Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jaamus Mar 27, 2008 18:54:50	So we play in a large group(8 including the DM) all of us have been friends for 15+ years save one who has been friends with the DM alone for 15 + years but not us. He is very touchy, we try to accommodate this as best as possible and speak politely to him ooc. However IN CHARACTER sometimes things have to be said that can be far from polite as we try our best to stay true to the character we developed. The other night a character who had been affected with something that effectively reversed his LG attitude(note he is not LG his stances on the world and how to treat people would reflect that but there is no alignment in this game) and he told the touchy guys character IN CHARACTER that he is useless. 5 minutes pass and the guy packs up his stuff says he has to let his dog out and leaves. I found out yesterday that he quit the group. Should we try to make ammends? It has been explained to him that it was done in character and was not directed at him but he refuses to understand it. I really am in the middle on this and if he comes back cool, if he doesn't... cool. But I am afraid the DM(his friend) will be pissy now too. Opinions please.
#2 cobra_commander Mar 27, 2008 20:10:46	Well, if you guys tried to explain it to him, and he still didn't listen, I'd have to say maybe it's for the best. Mind you eight players is pretty big, if you're all playing at once, and takes a toll on the DM. Maybe one less player isn't a bad thing? I understand that there could be hurt feelings involved, but if the guy doesn't want to listen to reason, then I'd say just let him cool off and talk to him at a later date. In the mean time...Go have fun? COOOOBBBBRRRRAAAAAA!!!!!!
#3 jaamus Mar 27, 2008 20:19:37	I actually just found out he un-quit. What I think happened was, He told the DM he quits, DM asks why and he says I didn't like the other PC's comment stating I am "useless" DM says it was in character, chill out. Mr. Sensitive says well I didnt like it, he probably expected the DM would say well I'll uninvite the other guy, please stay. when this didn't happen he felt foolish and un-quit. Tommorrow night is going to be weird now cause everyone knows what happened, I hope this turns out well, it's really a kick-ass group and I'd hate for it to fall all apart.
#4 etarnon Mar 27, 2008 20:19:58	It's been explained to him. Let it pass. He's got other problems. Wish him well, and move on.
#5 1red13 Mar 27, 2008 20:47:18	I think you did the right things. Sometimes verbal rough housing can dent someones feelings but it usually evens out in the long run. The fact that you were concerned should count for something. You certainly don't want to coddle someone to the detrement of the rest of the party.
#6 jage Mar 27, 2008 21:53:24	Or to coddle them to the detriment of the fun. I mean if it's no fun to play maybe everyone should have a heart to heart OOC before the session... although it sounds a bit like you're dancing on glass with mr. sensitive so it might be really hard... but I can't imagine playing at length if the situation remains unchanged. Good luck! P.S. It's refreshing to see people on this board being supportive and trying to resolve this, give good advice, yadda-yadda. Usually it's "Flat out tell the guy he's a jerk and if he can't take it too bad for him." Sometimes I wonder about the social skills round here...
#7 salla Mar 27, 2008 22:06:27	If someone is incapable of separating in-character and out-of-character comments, and takes remarks made about their character that personally, I would certainly question whether or not I would want them at my game table.
#8 the_black_hand Mar 27, 2008 22:15:05	I say tell him to go **** off. If you think that was unwarrented be glad I went with this version. I was mean with what I first typed.. Brak- I only evade the censor because it censors words that should not be censorred. Can you give me a reason P*** is censorred. I mean it's not like I am dropping the f-bomb here or telling them this person should be shot (he should).
#9 shaggy_shaggs Mar 27, 2008 22:35:30	If someone is incapable of separating in-character and out-of-character comments, and takes remarks made about their character that personally, I would certainly question whether or not I would want them at my game table. Same, I gamed with someone like that for years. I liked her as a person but she was a horrible strain as a fellow gamer. Eventually I just had to quit trying, it cost too much in terms of sanity and fun to play RPGs with her. P.S. It's refreshing to see people on this board being supportive and trying to resolve this, give good advice, yadda-yadda. Usually it's "Flat out tell the guy he's a jerk and if he can't take it too bad for him." Sometimes I wonder about the social skills round here... To be fair, in a situation like this, telling the oversensitive player he's wrong and he needs to suck it up isn't a bad thing, even if it's not tactful. Oversensitivity is a problem at and away from the table, and people don't develop thicker skins by having everyone walk on eggshells around them. Sometimes you need to just do your thing and let the oversensitive one either figure out how to cope, or move on as a lost cause.
#10 mock26 Mar 27, 2008 22:53:22	How long have you been playing with this sensitive person? Additionally, how old is he?
#11 salla Mar 27, 2008 22:57:43	Same, I gamed with someone like that for years. I liked her as a person but she was a horrible strain as a fellow gamer. Eventually I just had to quit trying, it cost too much in terms of sanity and fun to play RPGs with her. Agreed. The problem with my over-sensitive guy was that all his characters were, basically, an idealized over-macho version of himself, which meant that anything bad that happened to the character, of course, was meant for him. So, when his idea of covertly casing a building was to climb up the side of the building in broad daylight with a rope and grapple, the resultant 'what the **** were you thinking' speech created quite a poutfest.
#12 jage Mar 28, 2008 0:33:02	To be fair, in a situation like this, telling the oversensitive player he's wrong and he needs to suck it up isn't a bad thing, even if it's not tactful. Well yes, but "not tactful" is totally different from being crass and boorish in an otherwise normal situation and then using the "if he can't take my flaming insults he shouldn't have tried to game with me" as an excuse. Being blunt vs. using others' feelings as an excuse to be a total jackass if you will. Also I don't think "You're wrong" is quite the approach I'd take... :D ...otherwise I agree with you.
#13 mock26 Mar 28, 2008 1:43:06	Just be yourself. Don't hold back on any of your in-game comments. Once you start acting as if you are walking on egg shells then your enjoyment of the game starts to be infringed. Don't go out of your way to be mean to his character, but don't pull back. I would also suggest that you not worry about holding back when talking to him. Again, don't go out of your way to be mean to him, but you should not have to go out of your way to censor yourself the way it seems that you do (and it seems like you guys are walking on egg shells around him). If he says something totally moronic, respond exactly the same way you would with anyone else in the group. It isn't fair to everyone else in the group that he should have such an overly negative impact on your enjoyment of the game. It sounds like you guys have spent long enough bending over backwards to be careful around this guy, and if he isn't improved any bit over 6 months or so then you guys have done all that you can.
#14 jaamus Mar 28, 2008 8:53:36	How long have you been playing with this sensitive person? Additionally, how old is he? Thats the thing, I am 27. He has been gaming since before I was alive. I'll be sure to post tomorrow morning how it went.
#15 hsien Mar 28, 2008 9:10:58	Thats the thing, I am 27. He has been gaming since before I was alive. I'll be sure to post tomorrow morning how it went. I've been playing longer then you've been alive also...dang I'm getting old. I'm in a large group as well, we've been playing together for almost 20 years in some fashion, and feelings can get ruffled from time to time. If your good friends something small like that will work out by just hanging out and getting to know the player better.
#16 zombie_babies Mar 28, 2008 9:27:47	The best way to remedy a situation like this is to allow Mr Sensitive to have his sensitive moments. The next time he does, quickly stab him in the thigh with whatever sharp thingy you have handy. The transition from mental to physical anguish should solve the sensitivity issue (well, except for the newly sensitive stabbed region of his thigh). He will forget about whatever was said and focus on the pain in his leg. Once it subsides, he should have completely lost his sensitivity to whatever was said. Problem solved. ;) On an actually helpful note, I think you've already done all that's needed. He took something too hard and you guys tried to fix it. There's no need to go any further. This isn't some five year old who's toy you've accidentally smashed, it's a man. Treat him like one. Regardless of how he needs to be treated. You'll be doing everyone a favor.
#17 green_yawgmoth Mar 28, 2008 11:37:55	Tell the guy he's out of the game because his lack of a spine makes the game unenjoyable, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. If this kid can't handle someone saying something IN CHARACTER then he needs to grow some skin. How does such a person deal with the outside world?
#18 williamtanner Mar 28, 2008 11:38:39	Um.. I suggest taking him to a strip club. Or a basketball game. Or something else out of the D&D game where you can get to know each other as people instead of characters. The problem with someone new coming into an established group is that the 'insides' have all these inside jokes, conversations about past adventures and characters, and tons of other history that exclude the new person. He's going to feel like an outsider because he is one. It takes time. You need to establish an rapport with the new player before you can treat him like one of the boys, which generally involves a lot of trash-talking. Until he's comfortable that you are giving him crap in the spirit of friendship, he'll take it in the spirit of hostility. One thing you haven't really considered is that his character may have acted in the same manner as the player, so you are boned either way.
#19 etarnon Mar 28, 2008 13:07:02	green_yawgmoth wrote: Tell the guy he's out of the game because his lack of a spine makes the game unenjoyable, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. If this kid can't handle someone saying something IN CHARACTER then he needs to grow some skin. How does such a person deal with the outside world? Maybe he can't. Many D&D players, (and the non-D&D playing population outside of it) have varying degrees of mental illness. Imagine being unable to deal with the real world, so escaping into a fantasy world. Then being unable to deal with that, because the people in it are hostile. Then what? Off by himself. He might need to "grow some skin," just as much as others need to "develop some sensitivity." Seems to me like the poor guy has outside non-game issues that are coloring his whole life. This is people at his game berating him for "not doing it right," so to avoid that, he leaves. What's it like for him at a job? I'll say right now, my first reaction is to feel compassion for that guy, and his situation.
#20 turalisj Mar 28, 2008 13:56:44	What is the average age of the group? I can imagine if everyone is in their teens, but if everyone is in their 20's or 30's well....
#21 jaamus Mar 29, 2008 14:37:47	He is the oldest in the group by far, next is 33, 32, and then all mid to late 20's. The guy is homosexual, none of us are and none of us care that he is, but we also do not look like typucal dnd'ers, we are all construction workers in the local union, big "tough" guys. Since he's started coming, i have observed an inferiority complex from him and completely un-warrented anymosity, almost like he expects us to pick on him, and when we don't he gives this holier-than-thou attitude. He is in his 40's and is a teacher so I can't imagine why social situations are so hard for him. So as it went last night, I talked to the DM, with his brother who is a PC before mr. sensitive got there. I asked him if it was going to be awkward, he said if it is he is going to ask him to leave, 8/9 people are having a blast and one isn't. He is not going to accomodate the one just because he's being whiney. So the guy shows up, we start playing, and he is being extremely untrue to his character, saying and doing things that make no sense what so ever. I questioned him on it one time, he made a rude remark which I shrugged off and the game went on. Half way through he falls back into his old self, aloof and quiet going off on his own making it hard to follow the story because the DM has to cater to the fact that he is not with the group. Anyways, come to the end of the night, he leaves and we all talk and decide that he is going to be uninvited, the DM suggested it and as he is his friend and not mine, I no longer care about the situation provided he follows through and actually does uninvite him.
#22 1red13 Mar 29, 2008 14:43:53	The OP mentioned he was 27 and the person in question had been gaming longer than he has been alive. Certainly old enough to handle a little ribbing or in character tension. Different people have different tolerances. It could be the group isn't for him either, contrasting playstyles or clashing personalities.
#23 jaamus Mar 29, 2008 14:47:12	I know i just said i don't care anymore, but i am responding to this: Different people have different tolerances. It could be the group isn't for him either, contrasting playstyles or clashing personalities. I am not above saying we are brash and over the top, but we are not ignorant towards him, if he joins in great, and he used to, but you have to be able to draw the line that if something is said in character when for that character it was obvious something had made him change because he would never in a million years respond like that, you have to take a step back and think about it before flying off the handle.
#24 1red13 Mar 29, 2008 18:25:09	My last post appears mistimed. I agree whole heartedly.
#25 green_yawgmoth Mar 30, 2008 10:55:41	Maybe he can't. Many D&D players, (and the non-D&D playing population outside of it) have varying degrees of mental illness. Imagine being unable to deal with the real world, so escaping into a fantasy world. Then being unable to deal with that, because the people in it are hostile. Then what? Off by himself. He might need to "grow some skin," just as much as others need to "develop some sensitivity." Seems to me like the poor guy has outside non-game issues that are coloring his whole life. This is people at his game berating him for "not doing it right," so to avoid that, he leaves. What's it like for him at a job? I'll say right now, my first reaction is to feel compassion for that guy, and his situation. You know if you use the default quote button it put my name in the box with my quote, right? okay. just checking. As someone who is getting a psych degree in a month, I know all about psychological disorders, and I can tell you right now that a lot of them can be "cured" (dealt fix, made better, however you want to call it) with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. CBT, for the uninitiated, is where you tell the person "hey, you're doing and it needs to stop. Be aware of this and try to not do ". You'd be surprised how often and fast it works. The only problem with it is that the person has to want to change. This guy doesn't sound like he's got any sort of crippling depression or some such, he just sounds like a guy who has been coddled by everyone around him for too long. He's not going to get any better with dealing with life everyone around him handles him with kid gloves because "oh, he doesn't like it when people act hostile." News flash: people aren't nice. If he really has a disorder of some kind (generalized anxiety would probably be the diagnosis here), then he needs to get some meds before he plays again. If he's just jimmy the thin-skinned kid then he needs to harden up and learn to differentiate between real life and roleplaying. if he can't differentiate, then he shouldn't be playing in the first place, lest he end up like Blackleaf. Having a psych disorder doesn't exempt you from having normal human relationships and interactions. This kid just sounds like your typical "I need everyone to cater to me because I'm a unique and special snowflake" type.
#26 shaggy_shaggs Mar 30, 2008 11:00:15	green yawgmoth is one of the best posters ever.
#27 jage Mar 30, 2008 11:26:00	You know if you use the default quote button it put my name in the box with my quote, right? okay. just checking. As someone who is getting a psych degree in a month, I know all about psychological disorders, and I can tell you right now that a lot of them can be "cured" (dealt fix, made better, however you want to call it) with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. CBT, for the uninitiated, is where you tell the person "hey, you're doing and it needs to stop. Be aware of this and try to not do ". You'd be surprised how often and fast it works. The only problem with it is that the person has to want to change. Wow. That's seriously scary that you're going to go out and be responsible for people's mental health.
#28 turalisj Mar 30, 2008 13:16:39	I can think of another thing that CBT could mean....>.>;
#29 mergedloki Mar 31, 2008 3:43:02	as everyone said you explained to him it was in game so whatever if he deals w/it fine, if he doesn't whatever. I've played, on and off w/the same group since i was 13 or so. and in that time we've had full out in-game battles w/pc's picking sides and facing off against each other. One started w/a ranger (this one guy who we dont play w/no more ALWAYS liked playing rangers but then he didn't really rp to a rangers style). Was attacking trees/plants etc. in a forest (see? unranger like JUST A BIT!) so the party druid told him 3 times to stop, he didn't and kept hakcing up trees, so the druid pc grabs the dice n goes 'sorry man I gotta do this... i'm attacking w/my scimitar' lol but whatever, ranger went down to unconsiouness and was much more reasonable the next gaming session.
#30 zombie_babies Mar 31, 2008 8:38:15	I can think of another thing that CBT could mean....>.>; Disgusting. And yet hilarious. I do believe that is the first time I actually choked while reading something here. Well done, sir. :D
#31 trei Mar 31, 2008 13:59:33	Yeah I had a couple players who were sensitive to certain things, and their long friendship was almost destroyed because of their radically different playing styles. It's really sad when people let in-game stuff affect their real lives so much. I mean, D&D is escapism -- a place to act out our fantasies and relax and have fun. I found the best cure is taking a little break to go to a restaraunt or something and just RP as your characters eating at the tavern, just chilling. No fighting, monsters, etc. Reminds everyone that in real life, they are friends, and that the game is all about having fun, regardless of what gets said.
#32 tyrandor Mar 31, 2008 17:02:33	I have a guy like that in my group, in the sense that he has a trouble distinguishing IC and OOC stuff. A good exemple, in the setting we were playing, a certain race was considered as '2nd class citizen', physically & mentally weak, barely fit to live and quite often killed on sight. Well, a npc of that race 'joins' our group. My character was a minor noble, arrogant and brash. I would kick the 'new member' around and make no qualm about my feeling about him. The other members of the group were neutral about him, and none would protect him. Several game session later, we end up in front of a portal with no clue where the portal leads too... or if it's trapped somehow. I suggested, 'Let's throw Aza (the npc) in there. See what happens.'. My character wasn't joking. And the DM looks at me and says, "Wow. You're an *******." I'm taken a back a bit, and ask to the DM 'Did Aza just say that?', he says 'No, I did.' He then gave me a lecture about biggotery, small mindness and racism. Obviously, it had been weighing on him for a while because that sounded like something he had almost rehearsed. On the spot, I was too shocked to actually say anything to him, and just said, 'I throw Aza in the portal myself.' You can say what you want about the guy, but at least he's a fair DM - after a few rolls, Aza was thrown into the portal. There was a cold between me and the DM for a bit, but we got over it. We've known each other for years and he eventually he understood that the fact that I played a 'racist' character in a game - not only that, but racist toward a race that doesn't exist irl and that has a general worthlessness put on them in the very setting we played - didn't mean I was a RL biggot. I'm also fairly certain the DM though the npc was 'cool' and he really wanted us as player characters to have him tag along and show the game setting that this particular race wasn't worthless, making his story a tell about morality and equality... and it really ****** him off that my character was essentially not letting it happen. Still, to this day, as a DM or a fellow player, he'll sometime burst out 'Man, you're an ass!' when my character do something means. This wasn't an isolated event, although it's the only time he 'blew up' about it. I tend to play the Neutral 'shade of gray' guy, willing to cut corners to save the world, while he's the goodie two shoes guy (has played several paladin). I find it annoying that he doesn't seem to understand that just because my character isn't above hitting an unarmed and restrained man... that doesn't mean I would. I found downright ridiculous that he gets outraged at the the thing people do in a roleplaying game.