We fought a soldier (Umberhulk) who had an At-Will, Minor Action, blast 3 (or maybe 5, can't remember) Attack with +16 vs. Will. It pushed us 4 or 5 squares, if I remember right, and dazed us. He could do this every round and was usually hitting on 6's! WTF?
I had a Dwarven Cleric but am making an Inspiring Warlord instead hoping this helps counteract the problems. For reference, our party make-up has been
Elven Tempest Fighter
Dragonborn Barbarian
Human Starlock
Eladrin Shielding Swordmage
Warforged Brutal Scoundrel Rogue
Dwarven Melee Cleric (who will now be the Dragonlord Inspiring Warlord)
Your dm is a cruel one.
I take no responsibility for what else he hits you with though...
Umberhulk is broken and yes it has a minor action AoE slide/daze.
Your dm is a cruel one.
Umberhulk is not broken. It's simply very good at what it does. If you don't want to fight one, don't go underground. Alternatively, try ranged weapons. They work well.
Both clerics and warlords have a number of powers which allow allies to make saving throws. I suggest you take a few of those powers to help out your dazed/stunned allies.
You guys lived. I'd keep it in perspective, personally.
The powers and magic items you ignored that granted plusses and immediate saves are now starting to look pretty good. The DM has found your weakness and is going to exploit it. And it didn't take much to do it.:P
If it's status effects in general that annoy you, then pick up items/powers that effect your saves. The Swordmage has a stance that automatically ends one effect that a save can end at some point. Inspiring warlords have plenty of save granting abilites.
I would still talk to the DM (as a group) if you do not enjoy fighting encounters with lots of daze/stun. Don't tell him to take away all the daze/stun monsters, tell him your feelings about such encounter and ask him if he could decrease the frequency.
@Etarnon - Is survival the only way you measure happiness with DnD? Sure we survived, but it was not fun at all.
@Wizarddog - What makes you think we ignored those items? I can't speak for everyone, but at least two of our characters each have Circlet of 2nd Chances, Verve Armor, and Amulet of Resolution. We do protect ourselves from saving throws, but 3 dailies does not help much when you are attacked 20ish times a day with an effect that dazes/stuns. Also we have taken Iron Will to help out our Will Defense too. We are doing what we can to combat the ridiculous amount of stuns/dazes.
@Dkaze - When you are stunned/dazed, it is hard to move into a better position. Also, the particular monsters we fought this past week (Vrocks) did burst attacks, not blast attacks. So surrounding them just makes it worse.
@Irenicus_Jon - Clerics do not really get powers that grant saving throws, especially melee clerics. My cleric did have Sacred Flame, but it really sucks to be a melee cleric and have to spend every action using Sacred Flame. And if I miss, I do not get to grant a saving throw. This is why I am switching to an Inspiring Warlord. I hope this will really help.
I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. What I am gathering though is that there is not much more we, as players, can do. We should probably talk to our DM about the amount of monsters he uses which stun/daze us.
1) a Blinded creature cannot use it's gaze attack
2) a target that is already blind is immune to gaze attacks
You might also consider trying to stay out of the targets gaze range and not bunching up if that can be avoided.
These encounters are not unbeatable, they might require a different approach than the straight combat; requiring hit and run tatics and ambush.
While railing on the DM on the encounter makeup is legit I think in the circumstances within the game. If this was an invasion of Umberhulks, then our group better be the ones who can handle it.
;)
@Dkaze - When you are stunned/dazed, it is hard to move into a better position. Also, the particular monsters we fought this past week (Vrocks) did burst attacks, not blast attacks. So surrounding them just makes it worse.
It seems like the DM is going out of their way to select monsters with action denying effects, probably in response to tactics that the group has used. How often do you come up against these monsters anyway? There are plenty of monsters at your level that don't stun/daze.
It seems like the DM is going out of their way to select monsters with action denying effects, probably in response to tactics that the group has used. How often do you come up against these monsters anyway? There are plenty of monsters at your level that don't stun/daze.
According to him he justs picks monsters somewhat at random so long as they make a good group compilation. He doesn't really pay attention to their abilities when creating the encounters.
I think throughout all of level 11 (10ish encounters) we fought one encounter in which there were no monsters that dazed or stunned.
I haven't actually looked myself, but you say there are lots of monsters that don't have action denying abilities? If so, we should ask him to look more into those. To me, there is nothing worse than not being able to play my character. I would rather have him die gloriously with me being able to put up a good fight the whole time than to survive 10 encounters in which 9 of them I was dazed the entire encounter.
Maybe this hits me extra hard because I do play the fighter (there are 3 players who each play two characters), and spending most of the battle dazed basically means I can not do anything. Not being able to take immediate or opportunity actions is really, Really, REALLY annoying to a fighter. Especially when it literally happens about 75% of a battle, each battle.
The other problem is that no matter how many saves you get with however high a bonus, if you're hit with a daze or stun "until the end of next turn", you're just stuck with it. Unlike with the save form, an ally can't grant you a save before your turn comes up and then you're safe on your turn. Annoying to say the least.
Yeah, this has been a big problem. On top of this, things that do Daze, save ends, but are At-Will (such as the Umberhulk), means that you get dazed, save at the end of your turn, but the get dazed again the next turn. Unless you have an Inspiring Warlord to give you a free save on your turn, you are perma-dazed.
(And some DMs complained in the other board that they can't find challenging monsters...)
The Vrock is not so bad...he can stun once (then needs to check for recharge) and daze (save ends) when he gets bloodied.
Neither monster is unbeatable, though. The hulk falls to ranged and controller powers (or a stun-pally) and is suceptible to being surrounded (and charged). The Vrock's power works practically only on people in melee with him. It recharges only on a 6, so it is not likely to get much use beyond round #1. His daze power works but once.
Being dazed doesn't hinder you to spread out and limit how many the monster can catch next round, btw. Or to whack it with your single action
We have recently made it to the Paragon tier, and just reached level 12. So, having made it one entire level, I can honestly say my characters spent a good 50-75% of the tier either Dazed or Stunned. What the heck are we supposed to do as players? We are not being allowed to play our characters because we spend half of our actions (if not more), being dazed or stunned. Sometimes we are only blind.
We fought a soldier (Umberhulk) who had an At-Will, Minor Action, blast 3 (or maybe 5, can't remember) Attack with +16 vs. Will. It pushed us 4 or 5 squares, if I remember right, and dazed us. He could do this every round and was usually hitting on 6's! WTF?
I had a Dwarven Cleric but am making an Inspiring Warlord instead hoping this helps counteract the problems. For reference, our party make-up has been
Elven Tempest Fighter
Dragonborn Barbarian
Human Starlock
Eladrin Shielding Swordmage
Warforged Brutal Scoundrel Rogue
Dwarven Melee Cleric (who will now be the Dragonlord Inspiring Warlord)
Did you make it to 11th level by killing fluffy bunnies? This is very silly. The ala-carte method of campaigning does not work. Players are always going to complain when they fight monsters who have a chance to defeat them. I do it when I play.
Me-We are 3rd level and you are sicking a blackguard on us? ...totally unfair!
DM-I could pick randomly from the Fiend Folio!
Me-Ur, never mind. /averts gaze of the DM
Players do not get to choose their opponents! Etarnon is correct. You survived, received experience points and gained a level. You also learned how awesome (not broken) Umber-Hulks, are so when you start YOUR campaign, you will know how to use them.
I agree with the rest of the posts who think you should change your tactics. And I will go a little further and advise you to have a player only meeting to discuss tactics rather than speaking to the DM.
The Umber is a big nasty, this is true, but like any big nasty it can be beaten. Make the tank in the party a sacrifical lamb and mark the Umber Hulk, keep the rest of the party out of the range of the gaze. The Hulk will have a choice to make in regards to gazing the fighter, beating of him, or going against the mark to attack the others. I get the impression that the only real issue is the tactics used prior to the Paragon tier need some refining so as to adapt to the new threats that are out there. Things only get nastier from here, you know.
Did you make it to 11th level by killing fluffy bunnies? This is very silly. The ala-carte method of campaigning does not work. Players are always going to complain when they fight monsters who have a chance to defeat them. I do it when I play.
Me-We are 3rd level and you are sicking a blackguard on us? ...totally unfair!
DM-I could pick randomly from the Fiend Folio!
Me-Ur, never mind. /averts gaze of the DM
Players do not get to choose their opponents! Etarnon is correct. You survived, received experience points and gained a level. You also learned how awesome (not broken) Umber-Hulks, are so when you start YOUR campaign, you will know how to use them.
I agree with the rest of the posts who think you should change your tactics. And I will go a little further and advise you to have a player only meeting to discuss tactics rather than speaking to the DM.
Thats a strawman. the OP feels that the daze / stun effects he comes up against are robbing to many actions, which leads him to not have fun.
The complaint is not that encounter's are to tough, its that they rob to many actions of player characters.
Umberhulk is broken and yes it has a minor action AoE slide/daze.
Your dm is a cruel one.
Wtf does this have to do with the DM? Maybe the player was just dumb and kept putting himself in position to get knocked out.
Wtf does this have to do with the DM? Maybe the player was just dumb and kept putting himself in position to get knocked out.
I really don't think it was the DM at all but instead the party. Sure the DM had a cheese trick up his sleeve and wasn't backing down from it, but the party could have devised a way to get around it rather quickly.
Thats a strawman. the OP feels that the daze / stun effects he comes up against are robbing to many actions, which leads him to not have fun.
The complaint is not that encounter's are to tough, its that they rob to many actions of player characters.
You may call it what you will. The real issue here is that the player is complaining the monsters are too hard. He doesn't want monsters which can stun or daze. His next post will be about monsters with DR and/or SR.