Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 imbecile Dec 26, 2009 16:16:41	Hi all, I play a rogue in a pretty small group of 3. We basically take turns DMing, and theres a minor dispute over the stealth rules. Essentially the others believe that if I dodge behind a wall, there is no way that my character can get stealth as the enemies have spotted my moving behind cover. They may not be able to see me, but they wont be surpised when I pop out and hit em with a sneak attack. Admittedly this is fairly realistic, but its making combat advantage at range (I use deft strike) very hard to get. I think theres a feeling that I am in some way abusing the rules to give my character an unfair advantage, but I feel that denying the rogue the benefit of stealth in combat is pretty crucial and will make the Character damned hard to make work. I'm simply not tough enough to slug it out hand to hand, and rely on flanking. Part of the problem could be that at low levels the rogue was doing good damage, though that seems to be tapering off now we are level 5 or so. I've posted the stealth rules to them and said that while things will be tricky for me, ultimately I bow to the DM's rulings :P Are they right? Should I still fight for the "proper" rules? Should I just go along with this as a home ruling? Cheers
#2 Neutronium_Dragon Dec 26, 2009 16:28:01	RAW, as long as you have total cover or total concealment, you can hide. It doesn't matter that they know where you went - they still can't tell what you're doing now that you're there. Yes, you should - or make it clear that if they're determined to push this houserule then your character will also change. There's no point in playing one that has been arbitrarily handicapped like that.
#3 imbecile Dec 26, 2009 16:33:47	Thanks. I'll give it a go, but I dont want to be labelled a rules-lawyer, piss anyone off, or risk making the game more serious than it should be. Still, it is making things hard. Any idea how I can sell the concept of a Character that drops out of sight behind a small wall, but can still somehow surpise everyone when he appears from behind the wall again :P
#4 Mad_Jack Dec 26, 2009 18:52:04	Thanks. I'll give it a go, but I dont want to be labelled a rules-lawyer, piss anyone off, or risk making the game more serious than it should be. Still, it is making things hard. Any idea how I can sell the concept of a Character that drops out of sight behind a small wall, but can still somehow surpise everyone when he appears from behind the wall again :P Very simple - they know you're behind the wall, but they have absolutely no idea when you're going to jump out at them, or at what level... You could be kneeling down, ready to lean out and shoot your crossbow. Or backing up to take a running start and dive halfway across the room before you roll to your feet and toss a dagger. You're not doing it to gain stealth - You're doing it to gain Combat Advantage. The point of gaining combat advantage from stealth in combat isn't that they're surprised because they don't know where you are. The point is... They don't have time to react to you jumping out at them.  They're in the middle of a fight, locked in combat with opponents trying to kill them, and in the heat of battle they can't spare the effort to keep their eyes on your hiding spot in order to be able to react quickly enough when you jump out at them. That's all that combat advantage is, a bonus to represent the fact that your opponent can't focus their full attention on you because they're otherwise occupied. Also, pointing out the rules in order to be able to use your character's abilities in the way they were intended to be used so that you're character isn't gimped in combat isn't being a rules lawyer. People throw that word around far too often...
#5 kryptonjedi Dec 27, 2009 13:13:15	If you stayed hidden for a round, I would allow you to gain stealth. That way your allies have had time to distract the baddies, making RP sense; and you have to decide whether the stealth advantage is worth not doing damage for a round, giving it some tactical/situational significance. Defender got it under control and you got time to sneak around? Stealth it. Healer needs help now? Get out from behind that wall and stab someone.
#6 salla Dec 27, 2009 13:46:29	Thanks. I'll give it a go, but I dont want to be labelled a rules-lawyer, piss anyone off, or risk making the game more serious than it should be. Still, it is making things hard. Any idea how I can sell the concept of a Character that drops out of sight behind a small wall, but can still somehow surpise everyone when he appears from behind the wall again :P Because they don't know precisely *when* you're going to pop up from behind the wall, and at the same time they're trying to keep track of that, there's about half a dozen other people running around trying to kill things.  Sooner or later, they won't be looking that way, and that's when you pop up and throw the dagger.
#7 Ranko Dec 27, 2009 14:17:13	Thanks. I'll give it a go, but I dont want to be labelled a rules-lawyer, piss anyone off, or risk making the game more serious than it should be. Still, it is making things hard. Any idea how I can sell the concept of a Character that drops out of sight behind a small wall, but can still somehow surpise everyone when he appears from behind the wall again :P Because they don't know precisely *when* you're going to pop up from behind the wall, and at the same time they're trying to keep track of that, there's about half a dozen other people running around trying to kill things.  Sooner or later, they won't be looking that way, and that's when you pop up and throw the dagger. What the squirrel with the hat said.
#8 Draco_Whitewind Dec 27, 2009 23:39:16	I'm pretty certain stealth still works like in 3.5 in regards to line of sight/concealment. Do you have some form of concealment from the point in which you intiated the attack? if not, then no, hiding behind a wall for 5 seconds to get stealth then walk out into lit areas will not give you that wonderful bonus. Given  the way perception works, they don't have to make checks for ordinary things even in the middle of battle. if you have concealment, they might get a bonus to their perception but beyond that, stealth is stealth. (also it does not matter "which way they were looking." D&D has no facing.)
#9 noneedforaname Dec 28, 2009 0:49:14	If your friends still don't think that the stealth rules are realistic after showing them the rules do something like this.  When your all taking a break to maybe get something to eat or stretch your legs make sure you're the first one out and ask the second one to grab something off the table while they're distracted duck behind the doorway.  Then when they walk out jump at them and yell "COMBAT ADVANTAGE!" while pommelling them with acorns (or something equally non-lethal).  I mean they know your out there so why should they be surprised?  Videotape the results so we can proplerly evaluate stealth rules.
#10 Krika Dec 28, 2009 10:29:44	This game isn't necessarily mean't to replicate what goes on in the real world. If you want to go with how the real world works, instead of how the game is built to work, thats all right. But we are in a world with Dragons, Magic, Elves, Gods, etc. Who said reality had anything to do with it? Especially in the Far Realm...
#11 absimiliard Dec 28, 2009 14:48:53	If the other DMs are that bothered by RAW conflicting with how they feel the real world works then change characters. It's totally not worth risking a game or friendship over. But it's also no fun to play a character who is supposed to be getting CA often (almost every round if you want to keep up with the other strikers in the DPR category) but can't because a house-rule is nerfing him. After all, if you wanted to do crappy damage you could just play a warlock. But don't just play something you're not enjoying because they think you should, that's not fair to you. -abs
#12 salla Dec 28, 2009 20:28:30	One important thing to note is that your options are limited as to what you can do with that combat advantage.  The way it works is that, when you break your hidden status, you retain it for the length of the action that broke it.  So, for example, if you duck behind a wall and successfully hide, then step back out with a regular move action, you will lose the hidden status (and thus combat advantage) before you can attack. You'll need to make use of attacks that let you move and attack as part of the same power, such as Deft Strike.
#13 Neutronium_Dragon Dec 29, 2009 20:09:07	It's not that difficult. You hide, move to the corner so that you still have cover (and remain hidden) but can attack, then do so.
#14 Draco_Whitewind Dec 30, 2009 3:22:40	N_Dragon, they get perception checks, (and generally a bonus on it) also he must have cover all the way up to the point where he attacks from. if he ever loses it for even a second, bonus is gone (or if he thinks he's successfully hidden but has not, remember total cover & concealment is required at that point)
#15 Touchfuzzy Dec 30, 2009 11:29:31	N_Dragon, they get perception checks, (and generally a bonus on it) also he must have cover all the way up to the point where he attacks from. if he ever loses it for even a second, bonus is gone (or if he thinks he's successfully hidden but has not, remember total cover & concealment is required at that point) It is gone AT THE END OF THE ACTION THAT CAUSED HIM TO LOSE COVER. So if he makes a move action then attacks, he loses it, but if he uses Deft Strike (as he already said he was) he doesn't lose it until the standard action as it includes a shift in the movement.
#16 Neutronium_Dragon Dec 30, 2009 13:43:22	If you're moving behind a wall to hide and then to the corner to make an attack then having cover up to that point isn't going to be a problem. You probably won't need more than one or two squares of movement to get to the corner so there won't be any movement penalty, and you'll be making a Stealth check vs their Perception regardless since you're trying to hide in the first place. So no, it's not that difficult - unless a group houserules that you can't do it at all, which is the OP's problem.
#17 rqshades Jan 01, 2010 1:07:33	Rogues are good at capitalizing on an enemy's attention being diverted by other opponents on the battlefield.  It's kind of the entire premise of the class. Now, bearing that in mind, make them watch this "Awareness Test" video. Edit: I tried using the insert media option, but it didn't work, so there's the link.  Just make sure not to read all of the video info or any of the comments, or it will defeat the purpose of the exercise. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4 No one can argue with that!
#18 Ramius613 Jan 02, 2010 2:49:22	If your friends still don't think that the stealth rules are realistic after showing them the rules do something like this.  When your all taking a break to maybe get something to eat or stretch your legs make sure you're the first one out and ask the second one to grab something off the table while they're distracted duck behind the doorway.  Then when they walk out jump at them and yell "COMBAT ADVANTAGE!" while pommelling them with acorns (or something equally non-lethal).  I mean they know your out there so why should they be surprised?  Videotape the results so we can proplerly evaluate stealth rules. I like this!! Ramius
#19 chanter_hound Jan 02, 2010 9:42:21	Rogues are good at capitalizing on an enemy's attention being diverted by other opponents on the battlefield.  It's kind of the entire premise of the class. Now, bearing that in mind, make them watch this "Awareness Test" video. Edit: I tried using the insert media option, but it didn't work, so there's the link.  Just make sure not to read all of the video info or any of the comments, or it will defeat the purpose of the exercise. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4 No one can argue with that! Show Heh.. I counted 12.. but i was sure i missed one. And yes, I did see the moonwalking bear.
#20 DragonsWrath Jan 02, 2010 15:04:53	www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4 No one can argue with that! Holy jubawah?! Show I coounted right, but missed the bear.  I think they cheated a little because the bear was wearing black, which they basically told you to ignore.  Still, a nice trick.
#21 bone_naga Jan 07, 2010 20:46:54	Have any of your friends played paintball, airsoft, or been in the Army? The stealth rules work just fine. Someone who knows what they're doing (like a rogue) can go behind a wall while you watch them and still surprise the hell out of you.
#22 mehukatti Jan 08, 2010 8:32:50	What bone_naga said is so true. The rules don't conflict with real world in this case.
#23 Cybit Jan 08, 2010 15:58:17	Make sure you're gaining total concealment / superior cover.  Popping around one square in a corner probably won't get you total concealment.  You'll probably need to go two squares past the corner, then deft strike up to the corner.  Otherwise, get distant advantage / flanking, and have at it. :-p  Not worth the fight with legitimate friends.
#24 imbecile Jan 14, 2010 13:03:43	Thanks all. I think this has been resolved. When we next played we all simply used my interpretation of the rules without any real discussion. The only time there was an issue was over a Wardens marking ability. The DM insisted that he couldnt mark if he was grabbed, regardless of what the rules said, as it was largely a one-off we shrugged it off and continued.
#25 DwarfFighter Jan 15, 2010 8:57:32	There's no point in playing one that has been arbitrarily handicapped like that. Wow. Handicapped by realism. -DF
#26 fugacityfixyoursite Jan 15, 2010 12:08:44	Welcome to the Republican Party.
#27 bone_naga Jan 15, 2010 18:22:42	Wow. Handicapped by realism. -DF How does this represent realism?
#28 jessewaldorf Jan 16, 2010 13:27:44	Simple fix. My DM tried the same thing on our rouge.  Fortunately he is min max master.  There is some combination of feats that lets you bluff as a minor action as opposed to your standard action.  Then you dont even need to hide but you'll get some ind of bonus to your bluf check if you do. Not sure what level you'll need to be but check the feats on the character creater they are there.
#29 ThroneMonkey440 Jan 21, 2010 11:33:40	As a DM with a brutal scoundrel rouge who is VERY dependent on this sort of thing to work well at all in my party, I find that the best thing to do in this situation (for the DM that is) is just play it by ear. If it seems the reasonable that the monsters would be distracted enough to be surprised by the rouge, then give him CA. I also try to make sure that I give it to him enough that he sees the payoff of building his character that way, but without making him uber-powerful. For example, we started KotSF a few weeks ago and I had the goblin who is in the back room be asleep amongst the wine barrels so the rouge got to stealth in there and use coup de grace, which was exciting. This does seem like one of the thornier issues in 4e though.