There's the vague discomfort of kicking NPCs when they are down instead of helping them of course, but I figure I could get over that. The bigger problem is that I can't figure out how to have fun with an evil character while still maintaining a cohesive group. I find pointless stealing or beating up on non-threatening NPCs boring and kind of distasteful - I struggle to see the entertainment value. Where's the challenge? Sure, maybe some of the fights might be hard, but everything else just seems too easy.
So, can anyone out there sell me on evil? Why do you find playing evil characters fun?
Kicking someone while they're down and rubbing your hands at your own evil and callousness is grade school evil compared to helping up that person and once you have earned their trust, take everything they own and leave them in a much bigger predicament then when you first met them - if not outright dead in a ditch to be forgotten by history while you carry one with their wordly possession.
Most of the 'evil' character I played over the years would fit perfectly in normal society and would even in many case be considered 'good citizens'. Doing the right thing because it gives you more power isn't being altruistic, it's being calculating.
See the thing is a believable evil character doesn't wake up, look at himself in the mirror and go 'I'm so evil! What evil am I going to do today!?' ... no... he's simply someone who is selfish and believes that he deserves more of everything than everybody else and he has no moral issue about doing what he needs to do to get what he wants. So just because he won't feel any regret about kicking someone when they are down... he won't do for it's own sake. He won't do it because it's funny... he'll do it if it further his goal/wealth/power... and in many case he won't do it at all because it's pointless.
Now if your friends are just playing first degree evil character who kick puppies, burn kittens and all around do evil acts while running around cackling and twisting their mustaches... well, yeah... I would imagine that'd get boring pretty quickly. But if that's what they are into they are using D&D as a power fantasy to let out some steam from the daily grind and there's truly nothing wrong with that... it's just not what you happen to be looking for.
Out of curiosity... how old is your group?
The other players are happy as petty criminals, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be more happy as rulers of an evil realm or as infamous criminal masterminds.
Out of curiosity... how old is your group?
The age range maybe from 18 to 25? I don't know some of the members that well so I can't say for sure. To be fair it's a pretty new group, so things may improve as everyone settles down. I'm not too concerned over all, worse comes to worse I'll just say its not for me and move on.
I'm just aware I just really like being the good guy. Probably the main villain archetype I identify with is the Knight Templar. Where I really want to help people, I really do, but the masses are just too stupid to realize what is right and sometimes sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. Which unfortunately clashes with most evil parties
Probably after that would be something like a Punch Clock Villain, where I'm not so much evil as unscrupulous in accomplishing the goals of my superiors. Which is sort of what I'm doing right now, except without an interesting superior or purpose which makes it kind of boring. Plus blatent villany is like the opposite of ruthless efficiency, so it still doesn't fit with the party.
But aren't those both sort of the Diet Coke of Evil anyway? Both of them still lend themselves to being nice and protective.
Simply twist your character's view a little... the only way to help those mindless sheep is if you are the sheperd. And in order to do that, you need to take control. And that means feeling will gets hurts and legs will get broken on the way there... but that's okay, because ultimately you're doing it for the greater good. The blood on your hands will be washed away by all the good you will do once you're where you need to be... or so you think.
So you're stuck with a bunch of ruffians and thugs... well use those people. Even better if the blood isn't on your hand.
You may want to talk to your DM in private to explain the angle you want to take - he may like it and help you out.
If everyone is just going with a "chaotic evil" character, and they mug people, steal from houses, and thumb their nose at the city guard, then that game probably won't last too long.
Evil campaigns more than good ones usually need a strong goal in mind. You're banding together for that goal, otherwise you honestly wouldn't care about each other that much except what you can benefit off of each other.
I would ask the DM about an overarching goal for the campaign, because you're concerned with it devolving into mindless violence and looting, which gets old really fast.
If nobody actually had a goal with the campaign or their characters, you can introduce one if it sounds interesting, working with the DM to make sure it is ultimately doable (he has to be on board or things don't happen). Try to ask the other players about their characters to get some insight into who you're "working with." Perhaps create a shared backstory with as many as possible so that you have reasons not to betray each other.
Evil guys have morals too; they just tend to be somewhat different. Mobsters have a kind of code, gangster culture does as well. Psychopaths and con men stop at red lights and don't shoplift.
In fantasy settings, you rarely see the bad guys turn on each other when they have a common threat or goal. (Well, they do eventually, but not all of them usually, and they tend to think their goal is met at that point before being proved wrong later.)
Think of the evil villains you've fought over the years. You likely don't remember the street thugs you fought in a random encounter, but you would recall that strongly hierarchal evil cult, the evil dragon that was manipulating world events and so on.
I think for an evil party to survive and make a real game, there can only be one "Thog smash!" character who loves pointless violence. And he has to be subordinate to the smarter villains with actual plans. If the whole party thinks and acts like street thugs, then that's what they'll always be.
Have that discussion with the group to see if you can't get some shared goals and reasons to stick together. It may be a good idea to institute a "no killing each other" policy, but if you have real goals and reasons to work together it shouldn't be necessary.
Even if your group of thugs is given a quest, you're liable to steal from each other and kill random people, and make a mess. Employers wouldn't want that, they'd want professionals.
The members of the Legion of Doom don't sneak into each other's rooms and steal twenties out of wallets.
Come up with some ultimate evil plan that your character has, then go along with what your companions are doing until you have the opportunity to break off and accomplish your own mission.
Evil campaigns more than good ones usually need a strong goal in mind. You're banding together for that goal, otherwise you honestly wouldn't care about each other that much except what you can benefit off of each other.
So, this brings a few questions to mind...
Do the party members trust each other? And if they do, just exactly why the hell would they?
Other than that, the party sounds like a turn tabled batman game. This is a reference to the old campy series in which Batman would be captured and placed in some disbolical trap only to escape but where growing up kids would scream at the TV: "The bad guys are so stupid! If I were the villain, this is what I would do..."
The problem is that the reason those situations occurred is because the hero needs something to fight rather than hordes of mindless grunt followers of a monolithic bad guy. Playing a campaign where players must decide whether or not to trust each other and come up with ways of inspiring followers to strive and do their bidding (A rising and ambitious right hand man who will eventually become a threat to the PC leader, Kitiara from DragonLance is an example, is a far more interesting roleplay than simply threatening hordes of minions into submissive service. Such minions inevitably have low morale and high desertion rates when roleplay is properly adjudicated...) can be a unique experience in itself. As a DM, you can watch the depths of paranoia grow in your players eyes. :-)
I think that an important element is overlooked by people playing "evil" games. That element is how much we truly rely upon an understood rule of conduct between ourselves which remains with PCs because of the players rather than the characters. Turning those "understood" rules upside down is where the interesting "evil" games come from. Plots and character quirks are also important, IMO. If one can alsways assume another to act a certain way (its own best interest...) then it is easy to predict. For instance, most proclaimed chaotic characters who are only interested in their own well being do not actually appear chaotic to me. They often appear to be meticulously involved in their own self interests and survival where that meticulousnous does not appear to be very chaotic. Maybe that is just me.
Oh, well. I am done rambling.
It just has to be demanding more rewards from the quest giver than you deserve- for example, when you save the town, persuade them that since they saved the town they should get rewards, now persuade them that this isn't enough and they should give them more, and more until they are milked dry and you say "hey be thankful your alive, you may not have these cool things but that is the price of living, the price of my help, you keep your lives, be thankful for that"
if you want to be eviler, scam the town into doing the same thing so by the time you leave the town, the threat comes kills them all and they realize that they were pulled a fast one too late with their so-called "heroes" walking away with their stuff, meanwhile the invading force doesn't find any cool stuff- because you took all of it and they realize that the "heroes" took advantage of the situation and now can't get any good at all because they attacked in the first place, showing how useless the venture was
if you want to be the evilest person on the planet, you scam them both, take both their cool stuff as rewards, manipulate a third force into attacking them both and killing them all while running away with whatever cool stuff you got from the third force while they realize that most of ther forces were raiding places with nothing of value to be had while you were stealing a bunch of their cool magic items.
if you want to be the evilest person in the entire universe, you manipulate all the nations of the world into a world war until the world is a shell, you then take over the last superpower remaining through political manipulation then take over the world single-handedly then find someway to become immortal then rule. forever.
if you are still bored, go to another plane and do more evil stuff.
Evil campaigns more than good ones usually need a strong goal in mind. You're banding together for that goal, otherwise you honestly wouldn't care about each other that much except what you can benefit off of each other.
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I don't agree with this, just because you're evil doesn't automatically make you a loner...you're still very much capable of having friends and loyality and what have you. I can only think of comic book/novel examples right now that probably aren't mainstream enough for people to get, but I'm sure there's some more mainstream examples someone else could list.
To play an evil character you need not enjoy their actions, rather the reverse can be often true. You should maybe even be repulsed by your PC's actions.
What you should look for, what I look for when I play an evil character, is the motivations behind what he does, and the tradegy of his situation. Most evil creatures of people are in a tragic position, a bandit is always running from the law, a murder always hiding the evidence and worrying about being caught, an Orc is worried about looking weak, a Drow worried about being backstabbed or betrayed by someone seaking a better social position.
As a group of Evil PCs, you are surrounded by others who you really can't trust. They can and likely will betray you. You live in places where you can't trust those around you, either among other evil creatures (and you are really no safer then any other victim among other evil beings) or among good beings who will surely hunt you down if discovered.
Your character might feel bad about kicking an NPC when they are down, but on the other hand you can't afford to show any weakness or others will exploit that. You may feel remorse and even want to find redemption, but you are caught in a position where you have little choice but to continue down the path of evil, continually victimizing yourself and others.
You're not playing out your anti-social tendencies with this character. You aren't evil. Your the only good/sane person left on the globe. You are a villain.
Define your character better to yourself. First decide what type of evil character he is, what sorts of things he will or wont do, maybe he conceders beating someone to a bloody pulp for no reason to be beneath him. (Let your mindless evil doing friends take care of the dirty work and take plenty of notes so you can blackmail them later if you need to, or even set them up to take a fall for you if needed.)
The character Dexter in the tv show "Dexter" for example is a serial killer but he only kills people he thinks "Needs" to die. Just figure out what you want to WORK for your character. Define your characters obsession that drives him toward evil. Maybe he's a pyro and he isn't out for money or glory at all he just likes to watch stuff burn. Next time your friends beat someone down you can sit back and not get your fists bloody just set the slowly moving half-dead newly-looted bodies on fire and watch the flames dance.
Don't watch for too long though or the DM might sick the guards off to investigate the fire.
Drop some hooks for your DM by doing some unexpected things that might make this more interesting to you. Just before your friends head out for the day to do some evil, offer up a prayer to the goddess of nightmares to bless your party and maximize your fun. Head off by yourself during the night and perform a ritual of some sort. It doesn't matter if the ritual is real or not as long as your character thinks it is, and it does give your DM some things to play with that might be enjoyable for you on a higher scale than kid evil.
If you really decide you hate playing evil, have your character soul search and be good trying to thwart, minimize, or prevent the doings of evil doers. And your current status in your party provides you with a nice believable cover identity. Just don't let them know you've changed your ways.
I agree with the posters who have said that you need to define your character as more than "evil". What does he do that makes him evil? Why does he do what he does?
Even evil characters need a reason. Actually, they need a reason even more so than unaligned or good characters, who can simply claim to be going with the flow. Evil characters do things that would be considered unacceptable. Although being evil may often seem easier than being good, it also carries negative repercussions. Your character needs a reason to take the risk.
Put some thought into your character's goals. Wealth and power are common evil motivations, followed by fanatical religious beliefs and by mental instability. Think about how your character justifies what he must do to achieve his goals. Maybe he thinks the world would be a better place if he ruled it, or talks about all the good he will be able to do with fantastic wealth.
Now think about what he will not do. Some evil masterminds might be willing to do anything to accomplish their goals, but most are not. Not really. Your character is going to be more interesting if you give him a twist and refuse to cross a line somewhere. Someone who is willing to murder innocents, but whose warped sense of honor forbids him to steal...that is going to involve role-playing instead of hack-and-slash.
If you are playing a character who is willing to kill anyone who gets in his way, you will need to decide why the party works together. Maybe each member feels that he needs the others to accomplish his goals, or maybe despite their feelings towards the rest of the world they actually care about one another. Maybe some magical curse links them somehow.
One of my most memorable 3.5 characters was J'kiya. He was a nihilist who believed that actions had no meaning. A sadistic sociopath, he used his charisma and cunning to thwart everyone. As a bard/shadowdancer, he had the means to do this expertly. He sowed fear and mistrust between individuals and nations. He felt that the gods of good were fools and their followers were sheep. Yet one of his greatest opponents was a vile deity who ultimately captured and replaced all the other gods. One of J'kiya's greatest moments was standing on the top of a shattered mountain in the Seven Heavens and watching as the souls of the good were sucked Below to suffer the same fate as what awaited him. Having proved to himself that concepts such as Good and Evil were meaningless even in the face of gods, he became involved in efforts to topple the vile god who had accomplished it.
Throughout all 19 levels of his existence, J'kiya never killed a living being, preferring to leave them grievously injured, or even better- mentally scarred. He was loyal to a Master who had taught him much, and thus to the other characters in the game who were likewise loyal. His goals in life included proving every concept of morality to be meaningless and leaving the world a cold, indifferent place. Knowing that he faced punishment for his transgressions by petty gods, he constantly sought ways to accomplish eternal oblivion for his own soul, fearing nothing more than an eternal existence of any kind.
Evil characters are a lot of fun to play if you give them lots of depth.
My advice? Not worth it if you have another option. Otherwise go deep into your character's backstory and make him a conflicted, tortured soul...then at least the gang violence for violence's sake will make some kind of sense to you. Kinda like Batman, I guess.
Get a higher goal of evil, the ones you play with are happy as petty criminals beating up a few people to get the money they need rather than taking an ordinary job. They are simple minded, this is good for you, appeal to their senses of greed and selfishness when you describe your grander plan to conquer the realm/ steal a vast fortune/assasinate the king and take his place as an imposter/ do any other grand schemed evil goal you can think of. If all goes well they will agree that the things you offer are better than their current criminal lifes and become your first thugs, as your plan evolves they will become henchmen under you.
The other players are happy as petty criminals, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be more happy as rulers of an evil realm or as infamous criminal masterminds.
QFT
sounds like you've got some grade A goons there.
Just be the man with the plan, and let them do the dirty work
Pushing commoners down is really, well a pretty sad side of evil. Thats like planning for months to steal a organe from the vendorm and then you end up with a apple. Evil, in the loosest since of the word.
I will never play in a evil game or let my let players play evil. Seen to many games break down because of this
It's a recipe for stagnation and frustration.
Evil isn't a alignment. It's represents a willingness, a flexibility, and a perspective.
Do the party members trust each other? And if they do, just exactly why the hell would they?
This is actually a huge issue for me. I'm playing the defender role, which arguably is the one that requires the most trust. Not only does my character have to work with the others, she has to risk her life to keep the others safe. Yet she's working with people who's she's seen stab others in the back for almost no reason, openly talk of becoming liches and other delusions, and have threatened her once or twice; one even tried to abandon a fight when things turned sour. Several characters also hoard treasure, even breaking off in the middle of battle in order to try sneak stuff before anyone else gets a share. The looting actually bothers me most since it's not even acting in your best interest to not stragetically divide treasure - extra AC won't do much good to a ranged striker when the meatshield goes down.
Ranting aside, I want to point out that I do actually get along with several of the people in the group just fine in another game. And I'm also okay with the DM's private plan to deal with the situation - he told me he's just going to keep upping the difficulty until either the group starts working together to survive or until there's a TPK, at which point he'll get us all to create characters who have a reason to get along. There's only really one person who I don't like, but I think he's just inexperienced or something. It really isn't a bad group of people.
Anyways, getting back to the problem, what exactly is a defender to do? In a logical world I'd think even evil people would GTFO of that situation, or at least be resentful. I mean, do I just suck at my job and not defend? Any suggestions on how to deal with this, preferrably via roleplay instead of OOC?
I've recently joined a Dnd group that is running an evil campaign and I'm having trouble adjusting. It has little to do with the people, it's mostly composed of friends from a different group that's playing a good game, and I get along with them fine there. I actually feel a bit guilty for not quite enjoying the evil campaign, but so far it's not clicking with me.
There's the vague discomfort of kicking NPCs when they are down instead of helping them of course, but I figure I could get over that. The bigger problem is that I can't figure out how to have fun with an evil character while still maintaining a cohesive group. I find pointless stealing or beating up on non-threatening NPCs boring and kind of distasteful - I struggle to see the entertainment value. Where's the challenge? Sure, maybe some of the fights might be hard, but everything else just seems too easy.
So, can anyone out there sell me on evil? Why do you find playing evil characters fun?
Why do you find playing evil characters fun? I don't ever. Has nothing to do with being a goody goody obsessed gamer either. I just find that people that promote playing evil, are only acting out personalities of themselves in game and just can't come to grips with the fact that's true.
When I play a character, I am playing the character, it isn't me. I can play all the alignments, and I have found that playing evil is unpractical, unprofitable, and so counter productive to what the game was designed to do that its not surprising when it doesn't work.
But if you really want to insist on playing, well I suppose all I can say is just have fun stabbing them all in the back, not living up to anything you say, ever, lie cheat and in general have fun being evil. Remember, as an evil person it's all about you, none of them count. You don't have friends, thet're just assets.
Players will do whatever they can for a laugh or an advantage in a campaign if they're not being guided. I'm not saying rails, the guide may be themselves, not just the DM. They sound like they're running lose and resorting to childish behaviors. This is markedly different from an evil campaign. Where the goal and themes evil, but the group is still social and guided.
It's the difference between a group plotting to overthrow a kingdom by framing or assassinating the king and a group killing bar patrons. The former has an objective or a plotline. They have to work together to this goal and they still have to behave as a regular adventuring group, just with a less nice goal. The latter, they've got nothing to do at all, so they're just killing things.
Why do I want to make this clear? Because I've played good campaigns that resulted in the behaviors you talk about. The DM wasn't presenting us with clear goals and motivators and was just as easily distracted from the campaign as the players. Next thing you know, people are flinging feces around and threatening hookers. Without a clear indicator of what's going on and why the characters are involved, some players will simply resort to lulz. They're not hooked on the campaign. Maybe bored.
The reason I ask, is I have tried to run games before where it is clear the players simply either have no idea what evil is and what 'jerk' is for alignments, or the players simply fill out chaotic good with intent to just fill out the section of the PC record sheet with the presumed default presumed 'do what you want' alignment. I don't by the way consider chaotic good a 'do what you want' alignment.
I sometimes find, that player simply don't feel like being constrained by an alignment, and I suspect that might be part of why alignment in 4th edition really serves almost no purpose. For instance, if the Paladin is a swine, or the cleric uncaring, what exactly happens to their powers? Not much. The DM in 4th edition essentially has to hand make any repercussions.
In 4th edition, I have generally taken 'evil' as an alignment indicated on monsters, to mean the monster will be extremely unfriendly. It's not much good for anything else in 4th though.
Generally if the group starts a process of performing entirely unacceptable acts in game, I just start adjusting the attitudes of the game against their actions. I'm ok with players writing down their stated alignments at the point of PC creation, but, I tend to make actions speak for their PCs, not an often poorly adhered to scribble on the PC record.
Killing people indescriminately isn't defacto immediately 'evil' in game, but it's excellent to get the ball rolling for having the party end up way up **** creek. Kill off too many NPCs that were just common schmucks, kill off too many NPCs that hire on only to never be heard of again, and soon you become an 'adventure' hook for an NPC adventuring party that shows up and kills off the group.
Hey, NPCs need a reason to exist too
I don't call that moralizing either. When you're evil, you ARE on your own.
When you say 'unguided' are you meaning the DM has just not asserted enough control?
No.
I'm not saying rails, the guide may be themselves, not just the DM.
I'm saying it could be any number of reasons. The DM may not be presenting them with a clear path to the next objective. They may feel lost in a game world they're disinterested in. It may be just disinterest. They could lack excitement or character motivation to involve themselves.
People tend to become ****s in-game because:
A) They're bored.
B) They don't know what else to do.
C) They feel like they don't have any control over what's going on.
These three can overlap and B is kind of a catch-all because it can cover anything from clear objectives to personal motivation. It's the first two I refer to as "unguided." The third one would be resulting in rebellion.
Evil campaigns, like any other campaign, need a goal to be interesting. Ones that we have found that worked was service (either voluntary or forced) to some higher organization. In 3.5 this included my LE cleric of the dark six who wanted to reestablish his church. One of the other characters in the party was his brother who was a werewolf and who wanted to spread lycanthropy through the world, while another character needed the church to restore him to his proper race (he was an elf stuck in a kobolds body after a bad reincarnation). We had to set up shop secretly in Sharn and set up other groups to take the fall for our misdeeds. Having to do our deeds in secret in the middle of a city with the town watch on alert for our presence set up lots of challenges.
Another campaign we served a lawful church with a LE and LN party as sort of their elite inquisition squad, going after heritics and performing sabotage and other spy type stuff in foreign lands doing stuff the higher ups needed done, but did not want to do themselves.
In our current savage worlds campaign we are playing supervillains targetted by alien invaders for death. Our goal is to eventually drive out the aliens and hopefully take over the world in power vaccum that follows.
In any of the scenarios I mention above going into a tavern and randomly killing patrons is stupid and will likely attract unwanted attention. But going into a tavern that is actually a front for a competing group and killing the people inside while making it look like members of a third rival group actually did it = a fun and interesting campaign.