How optimized does a character need to be? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How optimized does a character need to be?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
everblight
Mar 14, 2009 13:24:35 This is primarily for LFR games, but I guess it would apply to any game.

After taking a brief foray into the optimization and role boards, I guess I have become a bit worried that my ability to make a good character is not good enough. I have yet been able to get to a LFR game, but I am trying for some games this summer. Thus, I don't have a good handle on what constitutes a good character or not.

Thus, my question. Does a character need to be super optimized, or are primary stats of 16 enough to make a decent performing character? Does weapon choice really make that much of a difference?

I ask this because one of the character concepts I am considering for the LFR is a fighter concept I dub "The Headsman". It was inspired by the recent "The Art of the Kill" article, and basically, the concept is an executioner who has turned to adventuring.

Anyways, I have been thinking of giving him the following stat spread
Human, Fighter (Two Handed Weapon Talent)
STR 16 (18)
CON 16
DEX 10
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 10

Feats: Executioner's Axe, Bravo multiclass

I ask the title question because I have been considering making him a Mercy Killer at 11th level, and at that point his WIS bonus would only be 2, and I was wondering if that would be worth it.

Thank you for you advice.
#2
Darth_Caffeineus
Mar 14, 2009 14:38:06 I can't speak for LFR, but in 4E any charecter will be viable as long as they have a 16 in thier main stat.

A friend of mine who only grudgingly plays 4E made a fighter with a 14 str becuase he did not want to play his charecter they way "the game forces you to!!111!!!". However with his fighter's weapon talent and using a +3 prof weapon his charecter generaly did okay. He acuracy was so-so but becuase he pumped up his ac and con he fufiled his primary function of being a defender. I made it a point of always having at a NPC leader in the party to buff him and giving him first crack at magic weapons and his charecter worked fine. I don't recomend that anyone put a 14 in the prime stat, but even if you do your charecter will still be viable if you use good tatics.
#3
smeelbo
Mar 14, 2009 14:48:32 In my experience, 16 is good enough. My favorite starting array is 16, 16, 12, 12, 10, 8, and it's worked so far. That yields either 16 or 18 on the primary stat, depending on race and build.

I think in practice, it depends on the DM and their choice of encounters. Starting with a 16 attack stat may become an issue in late paragon and epic, but then again, I may never play those levels.

I am uninterested in RPGA or LFR, so my only real concern would be convention games. If they are geared towards optimizers, then 16ers may suffer.

Or they may not. I cannot say yet.

I will say that if 4E really can't tolerate 16s, it has failed.

Smeelbo
#4
Seeker95
Mar 14, 2009 15:00:05 Starting with a 14 in your primary stat is also sufficient, although the trade-off value depends greatly on what you believe you are gaining in the process. A 16 in primary stat is easy. A 14 requires effort.

4e is simultaneously more stat-dependent and less than previous editions. In 4e, your stats are used very directly in your powers. The balanced nature of the edition makes each +1 bonus important, so the difference between a 14 and a 16, or a 16 and an 18, is real.

At the same time, the balanced nature of 4e makes the accumulation of multiple bonuses much less necessary or even possible, and the character that misses 5% more often than the next is not going to find himself lacking success.

With regard to your original post, both the need for and benefit from optimization in 4e is significantly less than in previous editions.
#5
Reg06
Mar 14, 2009 15:02:41 In LFR, you really don't have to be optimized. Stay away from Specials though, which are a grind and require a strong party.
#6
spellwyrm
Mar 14, 2009 15:58:29 Holy flaming monkeys Batman!

I think I just found some new friends. Finally people who don't lord over the beloved 18-20 stats, though I tend to disagree with the "balanced nature of the stats", it is otherwise nice to see some folks not all up and berserk about them godly +4/+5's at level one.

In Heroic, starting with lower number's isn't much of a problem, but the higher you go in tier, the more noticeable those beginning stats will be. Of course, you could always poke your GM in the eye and point out that those monsters and their ludicrously high stats could be taken a few notches down without weakening the experience. Thus giving the party an equal chance of success in the long run.
#7
Dark_Stryke
Mar 14, 2009 16:08:57 16 works fine for a primary stat. Getting an 18 before racials usually isn't that spectacular, and often cripples a lot of your character's utility. You will hit noticably more often, though.
#8
Stafir_Ortnev
Mar 14, 2009 16:26:08 In what I've played of LFR...

People who have started off with a 16 (after racial modifiers) as their main too hit stat..have complained greatly about how often their char would hit the enemy. Even using a +3 weapon...the +1 you get at level 2 made them feel better at least, plus they started to change tactics to go other ways to hit. He also made a very ineffective fighter as the enemy was willing to break the mark, etc, and go over to a more threatening target..as the char would normally not hit the enemy. He REALLY appreciated it when a warlord used furious smash in his favor...the + to hit helped a ton.

I think it'll somewhat just depend on how you plan to play in the end. I've seen warlords with pumped out char/int, and no str (incedentally the same person who played the fighter). This warlord is a monster in battle, as he uses all the attacks that makes others hit. It's funny when he uses his daily 'I hope I don't hit...' as if he misses his allies get to attack....I'm talking to him about getting a large executioners axe..to make it when he does hit..worthwhile..he he he.
#9
everblight
Mar 14, 2009 18:23:06 One worry I have is that my wisdom will be too low to make me an effective blocker. Does anyone have any ideas on what an adequate level of wisdom is?
#10
Reg06
Mar 14, 2009 18:44:15 I've been getting away with 12 Wis for my human fighter, but I also have 18 Str, a +3 prof weapon, and the +1 to hit class feature, so I can make up for it.
#11
everblight
Mar 14, 2009 19:05:33 Alright, for the character concept I am going with a executioner's axe, since it suits the concept. That five percent shouldn't make a huge difference over the long haul, right?

I know it is considered subpar to the Mordenkrad, but a hammer just doesn't suit the concept, really.
#12
gregt_314
Mar 16, 2009 0:10:50 The trick to 4e, from my perspective, is to treat your stats as complete abstractions that have nothing to do with how strong or intelligent you are for the roleplaying portions of the game. D&D was always pretty terrible at this anyway, with the fluffy nature of Charisma and the overlap between Intelligence and Wisdoem.

Min/max your traits to your heart's content, bearing in mind that in 4th Edition (a) a bonus to hit is worlds better than a bonus to damage for any class, and (b) on any class that will be on the front lines, a +1 to AC is better than a +1 to hit.

I play with a group that covers three of the available class roles, with one player who heavily optimises, two players who aim for strong characters without really tweaking, and two players who play deliberately sub-optimal builds, and with a bit of teamwork they seem to blow through most appropriately balanced encounters without too much trouble.
#13
volcanon2
Mar 16, 2009 11:48:46 You don't need to be optimized at all. In fact, the MM monsters were designed for players to not be totally optimized so I prefer it if PCs aren't optimized so I don't need to buff monsters to make the game still challenging.
#14
kouk
Mar 16, 2009 13:41:23 A 16 final stat should be fine for LFR. Generally speaking, the adventures are pretty doable by random parties of random characters.

An 18 final (16 +racial) is generally considered about the best most PCs start with. Going with a full 20 just makes your character weak in many other areas, and LFR adventures, while they have lots of combat, also have a lot of skill challenges.

As for the Mercy Killer paragon path, I'm not really seeing anything that requires a high Wisdom. The difference between a +2 situational bonus damage and a +3 or +4 is almost insignificant in the scheme of things. It's still a bonus, and if you have good strength to begin with you can be doing that damage constantly your whole career.

I notice though the array you have
16
16
10
8
13
10

has only spent 21 of the 22 points. I would suggest putting the last point into Dex, so you get a Reflex boost at paragon, or in Int so you get rid of the Intelligence penalty on skills at paragon (and/or for roleplaying, because 8 is low Int).
#15
mellored
Mar 16, 2009 14:20:50
Anyways, I have been thinking of giving him the following stat spread
Human, Fighter (Two Handed Weapon Talent)
STR 16 (18)
CON 16
DEX 10
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 10

Feats: Executioner's Axe, Bravo multiclass

It's a solid build. No one will have issue with hard hitting tough fighter.

Remember, the char-op forum will quibble over a .5 (or about 2%) theoretical damage bonus.
#16
Ramien
Mar 16, 2009 16:22:01 I'm playing in LFR games with a rogue who's only got a 16 in his primary stat. He really doesn't have much problem hitting with a rapier, especially since I've got the choice to attack NADs instead of straight AC, and I do my best to get combat advantage whenever I can. Tactics usually count for more than a single +1 bonus to hit, after all.

One side effect of not having piled a ton of points into one stat is that I can raise secondary stats a little more, so my own NADs are a bit better off than they would be otherwise.
#17
everblight
Mar 16, 2009 20:36:12 Now, my next question is whether the Son of Mercy path suits both the stats and the concept of the character.

By level 11, the wis bonus should be 2, which should help with Lawbreaker's Doom.

Overall, though, does the son of Mercy path offer a good deal of options for a fighter?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 everblight Mar 14, 2009 13:24:35	This is primarily for LFR games, but I guess it would apply to any game. After taking a brief foray into the optimization and role boards, I guess I have become a bit worried that my ability to make a good character is not good enough. I have yet been able to get to a LFR game, but I am trying for some games this summer. Thus, I don't have a good handle on what constitutes a good character or not. Thus, my question. Does a character need to be super optimized, or are primary stats of 16 enough to make a decent performing character? Does weapon choice really make that much of a difference? I ask this because one of the character concepts I am considering for the LFR is a fighter concept I dub "The Headsman". It was inspired by the recent "The Art of the Kill" article, and basically, the concept is an executioner who has turned to adventuring. Anyways, I have been thinking of giving him the following stat spread Human, Fighter (Two Handed Weapon Talent) STR 16 (18) CON 16 DEX 10 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 10 Feats: Executioner's Axe, Bravo multiclass I ask the title question because I have been considering making him a Mercy Killer at 11th level, and at that point his WIS bonus would only be 2, and I was wondering if that would be worth it. Thank you for you advice.
#2 Darth_Caffeineus Mar 14, 2009 14:38:06	I can't speak for LFR, but in 4E any charecter will be viable as long as they have a 16 in thier main stat. A friend of mine who only grudgingly plays 4E made a fighter with a 14 str becuase he did not want to play his charecter they way "the game forces you to!!111!!!". However with his fighter's weapon talent and using a +3 prof weapon his charecter generaly did okay. He acuracy was so-so but becuase he pumped up his ac and con he fufiled his primary function of being a defender. I made it a point of always having at a NPC leader in the party to buff him and giving him first crack at magic weapons and his charecter worked fine. I don't recomend that anyone put a 14 in the prime stat, but even if you do your charecter will still be viable if you use good tatics.
#3 smeelbo Mar 14, 2009 14:48:32	In my experience, 16 is good enough. My favorite starting array is 16, 16, 12, 12, 10, 8, and it's worked so far. That yields either 16 or 18 on the primary stat, depending on race and build. I think in practice, it depends on the DM and their choice of encounters. Starting with a 16 attack stat may become an issue in late paragon and epic, but then again, I may never play those levels. I am uninterested in RPGA or LFR, so my only real concern would be convention games. If they are geared towards optimizers, then 16ers may suffer. Or they may not. I cannot say yet. I will say that if 4E really can't tolerate 16s, it has failed. Smeelbo
#4 Seeker95 Mar 14, 2009 15:00:05	Starting with a 14 in your primary stat is also sufficient, although the trade-off value depends greatly on what you believe you are gaining in the process. A 16 in primary stat is easy. A 14 requires effort. 4e is simultaneously more stat-dependent and less than previous editions. In 4e, your stats are used very directly in your powers. The balanced nature of the edition makes each +1 bonus important, so the difference between a 14 and a 16, or a 16 and an 18, is real. At the same time, the balanced nature of 4e makes the accumulation of multiple bonuses much less necessary or even possible, and the character that misses 5% more often than the next is not going to find himself lacking success. With regard to your original post, both the need for and benefit from optimization in 4e is significantly less than in previous editions.
#5 Reg06 Mar 14, 2009 15:02:41	In LFR, you really don't have to be optimized. Stay away from Specials though, which are a grind and require a strong party.
#6 spellwyrm Mar 14, 2009 15:58:29	Holy flaming monkeys Batman! I think I just found some new friends. Finally people who don't lord over the beloved 18-20 stats, though I tend to disagree with the "balanced nature of the stats", it is otherwise nice to see some folks not all up and berserk about them godly +4/+5's at level one. In Heroic, starting with lower number's isn't much of a problem, but the higher you go in tier, the more noticeable those beginning stats will be. Of course, you could always poke your GM in the eye and point out that those monsters and their ludicrously high stats could be taken a few notches down without weakening the experience. Thus giving the party an equal chance of success in the long run.
#7 Dark_Stryke Mar 14, 2009 16:08:57	16 works fine for a primary stat. Getting an 18 before racials usually isn't that spectacular, and often cripples a lot of your character's utility. You will hit noticably more often, though.
#8 Stafir_Ortnev Mar 14, 2009 16:26:08	In what I've played of LFR... People who have started off with a 16 (after racial modifiers) as their main too hit stat..have complained greatly about how often their char would hit the enemy. Even using a +3 weapon...the +1 you get at level 2 made them feel better at least, plus they started to change tactics to go other ways to hit. He also made a very ineffective fighter as the enemy was willing to break the mark, etc, and go over to a more threatening target..as the char would normally not hit the enemy. He REALLY appreciated it when a warlord used furious smash in his favor...the + to hit helped a ton. I think it'll somewhat just depend on how you plan to play in the end. I've seen warlords with pumped out char/int, and no str (incedentally the same person who played the fighter). This warlord is a monster in battle, as he uses all the attacks that makes others hit. It's funny when he uses his daily 'I hope I don't hit...' as if he misses his allies get to attack....I'm talking to him about getting a large executioners axe..to make it when he does hit..worthwhile..he he he.
#9 everblight Mar 14, 2009 18:23:06	One worry I have is that my wisdom will be too low to make me an effective blocker. Does anyone have any ideas on what an adequate level of wisdom is?
#10 Reg06 Mar 14, 2009 18:44:15	I've been getting away with 12 Wis for my human fighter, but I also have 18 Str, a +3 prof weapon, and the +1 to hit class feature, so I can make up for it.
#11 everblight Mar 14, 2009 19:05:33	Alright, for the character concept I am going with a executioner's axe, since it suits the concept. That five percent shouldn't make a huge difference over the long haul, right? I know it is considered subpar to the Mordenkrad, but a hammer just doesn't suit the concept, really.
#12 gregt_314 Mar 16, 2009 0:10:50	The trick to 4e, from my perspective, is to treat your stats as complete abstractions that have nothing to do with how strong or intelligent you are for the roleplaying portions of the game. D&D was always pretty terrible at this anyway, with the fluffy nature of Charisma and the overlap between Intelligence and Wisdoem. Min/max your traits to your heart's content, bearing in mind that in 4th Edition (a) a bonus to hit is worlds better than a bonus to damage for any class, and (b) on any class that will be on the front lines, a +1 to AC is better than a +1 to hit. I play with a group that covers three of the available class roles, with one player who heavily optimises, two players who aim for strong characters without really tweaking, and two players who play deliberately sub-optimal builds, and with a bit of teamwork they seem to blow through most appropriately balanced encounters without too much trouble.
#13 volcanon2 Mar 16, 2009 11:48:46	You don't need to be optimized at all. In fact, the MM monsters were designed for players to not be totally optimized so I prefer it if PCs aren't optimized so I don't need to buff monsters to make the game still challenging.
#14 kouk Mar 16, 2009 13:41:23	A 16 final stat should be fine for LFR. Generally speaking, the adventures are pretty doable by random parties of random characters. An 18 final (16 +racial) is generally considered about the best most PCs start with. Going with a full 20 just makes your character weak in many other areas, and LFR adventures, while they have lots of combat, also have a lot of skill challenges. As for the Mercy Killer paragon path, I'm not really seeing anything that requires a high Wisdom. The difference between a +2 situational bonus damage and a +3 or +4 is almost insignificant in the scheme of things. It's still a bonus, and if you have good strength to begin with you can be doing that damage constantly your whole career. I notice though the array you have 16 16 10 8 13 10 has only spent 21 of the 22 points. I would suggest putting the last point into Dex, so you get a Reflex boost at paragon, or in Int so you get rid of the Intelligence penalty on skills at paragon (and/or for roleplaying, because 8 is low Int).
#15 mellored Mar 16, 2009 14:20:50	Anyways, I have been thinking of giving him the following stat spread Human, Fighter (Two Handed Weapon Talent) STR 16 (18) CON 16 DEX 10 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 10 Feats: Executioner's Axe, Bravo multiclass It's a solid build. No one will have issue with hard hitting tough fighter. Remember, the char-op forum will quibble over a .5 (or about 2%) theoretical damage bonus.
#16 Ramien Mar 16, 2009 16:22:01	I'm playing in LFR games with a rogue who's only got a 16 in his primary stat. He really doesn't have much problem hitting with a rapier, especially since I've got the choice to attack NADs instead of straight AC, and I do my best to get combat advantage whenever I can. Tactics usually count for more than a single +1 bonus to hit, after all. One side effect of not having piled a ton of points into one stat is that I can raise secondary stats a little more, so my own NADs are a bit better off than they would be otherwise.
#17 everblight Mar 16, 2009 20:36:12	Now, my next question is whether the Son of Mercy path suits both the stats and the concept of the character. By level 11, the wis bonus should be 2, which should help with Lawbreaker's Doom. Overall, though, does the son of Mercy path offer a good deal of options for a fighter?