Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gamersince1980 Feb 11, 2014 5:53:46	In the 3.5 game that I play in regularly, one of the my party members cast a maximized spell that dealt 60 points of negative energy damage to multiple targets, with a save allowed for half damage. Our group averages 5th level, but I don't know this character's specific class or level (in our group, peeking at character sheets is verboten).   He claims to be a bard, and I've been told that the player is using material from the Book of Vile Darkness and I know he has access to all of the Complete books (Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, etc, as well as Divine Might, etc)   What combination of class, stats, skills, feats, and/or spells would allow a level 5 (or possibly 6) bard or other spellcaster to cast such a spell?   I'd have posted this in CharOp, but everything I saw there was for 4th ed.
#2 Krusk Feb 11, 2014 14:35:22	Closer... http://community.wizards.com/forums/103131   There are still a decent ammount of people around there who can probably help.   Right off the bat, a bard can't cast maximize spells if he is 6th level. Maximize rasies a spells level by 3, and he only has level 2 spells. 0+3=3 and 3>2.    I'd question how legal it was, but I'd also debate how great it really is and how much effort it would be worth to prove him wrong.    If a cleric 6, he could have enough feats to take Divine Metamagic Maximize, and Maximize. This would allow him to throw out 1 or 2 maximized inflict serious wounds. Which do negative energy damage, and allow him to hit 3d8*1.5 + 6 damage. = 42 damage. Thats not mass, and not enough damage even if he rolls max, but its the closest I could think of. Especially without access to spell compendium.
#3 DaBeerds Feb 11, 2014 15:52:58	Krusk wrote:
#4 gamersince1980 Feb 11, 2014 19:03:38	Krusk: Thanks for the link. If my curiosity doesn't get satisfied here soon, I'll try there.   After doing some research, I suspect the spell was Dance of Ruin (Bard 2, Book of Vile Darkness, p.90) which deals 2d20 damage to all non-demons in the area. It takes a full round to cast, which fits the circumstances, but it centers around the caster, which does not match the event which transpired. Could be a homebrew variant.   One of the other players said he may have used a feat which allows a spell to be maximized once per day without adding to the spell level. If anyone could provide a name and/or book for that feat, I'd appreciate it.  That plus empower spell would add 50% to the damage, although I was fairly sure that an empowered, maximized spell did maximum damage plus half of regular, rolled damage (in other words, 40 + 2d20/2, rather than 40+20). I may be wrong about that.    If it were maximized for free (which I'm skeptical of) and then empowered, it's effectively a 4th level spell. If he were 6th level and had a way of boosting his caster level by even just one, then it would be feasible, provided I'm mistaken about empower+maximize.   The legality is a secondary concern - I'm not interested in calling him out on it unless he does it again - I'm curious how he did it. Mainly when I posted initially, I was incredulous - that much damage seems very un-bard-like, but I guess Vile Darkness added significant damage capability. Monte Cook, screwin' with the balance, as usual.
#5 Krusk Feb 12, 2014 14:45:39	Well an empowered dance of ruin does 60 if he rolls max. So thats basically it there. Maybe hes got a wand of lesser empower or something?   My rules legality question was mostly because at first glance, a bard can't use spells of that level on his own. If thats suspect a lot of it probably is. Adding in random items can help limit those concerns.    (60 damage at level 6 is not super strong, its more what I'd hope you can do at a minimum. For instance a raging Orc lion barbarian who maxed strength. 18+4 str +4 rage = 26 str. He uses a great sword for 2d6+14 + 6 power attack twice a round = 27*2 = 54 average. Now if he adds magic weapons, rolls well, or took any of the power attack multiplier feats its even higher)
#6 Saelorn Feb 19, 2014 15:07:13	gamersince1980 wrote:
#7 MrCustomer Feb 22, 2014 22:06:55	There is in either Complete Mage or Complete Arcane a prestige class that allows a bard to add some wizard spells to his spell list. If he chose this and addd a wizard spell to his list he could maximize it with a meta-magic rod of maximize spells.    Even withoit this Bards, like rogues, have the skill, Use Magical Device, which would allow them to use magic items such as a wizard wand or an arcane scroll to cast a spell. Which is what he is probably doing here, since you describe either a fireball or lightning bolt spell cast by a 10th level wizard and maximized. Although risky, he could be casting the spell off a scroll. This is a class feature.   the only issue i possibly see here is that he may not be calculating the proper DC for  Use Magical Device in regards to this scroll, a 6th level spell cast by a 10th level caster, would be a DC of 30. A Bard at level 5 could have 8 ranks in UMD, a +2 from decipher script, and say + 4 charisma bonus at best. That is a + 14 UMD roll so he would have to roll 16 or higher or waste the scroll (ignoring  any dangers of mishaps) he would also need an ability score to match, but since it is a sorceror spell he could use his charisma. It is certainly possible. It is a cost of at least 750gp for each scroll, so that alone is prohibitive at level 5 to do very often.