit and again very likely being your only Will-targeting encounter power.

Second, Awe Strike is very powerful; if you immobilize a foe, then shift away from them, unless they have a ranged attack you've basically stunned them. A little situational, but very powerful, especially if you have a polearm.

Is Strengthen the Faithful awesome? Certainly. But on the other hand, do you really need that extra healing? There is a point at which a cleric can have too much healing.

This isn't to say the problem doesn't exist in general, but in this case, I don't think this is really a valid argument, as I don't feel that either power is underpowered and I can see taking all four powers.
#7
mad_miso
Oct 10, 2008 14:59:58 I agree to an extent, but I think this most often crops up in the context of your character moreso than the class as a whole. Every class typically gets about 3-4 power choices per level, and once you've filtered that for your stat distribution, class build, racial powers, ect, there often is just 1-2 clear choices. I think that's more a function of not having enough powers moreso than power imbalance, though.

Not to say those imbalances don't exist, but if you're playing a heavy blades specialized fighter, or an Int/Cha focused Feylock, then most of your power choices are going to be no-brainers.

Interestingly enough, I find myself agonizing over utility power choices more than anything.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ostrakon Oct 05, 2008 0:03:57	Let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to take a stab at 4E. I like 4E a lot, and one of the reasons why this is so is because I feel that no matter what class I play, I won't feel vastly superior or inferior unless I'm rolling exceptionally well or poorly. There are times when I might feel less useful (a Radiant Servant taking down an undead legion takes the splendor away from the rest of the party, and my paladin didn't feel too spectacular during a a minion-heavy series of encounter when there's a fire wizard in the party.) From a DM's perspective, all I have to do with my players is that "One of you should probably play some kind of leader" and whatever party they come up with will be fine. But here's the thing. Inter-class balance is great. Intra-class balance seems pretty meh. For example, I was leveling up my human cleric of the Raven Queen, to 2. At level 2, I saw a bunch of great utility spells, and I had a legitimately difficult decision to make. Sure, some of them seemed better overall, but they all seemed mostly useful. So I did my usual level-up thing, and started looking at powers in my future. This is when I ran into something I thought was kind of odd. My cleric is kind of a hybrid weapon/lazer build, so I can pull off both the STR and WIS based attacks without a problem. When I was looking at the level 7 cleric encounter powers, I asked myself: why would anyone ever take Break the Spirit over Searing Light? It seems to me that Searing Light is almost always better unless I have a ridiculously high CHA or I'm against an already blind opponent. Moreover, why would anyone pick Awe Strike over Strengthen the Faithful? I can't think of too many circumstances where I wouldn't want the former over the latter. For some reason, I feel this happens a lot in 4E. As an optimizer (I can't change who I am, lol), I can't help but feel a lot of my choices are made for me because there's a clear "best". On the other hand, nobody else in my playgroup complains about it, and they often pick powers that cause me to restrain myself from protesting their gimpiness. So, is this a problem with me, or is it a legitimate complaint? I'm the kind of player who loves flavor, but believes that good flavor doesn't preclude me from making a mechanically good character.
#2 fenrir7139 Oct 05, 2008 0:36:17	Hmmm... Well, I think it's a legitimate complaint; that does seem kind of messed up. But at the same time, I'm not exactly an optimizer (Tiefling Ranger FTW!).
#3 kouk Oct 05, 2008 3:02:36	It is a problem with certain classes/levels, I agree. Sometimes, a certain power can be more useful if used in conjunction with other powers in your party, or if you have certain items/other abilities. Some Arcane powers may be decent in a Wand but not as something you would want to really "know," but if they didn't exist on the list then you couldn't put it in a Wand. Some powers are just bad though.
#4 battleaxefield Oct 05, 2008 12:27:45	You're making the mistake that a lot of optimizers make, of not considering the rest of the party and the mix of opponents you will face. The reason there are different classes and different powers is that you face different enemies. Some kinds of enemies a cleric is better suited to than any other class. Other kinds of enemies are better suited to other classes. One strength of clerics is their ability to attack vs will. There are enemies with high reflex defenses and low wills that a cleric can hit easily when his comrades are having a hard time. You're assuming you're going to hit when comparing the effects. You don't help the party if you have a power with more powerful effects, but still have just as hard time hitting with it as the rest of the party does.
#5 cronaxtheunsane Oct 05, 2008 15:20:43	why would anyone ever take Break the Spirit over Searing Light? It seems to me that Searing Light is almost always better unless I have a ridiculously high CHA or I'm against an already blind opponent. Moreover, why would anyone pick Awe Strike over Strengthen the Faithful? While I do agree that certain power choices are inherently inferior (see Great Leap), and more will become so as more splat books are released, those that you mention are not the best examples. As BattleaxeField points out, Break the Spirit and Awe Strike both target Will, which if you look over the monster manual as a whole is more often than not a monster's lowest defense. As Awe Strike is a 'Weapon' attack targetting Will, you have a nearly guaranteed hit against most foes which is can be important for various reasons (Hitting a troll with a flaming weapon, making sure your Warpriest mark goes off, etc.). Although the penalty imposed by Break the Spirit will generally be lower that that imposed by Searing Light's blindness unless you invest heavily in charisma, you have to keep in mind that you will sometimes be fighting opponents with blindsight and that blindness does not stack with any invisibility or concealment your allies are already benefiting from.
#6 Titanium_Dragon Oct 07, 2008 21:49:42	My cleric is kind of a hybrid weapon/lazer build, so I can pull off both the STR and WIS based attacks without a problem. When I was looking at the level 7 cleric encounter powers, I asked myself: why would anyone ever take Break the Spirit over Searing Light? It seems to me that Searing Light is almost always better unless I have a ridiculously high CHA or I'm against an already blind opponent. Moreover, why would anyone pick Awe Strike over Strengthen the Faithful? I can't think of too many circumstances where I wouldn't want the former over the latter. Um... Well, you're missing something important in both your comparisons. Break the Spirit imposes a large penalty to attack rolls. A -5 penalty to attack rolls (20 charisma) is equivalent to the penalty for blindness, and a Wisdom/Charisma based cleric could have that high of charisma. Even someone who only started with 16 charisma will hit 20 charisma at level 14, long before they replace it. Also, yes, its not dependent on blinding people, which is valuable because some monsters don't need to see, though this is a pretty minor point. Secondly, and more imporatantly, is the fact that Break the Spirit targets Will, whereas Searing Light targets Reflex. Will is the weakest defense, and Break the Spirit is more likely to hit most monsters than Searing Light. Thirdly, it does more damage. Overall, I'd actually say its a pretty balanced choice; I could see taking either. Clearly, as you're bolstering Strength and Wisdom, you want to take Searing Light, but for a laser cleric Break the Spirit is an attractive option, especially given there's a pretty good chance they don't have a Will targeting attack yet. Awe Strike and Strengthen the Faithful do VERY different things. Both are powerful. Awe Strike attacks Will, again making it more likely to hit and again very likely being your only Will-targeting encounter power. Second, Awe Strike is very powerful; if you immobilize a foe, then shift away from them, unless they have a ranged attack you've basically stunned them. A little situational, but very powerful, especially if you have a polearm. Is Strengthen the Faithful awesome? Certainly. But on the other hand, do you really need that extra healing? There is a point at which a cleric can have too much healing. This isn't to say the problem doesn't exist in general, but in this case, I don't think this is really a valid argument, as I don't feel that either power is underpowered and I can see taking all four powers.
#7 mad_miso Oct 10, 2008 14:59:58	I agree to an extent, but I think this most often crops up in the context of your character moreso than the class as a whole. Every class typically gets about 3-4 power choices per level, and once you've filtered that for your stat distribution, class build, racial powers, ect, there often is just 1-2 clear choices. I think that's more a function of not having enough powers moreso than power imbalance, though. Not to say those imbalances don't exist, but if you're playing a heavy blades specialized fighter, or an Int/Cha focused Feylock, then most of your power choices are going to be no-brainers. Interestingly enough, I find myself agonizing over utility power choices more than anything.