Spoiler
...one monster in each room!
...one monster in each room!
You have to be careful though because a) a lot of people will simply dig in to the trenches deeper if they feel they are being criticized and b) it's quite possible the DM thinks he has actually come up with something different (hey at least it wasn't "you're all sitting at a table in the local tavern when . . . ")
In my experience politeness works best, particularly when you are doing so in private instead of calling him out in front of the group.
As for my own bad openings: The closest I got was an Eberron game that started off with us on an airship that crashed -- killing the horse that one of the characters had spent a nice chunk of money on during creation. It was then compounded when the DM misread a template for some creatures that ended up being much more powerful than a level 1 party could handle and resulted in TPK . . . cue the shared nightmare.
To his credit, the DM apologized and admitted his error, so it wasn't a big deal.
You get a note for a job, show up and are teleported into a round room with 13 stone doors lining the entire wall. The only apparent exit has a wizard standing next to some levers. He pulls the first one and watches you as 3 of the large stones lift to reveal...Spoiler
...one monster in each room!
Depending on my character...
Typically, I'd try conversing with at least the most intelligent-seeming of the monsters, attempting to determine the parameters of the interview. I mean, killing them outright might wind up as foolish as killing the person interviewing you for a job.
If playing my paranoid/suspicious warlock, she'd automatically go invisible and spend a while just observing. Possibly, she would risk dimension-dooring through one of the other doors if she's scared enough, or just past a monster.
My kobold expert character...would not be particularly pleased with the situation, and would do her best to make herself scarce, show abject humility to the monsters and hide behind any that co-operated. Using the opportunity to try and set up as confusing an arena as possible for any that proved to be enemies, using anything from chalk to candles to using her agility to make the things run into each other.
As for my own bad openings: The closest I got was an Eberron game that started off with us on an airship that crashed -- killing the horse that one of the characters had spent a nice chunk of money on during creation.
I think this is a GOOD opening.
As a player, I don't mind the whole "you all meet in a tavern" thing, or the "you get hired for X" thing. It's the "suddenly, you're screwed!" and anything that starts out with combat that irk me.
As for my own bad openings: The closest I got was an Eberron game that started off with us on an airship that crashed -- killing the horse that one of the characters had spent a nice chunk of money on during creation. It was then compounded when the DM misread a template for some creatures that ended up being much more powerful than a level 1 party could handle and resulted in TPK . . . cue the shared nightmare.
Well... at least the horse didn't fly through the air and smash it's owner into the ground
On a side note, I don't recall the last time I actually had to purchase a horse for my character at creation, but I have played several characters who didn't start out with a mount, sometimes due to my own choice. My latest character, Mikael the ranger, didn't start out with a horse
Ah, I remember a particularly good opening from a game I played with my first gaming group years ago. We were playing a mid-level evil game and I asked the DM if I could play a deathknight. She said that was fine, but her one condition is that she would decide how my character entered the game. My character, a former paladin and noble lord, had a noose around his neck, a hood pulled over his head and a stool under his feet, about to be hanged by a lynch mob of peasants revolting against his tyrannical rule. In response to the look on my face, she replied "hey, you're not born as a deathknight. You're made into one." Good times
Wow. That is absolutely awesome.
The game's I've run, in reverse order:
Eberron- Players know an NPC and may have seen each other during the Last War. They meet for free food and a party to celebrate the war's end and their survival in an annual party
Homebrew Nongood- Various PC backgrounds brought together to work in a mercenary guild (needed PC backgrounds & goals, gave a prologue to the main plot, same time as the Legendary campaign below)
Homebrew Legendary- PCs awake in a room, some have memory of the world and themselves, some have memory of a very different world, they are all "special" and have unique classes & powers (PCs had the option to give detailed backgrounds from any world. it took place two Ages after the original campaign and the original PCs were legends and forgotten gods]
website to each of the above
D20 Modern- PCs were all connected to a community club, sponsors, instructors, underprivileged youth being tutored, then bad things happen in the Hood where one PC lives (pregenerated characters, very short-lived)
Hombrew Original, Bran N'or- Did solo or duo adventures with each PC and brought them into a central location/event for the first full group session. (new world so PCs had a loose background and developed personalities and goals before being brought together. went from 1-30 levels and then divine)
G
I would have a problem with this.
If it's advertised as a job, and turns into monster fight for our lives, we've been tricked, not tested.
Maybe I'm a bellicose player but an npc doing this to my character is typically gonna be an enemy, for a long, long time, until the wizard is disposed of, or dealt with. And that's if my PC has good alignment.
I see it as a railroad, big time.
But, surprisingly, I'd be cool with the airship crash, and losing a valuable horse.
But if the airship crash was caused by an NPC, that NPC meet's the wizard from example one's fate.
That's how I feel about it.
It's the classic "interview/test". You cannot reach the wizard as there is a wall of force. There are no exits and the other door stones are unmovable. Solid stone, celing and floor.
So- what would you do? How do you play it?
The opening is hackneyed only in that the adventure that follows is unlikely to make sense. Assuming this is the intro for a first level party, then you have to wonder why the wiz spent all these resources to capture and contain 13 monsters and build the set; he could have hired an 8th level party to get the job done for less effort. If the wizard can actually cast Wall of Force, then there must be some plausible reason why he could not just do this job himself. If the explanation is that the high level wizard is simply too busy with more important matters, then why wasn't he too busy to construct the Let's Make a Deal set? If your PCs run this gauntlet-style interview and then find that the actual mission involves nothing more challenging then it really strains the willing suspension of disbelief.
Also, if the mission is one that the wizard actually wants to be completed successfully, then how does having the party start off by using potions or burning charges off their items to survive the interview help? If he can cast wall of force, then he is of high enough level to divine their motivations and know their capabilities. If he is not setting up his own mission for failure, then he should know who he is hiring without having to run them through 3 seasons of Survivor.
Perhaps he only divined that this was the test that would find the right candidate(s) and the PC(s) is/are not the first. perhaps he's just an evil **** and is having a little fun.
DM: You're all in cells in an Imperial base.
US: Can we talk to each other?
DM: No, you're in separate cells.
We all sit back for a minute, waiting for him to throw something at us.
US: Well?
DM: Well, you have to wait for the Imperials to come and get you.
US: Okay.
We wait more.
US: Well?
DM: Well what?
US: Are they coming for any of us?
DM: Oh no. You're not scheduled for interrogation until morning.
We tried a few escape attempts to get things going, tried communication, tried everything. I guess he was going to make us wait for tomorrow morning in Real Time! We finally decided to quit since nothing was happening, so he started grumbling at us for being impatient and advanced us to morning so we could actually play the game! Then he tried to act like we'd missed something by not waiting. The rest of the game went well, though.
Player: "Okay. . . I attempt to break out of the jail cell. Is there anything I can use?"
DM: "Yes, you see the key sitting on the ground right outside the cell, in a dead guard's hand."
Player: "I grab the key."
DM: "No you don't. . . because the key is an ILLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSION!!!"
Player: ". . . okay, I break down the gate."
DM: "Roll bend bars/lift gates."
Player: "Success."
DM: "No, you fail. . . because the bars aren't really there, it was all an ILLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSION! You aren't really in a jail cell, you're in a cave!"
Player: ". . . okay. . . I walk through the cave."
DM: "You fall down a pit. . . you didn't see it there because it was covered by an ILLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSION! And at the bottom of the pit there is a monster!"
Player: "I attack the monster!"
DM: "No you don't. . . the monster isn't there, because it's all an ILLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSION! In fact. . ."
Player: *develops an eye twitch."
DM: ". . . you weren't in a cave at all, you were actually in a castle, the cave was an ILLUUUU--."
Player: *grabs dice and starts flinging it at the DM, then grabs a hammergun and sets it to automatic fire.* "AN ILLUUUUUUUUUUUSION? AN ILLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSION? YOU WANT ILLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSIONS? IS THIS AN ILLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSION TOO?" *starts punching the DM in the arm until they both fall out of their chairs and their mom sends them into the corner to calm down.*
ILLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSION!!!
Player was too nice to the DM; he should have been punching in the throat. Although I do admire him for being able to hold off on beating the DM so long. I would have probably cracked his head open and feasted on the sweet sweet brain meats within after the 3rd "illusion".
Player was too nice to the DM; he should have been punching in the throat. Although I do admire him for being able to hold off on beating the DM so long. I would have probably cracked his head open and feasted on the sweet sweet brain meats within after the 3rd "illusion".
what brain? :P
what brain? :P
I'm sure the DM has a brain. I am not sure the DM has a functioning logic center. ;)
I think this is a GOOD opening.
I used it ... well it was a shipwreck, but in Eberron. The party are stuck on an island that was used as a prison by the Giant Civilisation of X'endrick, and later by the Dhakaani Empire.
I cannot stand DM's that are so dumb, ignorant, and unimaginative that the only way they can start a new campaign is with a, "You're in a tavern..." scene. AUGH!! What's even worse are one-shot games where the DM does that. In media res! Learn it, love it, use it!!
I absolutely loathe, "So... you're in town and there's a tavern here..." :angry:
I cannot stand DM's that are so dumb, ignorant, and unimaginative that the only way they can start a new campaign is with a, "You're in a tavern..." scene. AUGH!! What's even worse are one-shot games where the DM does that. In media res! Learn it, love it, use it!!
it may be unimaginative, but hardly dumb or "ignorant". its a perfectly logical place for a bunch of travelers to meet. just because its old doesn't make it somehow any less intuitive or intelligent.
how can a DM be all that dumb if they are doing something that makes a whole lot of sense?
it may be unimaginative, but hardly dumb or "ignorant". its a perfectly logical place for a bunch of travelers to meet. just because its old doesn't make it somehow any less intuitive or intelligent.
how can a DM be all that dumb if they are doing something that makes a whole lot of sense?
It's ignorant, it's dumb, and it's cliche. All three very good reasons to not do it. There are plenty of better ways to start a campaign and it's absolutely pointless for a one shot.
It's ignorant, it's dumb, and it's cliche. All three very good reasons to not do it. There are plenty of better ways to start a campaign and it's absolutely pointless for a one shot.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It's ignorant, it's dumb, and it's cliche. All three very good reasons to not do it. There are plenty of better ways to start a campaign and it's absolutely pointless for a one shot.
My first game started out it a tavern. Then it exploded. The players seemed to like it.
My first game started out it a tavern. Then it exploded. The players seemed to like it.
The tavern exploded, or your first game exploded? I hope your players wouldn't like the latter....
The thing is you took the job when you showed up after reading the note, and persumably you will get profit from surviving this ordeal. At least form the wizard's opinion anyways.
Anyways, some possible ways of handling this are:
-Diplomacy: if the monsters are intelligent try and convince them you are on the same side and that they should work together to free themselves from the wizard.
-Bluff them: Again if they are intelligent say loudly to the wizard "So this is all you have eh? Hardly worth my gold to purchase any of this lot from you, I want only the strongest of these three." then speaking to them and sounding as commanding as possible say "Alright which of you three is the toughest? Whichever of you is the strongest will come with me and be in charge of my slaves, so lets see which of you win in a fight" the object here is to get them to fight each other.
-Failing the above, I would try and kill them in an unussual manner, perhaps taking off my boot and beating them to death with it. I used a paper clip in a fight once and although it was a long and bitter fight I eventually won. Point is to make the battle interesting.
-Demand that the Wizard opens all the doors at once "What you want to test me, Duran Forthsword, with a mere 3 monsters?!? Why alone and unaided I have faced over two score such beasts armed only with a rusty dagger and my wits, This is not a challenge it is an insult. I demand you offer me a challenge worthy of my blade!"
I absolutely loathe, "So... you're in town and there's a tavern here..." :angry:
I have gone through great trouble in the past starting out the characters in different parts of the city and having them do their own things until i can brin gthem together, but the irony of it was that they, by their own initiative, ended up in a tavern together.
I have gone through great trouble in the past starting out the characters in different parts of the city and having them do their own things until i can bring them together, but the irony of it was that they, by their own initiative, ended up in a tavern together.
Same here. What can we say, it's the most obvious place for people to meet up.
Same here. What can we say, it's the most obvious place for people to meet up.
Although considering some D&D players the prison is a close second. Or the executioners block.
Although considering some D&D players the prison is a close second. Or the executioners block.
And don't forget ye olde brothel for the all-male party! (or a party looking for a really adventurous female compatriot)
The tavern exploded, or your first game exploded? I hope your players wouldn't like the latter....
That's why I said they seemed. It was hard to make out exactly what they were screaming as their bodies turned to pools of burbling slag.
That's why I said they seemed. It was hard to make out exactly what they were screaming as their bodies turned to pools of burbling slag.
So it was the game, then. Are you looking for new players now that your former players are...in a form that inhibits playing? 'Cause there are a few people I know who would look great as burbling slag.
It's ignorant, it's dumb, and it's cliche. All three very good reasons to not do it. There are plenty of better ways to start a campaign and it's absolutely pointless for a one shot.
You should avoid extreme statements like that. You just insulted a great many people on the boards. Even if you feel that way, it would have been more polite to say, "I don't like it when the DM starts us in a tavern. There are more creative ways to start a game." But instead, you offended and alienated a great many people reading your post.
-Count Dravda
My fighter was a very open, friendly fellow, always eager to help anyone in distress, so I wandered up with a normal "Ain't seen you around these parts, stranger. Welcome to our humble town. Can I ask what brings you here?"
"Nothin'."
"Let me at least buy you a round to say 'welcome'."
"No thanks."
"A guy who refuses a free drink must have something pretty big distracting him. I understand if it's personal, but folks around here are ready to lend a hand if need be. Don't hesitate to give a shout."
I left the stranger and advised the rest of the party to keep an eye on him. Seemed suspicious, so I figured when the DM had the stranger leave the bar that we'd follow him to some kind of story lead.
Nope, he went right to his room and went to bed. The following day he left town. The Thief broke into the room to see if anything had been left behind. Nope. This is how all other investigations went. Nothing. No clues. No story leads.
I got bored and started reading a comic book, one of the other players asked me about something in my running campaign, and everyone just sort of shifted places, Rob included, and I started running my game. It was truly THE worst start in a bar/tavern/inn I have ever seen.
Moral of the story: Don't wing it if you don't know how.
You should avoid extreme statements like that. You just insulted a great many people on the boards. Even if you feel that way, it would have been more polite to say, "I don't like it when the DM starts us in a tavern. There are more creative ways to start a game." But instead, you offended and alienated a great many people reading your post.
Wow, so does everyone who is offended by anything email you, or are you just psychic?
And since we're giving advice, perhaps you should say, "You should avoid extreme statements like that, if you don't want to risk alienating people."
That way it doesn't seem so much like your just making another knee-jerk assumption.
But hey, how about a community history lesson? What famous events or ideas in the RW got their starts or had their catalysts in a tavern? I do believe the American Revolution had Sam Adam's tavern (I think it was called "The Green Dragon", maybe some resident Bostonians can confirm or deny this?) figure prominently in its birth. Anybody else, from anywhere? Might be interesting to know how many actual events started out "You're in a tavern..."
You should avoid extreme statements like that. You just insulted a great many people on the boards. Even if you feel that way, it would have been more polite to say, "I don't like it when the DM starts us in a tavern. There are more creative ways to start a game." But instead, you offended and alienated a great many people reading your post.
I'll use extremes whenever I damn well please. Starting a campaign in a tavern is cliche, it's dumb, and it's ignorance and incompetence on the part of the dm. If you can't come up with a better way to start your campaign than in a tavern, you shouldn't be dm'ing in the first place.I've left games when a dm starts everyone off in the tavern. Throwing together groups in that fashion just feels wrong and forced and completely breaks my suspension of disbelief. I'd rather decide out of character how the game starts and go from there.
Starting a campaign in a tavern is cliche, it's dumb, and it's ignorance and incompetence on the part of the dm.
While I can definitely agree with you that starting in a tavern can be cliche, it's not really dumb nor ignorant considering the fact that it is a tested method that works, makes sense, and doesn't eat up too much time. It's actually rather smart in those regards (although that doesn't mean it is a good idea, considering it is one of the more bland ways to start a campaign and can give a bad impression). Just because the DM didn't pay any real attention to the creative detail of the beginning of the campaign doesn't mean it's a bad campaign. Maybe the DM had been busy beforehand with non-game stuff, and has a good story planned out, but has to wing the beginning due to spending his time focusing on the more important aspects of the game. I would consider starting in a tavern acceptable in that situation.
I assume if the tavern start was interesting and unique, you wouldn't be leaving the game. It's not like tavern automatically = cliche.
I absolutely loathe, "So... you're in town and there's a tavern here..." :angry:
I cannot stand DM's that are so dumb, ignorant, and unimaginative that the only way they can start a new campaign is with a, "You're in a tavern..." scene. AUGH!! What's even worse are one-shot games where the DM does that. In media res! Learn it, love it, use it!!
That's it...every campaign I run for the next decade will now start "It's a dark and stormy night...", and will involve a tavern!
In fact, my next one will now be:
"It's a dark and stormy night. A sudden peal of thunder rouses you from your dreams. Lightning briefly illuminates your small rented room above the tavern. As you begin to drift back to sleep, A loud rap on the door awakens you once again. 'Hurry', a muffled voice calls from the hallway, 'they're coming! It's not safe, you have to go...Now!...' "
I've left games when a dm starts everyone off in the tavern. Throwing together groups in that fashion just feels wrong and forced and completely breaks my suspension of disbelief. I'd rather decide out of character how the game starts and go from there.
Hellooooooooo ignor(ant) list!
Ninja edit: please learn what ignorant really means. hint: you're a textbook example.
Aria, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. I you want to preach to people who already think like you, maybe, but if you're trying to encourage the "dumb, ignorant and incompetent" (your words) DMs to be more creative, insulting them is not likely to do much besides annoy them, at best.
I've left games when a dm starts everyone off in the tavern. Throwing together groups in that fashion just feels wrong and forced and completely breaks my suspension of disbelief. I'd rather decide out of character how the game starts and go from there.
You quit games over that? A bit too dramatic don't you think? There must have been something else.
Hellooooooooo ignor(ant) list! Ninja edit: please learn what ignorant really means. hint: you're a textbook example.
I know perfectly well what ignorant means. You're just failing to comprehend the context in which it's being used here. DM's who cannot come up with anything other than starting their game in a tavern are ignorant of the possibilities inherent in their campaign setting. Unless of course the entire campaign setting is the tavern, which is a meta-philosophical style of campaign that could be interesting. Sort of like that one movie or tv show where the whole thing was on this floor in between floors inside someone's head. At least that's what I recall, which may or may not be correct.
Aria, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. I you want to preach to people who already think like you, maybe, but if you're trying to encourage the "dumb, ignorant and incompetent" (your words) DMs to be more creative, insulting them is not likely to do much besides annoy them, at best.
That old saying about catching more flies with honey doesn't hold any vinegar. I've oft found that insults and punishment are more motivating than kind words and a disappointed look.
You quit games over that? A bit too dramatic don't you think? There must have been something else.
Nope, it was just the fact that the game started in the tavern. Actually, several games, but the most recent one was a pickup game in the Wizards chat. A pickup game starting in a tavern wastes so much time while the characters get to know each other and the dm throws some hackneyed adventure bait at the group.
For pick up games, I'd rather start in media res, in the middle of things. Just to get the game going to the real interesting parts. Having started in a tavern in so many games, it has gotten old and boring and just plain ridiculous. I'm tired of it. It's such a lame crutch for incompetent dm's.
That old saying about catching more flies with honey doesn't hold any vinegar. I've oft found that insults and punishment are more motivating than kind words and a disappointed look.
I don't know, but, I've done it both ways, and while I found that standing up on the soapbox, dealing out insults and blanket judgements is very self gratifying in the short term, it never convinces anyone.
The other saying, "you'll go farther with a kick in the ass than with a pat on the back", it doesn't work too well either.
I'll give you that on the web you won't see much difference between the two ways. When was the last time you actually convinced someone taking an active part on the opposing side of a forum argument? But it does not matter. It's like that guy in Thank You for Smoking says his kid when he's trying to explain what arguing in public is all about: "I'm not going after you, I'm going after them", indicating the public.
For pick up games, I'd rather start in media res, in the middle of things.
I prefer to start in the exposition, in the introduction, where things are being explained.
Do you always have to be so patronizing in your tone?
Do you always have to be so patronizing in your tone?
Yes.