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How rough is this?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
pluisjen
Jun 07, 2009 16:39:01 So we finally got to play again tonight, and the DM put us against a pretty big encounter. We got roughed up pretty badly, so I was wondering if our tactics are off, or if the encounter was rather heavy against us...

This was what we fought:

12 Goblin Cutter
2 Goblin Skullcleaver
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Hexer

vs:

1 Elf Cleric
1 Tiefling Warlock
1 Eladrin Wizard
1 NPC Dwarf Barbarian
(All level 2)

And in the last rounds we got some backup from the 3 Elves we saved from the Goblins, after they got their act back together.

We were fully rested, and fighting in thick woods near a clearing with a burning house (where the Elves were holed up)

So should this be a normal encounter; a hard one, or a seriously difficuly one? We've burned up 2 encounter powers, had 1 KO, lost a dozen or so Surges combined... it felt like a pounding but I haven't played many 4e sessions yet so this might be a normal thing.

If it is; these encounters feel wáy more exciting then their 3e counterparts because I constantly get the feeling we're getting chewed up and barely pulling through.

Anyway; just curious...
#2
ckaga2000
Jun 07, 2009 18:31:13 I'm only fair at assessing combats in 4e, but the Encounter Builder calls that a "Hard Encounter" Purely on XP budget.

Of course you've got a group of 2 strikers, a leader and a controller so you are probably take a fair share of damage. But in this encounter I don't know how well a defender would work since the main enemy is a controller.

Also is the Cleric a ranged cleric or melee cleric? If it's ranged then you really only have 1 melee attacker and getting combat advantage is difficult so that makes combats harder as well.
#3
AaronOfBarbaria
Jun 07, 2009 19:46:27 Yeah... that fight is one that is harder than it looks (with how hard it looks being Hard to start with)

With so many attacks coming at your party - which have classes with the mid to low range of defenses a lot of the times - and those Skullcleavers doing more damage in the later parts of the fight, it's near unavoidable to feel "chewed up" by that fight.

Depending on factors like initiative, enemy grouping, terrain, and character builds - the fight could also end up being pretty basic.

if the wizard can get multiple of the Cutters into area attacks.
if the barbarian and warlock are heavy enough on the damage to take out each Skullcleaver fast enough that it only swings it's bloodied damage once.
and if the cleric can stay behind his allies for cover while still attacking

The fight wouldn't seem too hard - but there are a lot of ifs involved.
#4
kouk
Jun 07, 2009 21:36:38 I agree that under most situations that would be a hard dang fight. Highly subjective to your party's exact makeup though.

If the wizard had Flaming Sphere and could be relatively protected, he could wipe out the minions pretty fast and the damage would just rack up on the bigger goblins.

I think the biggest factor would be the wizard's power selection, but also the cleric's. To a lesser extent the warlock because they have a little controller stuff too, but the barbarian probably should go after whatever's the most hurt already and pound away.

If you couldn't kill the minions really fast, it would be excruciating I expect. How did the fight go?

If you're new it's quite likely your PCs were built oddly or the monsters were run poorly of course.
#5
misterarcane
Jun 07, 2009 22:04:02 You only used 2 encounter powers and no dailies? Odd... as a general rule, don't horde your encounter powers unless you're looking at something easy real easy and suspect there's more waves comming this encounter, if you got a good shot with an encounter power, use it. On that fight, which qualifies as a 'hard' fight, I would have been looking for a good spot to drop a daily... at the end of a fight like that, probably at least 1 party member should have used a daily (Yeah, I know at low levels you don't get many, but still, if I hade an Area 3 daily or somesuch, I totally would have used it on a large group there)
#6
kouk
Jun 07, 2009 22:06:08 That's a good point, encounter powers really shouldn't be hanging out at the end of an encounter even when you're low level.

With more experience you'll work your power use better, but dropping a daily or two and all your encounters would not have been unexpected in a large fight like that.
#7
herald108
Jun 08, 2009 2:28:47 That's a lot of minions for one encounter. So that will defintiely keep the wizard busy. And the skullcleavers will keep attacks away from the sharpshooters and the hexer.

If there's cover, those sharpshooters can be quite annoying. They'll just snipe the party with impudence. And I really think the hexer is more artillery than controller.

Did you mean 2 encounter powers, or 2 dailys? You should really use your encounter powers every encounter -- if it's possible. There's no use saving encounter powers.

12 surges and 1 KO is about right for an encounter that is that difficult.

That's standard fare in my campaign. But then I run more difficult encounters -- at these low levels, I'm still testing the party's limits. But the party really pulls together. And when it's over there's a definite sense of relief.

Just think, that's 250 XP each.
#8
Novacat
Jun 08, 2009 3:11:01 It's party level +4, which is a very difficult fight. It's roughly equivalent to an end-boss battle in difficulty. This is, of course, just taking the XP budget into account, which may be misleading.
#9
rovin
Jun 08, 2009 10:20:59
It's party level +4, which is a very difficult fight. It's roughly equivalent to an end-boss battle in difficulty. This is, of course, just taking the XP budget into account, which may be misleading.

Yes, but note:

And in the last rounds we got some backup from the 3 Elves we saved from the Goblins, after they got their act back together.

Either the DM planned that (which clearly reduces the real difficulty) or he realized they were in trouble and compensated. Three more allies is a big swing, even for a few rounds.
#10
pluisjen
Jun 08, 2009 13:07:08 Hm, I wrote that wrong... it was late :P I meant Daily powers, and now that I've had some sleep I remember that we´ve actually used three; Sleep, Flaming Sphere (item power) and Flames of Plegh...

The Cleric (me) is mainly a ranged build, but since our Barbarian was getting swamped I tried to back him up a bit; which made me go down in a single round with some 40 damage. Those Cleavers hit hard, but I didn't know that.

Our own initiative was crappy at best; the Barbarian had a high one but the rest of us was at the bottom of the list ( my 9 put me above the two other pc's )

As for the Elves; well they started running away at first, then turned to help us, so I guess the DM realised we were taking it hard.

And yeah; we got that sense of relief when it was over (and a lot of 'told you so' from the Tiefling, who suggested we just ignored the Goblins and left the Elves to their fate; she's nice like that)

I think our DM enjoys heavy battles too; we have a constant feeling of getting our asses handed to us on every street-corner; but that might fit since we're just low-level heroes. Fortunatly he allows me to help out the others with tactical choices; it's not really their thing so we're making it out alive so far.

So from the look of it, the encounter was hard but not unbeatable.. that's pretty cool then; if all battles are like this it's going to be pretty amazing; it feels a lot deadlier then 3.5 did; although apparently it's not as overpowered as I though.

Thanks for the advice and all!
#11
koradzi
Jun 08, 2009 14:15:36 I'd have to say that the difficulty of the encounter depends a lot on how the DM is running it. The difficulty goes way up if the Hexer is making a point of redirecting incoming damage to the minions, if the baddies are making the most of Combat Advantage versus blinded party members, etc.

To put it succinctly: in the hands of an adversarial DM, this is almost a guaranteed TPK. It gets a lot easier if the DM isn't using killer tactics with the mobs; personally, I'd say that it's bad policy to design encounters way above party level and then dumb them down until they're winnable. My two cents.
#12
herald108
Jun 08, 2009 16:00:35
So from the look of it, the encounter was hard but not unbeatable.. that's pretty cool then; if all battles are like this it's going to be pretty amazing; it feels a lot deadlier then 3.5 did; although apparently it's not as overpowered as I though.

Funny, that people think it's impossible to die in 4e, especially with the new healing surges. But actually, the healing surges are a limited resource and thus limit your healing.

So, now when a PC runs out of surges, they run like ****!
#13
CCS
Jun 10, 2009 22:50:43 Book says it's very difficult.

But it's about the average at our table. We'd also give the DM a hard time for including minions vrs "real" monsters....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pluisjen Jun 07, 2009 16:39:01	So we finally got to play again tonight, and the DM put us against a pretty big encounter. We got roughed up pretty badly, so I was wondering if our tactics are off, or if the encounter was rather heavy against us... This was what we fought: 12 Goblin Cutter 2 Goblin Skullcleaver 2 Goblin Sharpshooter 1 Goblin Hexer vs: 1 Elf Cleric 1 Tiefling Warlock 1 Eladrin Wizard 1 NPC Dwarf Barbarian (All level 2) And in the last rounds we got some backup from the 3 Elves we saved from the Goblins, after they got their act back together. We were fully rested, and fighting in thick woods near a clearing with a burning house (where the Elves were holed up) So should this be a normal encounter; a hard one, or a seriously difficuly one? We've burned up 2 encounter powers, had 1 KO, lost a dozen or so Surges combined... it felt like a pounding but I haven't played many 4e sessions yet so this might be a normal thing. If it is; these encounters feel wáy more exciting then their 3e counterparts because I constantly get the feeling we're getting chewed up and barely pulling through. Anyway; just curious...
#2 ckaga2000 Jun 07, 2009 18:31:13	I'm only fair at assessing combats in 4e, but the Encounter Builder calls that a "Hard Encounter" Purely on XP budget. Of course you've got a group of 2 strikers, a leader and a controller so you are probably take a fair share of damage. But in this encounter I don't know how well a defender would work since the main enemy is a controller. Also is the Cleric a ranged cleric or melee cleric? If it's ranged then you really only have 1 melee attacker and getting combat advantage is difficult so that makes combats harder as well.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 07, 2009 19:46:27	Yeah... that fight is one that is harder than it looks (with how hard it looks being Hard to start with) With so many attacks coming at your party - which have classes with the mid to low range of defenses a lot of the times - and those Skullcleavers doing more damage in the later parts of the fight, it's near unavoidable to feel "chewed up" by that fight. Depending on factors like initiative, enemy grouping, terrain, and character builds - the fight could also end up being pretty basic. if the wizard can get multiple of the Cutters into area attacks. if the barbarian and warlock are heavy enough on the damage to take out each Skullcleaver fast enough that it only swings it's bloodied damage once. and if the cleric can stay behind his allies for cover while still attacking The fight wouldn't seem too hard - but there are a lot of ifs involved.
#4 kouk Jun 07, 2009 21:36:38	I agree that under most situations that would be a hard dang fight. Highly subjective to your party's exact makeup though. If the wizard had Flaming Sphere and could be relatively protected, he could wipe out the minions pretty fast and the damage would just rack up on the bigger goblins. I think the biggest factor would be the wizard's power selection, but also the cleric's. To a lesser extent the warlock because they have a little controller stuff too, but the barbarian probably should go after whatever's the most hurt already and pound away. If you couldn't kill the minions really fast, it would be excruciating I expect. How did the fight go? If you're new it's quite likely your PCs were built oddly or the monsters were run poorly of course.
#5 misterarcane Jun 07, 2009 22:04:02	You only used 2 encounter powers and no dailies? Odd... as a general rule, don't horde your encounter powers unless you're looking at something easy real easy and suspect there's more waves comming this encounter, if you got a good shot with an encounter power, use it. On that fight, which qualifies as a 'hard' fight, I would have been looking for a good spot to drop a daily... at the end of a fight like that, probably at least 1 party member should have used a daily (Yeah, I know at low levels you don't get many, but still, if I hade an Area 3 daily or somesuch, I totally would have used it on a large group there)
#6 kouk Jun 07, 2009 22:06:08	That's a good point, encounter powers really shouldn't be hanging out at the end of an encounter even when you're low level. With more experience you'll work your power use better, but dropping a daily or two and all your encounters would not have been unexpected in a large fight like that.
#7 herald108 Jun 08, 2009 2:28:47	That's a lot of minions for one encounter. So that will defintiely keep the wizard busy. And the skullcleavers will keep attacks away from the sharpshooters and the hexer. If there's cover, those sharpshooters can be quite annoying. They'll just snipe the party with impudence. And I really think the hexer is more artillery than controller. Did you mean 2 encounter powers, or 2 dailys? You should really use your encounter powers every encounter -- if it's possible. There's no use saving encounter powers. 12 surges and 1 KO is about right for an encounter that is that difficult. That's standard fare in my campaign. But then I run more difficult encounters -- at these low levels, I'm still testing the party's limits. But the party really pulls together. And when it's over there's a definite sense of relief. Just think, that's 250 XP each.
#8 Novacat Jun 08, 2009 3:11:01	It's party level +4, which is a very difficult fight. It's roughly equivalent to an end-boss battle in difficulty. This is, of course, just taking the XP budget into account, which may be misleading.
#9 rovin Jun 08, 2009 10:20:59	It's party level +4, which is a very difficult fight. It's roughly equivalent to an end-boss battle in difficulty. This is, of course, just taking the XP budget into account, which may be misleading. Yes, but note: And in the last rounds we got some backup from the 3 Elves we saved from the Goblins, after they got their act back together. Either the DM planned that (which clearly reduces the real difficulty) or he realized they were in trouble and compensated. Three more allies is a big swing, even for a few rounds.
#10 pluisjen Jun 08, 2009 13:07:08	Hm, I wrote that wrong... it was late :P I meant Daily powers, and now that I've had some sleep I remember that we´ve actually used three; Sleep, Flaming Sphere (item power) and Flames of Plegh... The Cleric (me) is mainly a ranged build, but since our Barbarian was getting swamped I tried to back him up a bit; which made me go down in a single round with some 40 damage. Those Cleavers hit hard, but I didn't know that. Our own initiative was crappy at best; the Barbarian had a high one but the rest of us was at the bottom of the list ( my 9 put me above the two other pc's ) As for the Elves; well they started running away at first, then turned to help us, so I guess the DM realised we were taking it hard. And yeah; we got that sense of relief when it was over (and a lot of 'told you so' from the Tiefling, who suggested we just ignored the Goblins and left the Elves to their fate; she's nice like that) I think our DM enjoys heavy battles too; we have a constant feeling of getting our asses handed to us on every street-corner; but that might fit since we're just low-level heroes. Fortunatly he allows me to help out the others with tactical choices; it's not really their thing so we're making it out alive so far. So from the look of it, the encounter was hard but not unbeatable.. that's pretty cool then; if all battles are like this it's going to be pretty amazing; it feels a lot deadlier then 3.5 did; although apparently it's not as overpowered as I though. Thanks for the advice and all!
#11 koradzi Jun 08, 2009 14:15:36	I'd have to say that the difficulty of the encounter depends a lot on how the DM is running it. The difficulty goes way up if the Hexer is making a point of redirecting incoming damage to the minions, if the baddies are making the most of Combat Advantage versus blinded party members, etc. To put it succinctly: in the hands of an adversarial DM, this is almost a guaranteed TPK. It gets a lot easier if the DM isn't using killer tactics with the mobs; personally, I'd say that it's bad policy to design encounters way above party level and then dumb them down until they're winnable. My two cents.
#12 herald108 Jun 08, 2009 16:00:35	So from the look of it, the encounter was hard but not unbeatable.. that's pretty cool then; if all battles are like this it's going to be pretty amazing; it feels a lot deadlier then 3.5 did; although apparently it's not as overpowered as I though. Funny, that people think it's impossible to die in 4e, especially with the new healing surges. But actually, the healing surges are a limited resource and thus limit your healing. So, now when a PC runs out of surges, they run like ****!
#13 CCS Jun 10, 2009 22:50:43	Book says it's very difficult. But it's about the average at our table. We'd also give the DM a hard time for including minions vrs "real" monsters....