Many people say more combat events shouldn't last over 6 turns, maybe 10 at the most, unless its something like a dragon! My normal combat events tend to last some where around 30 turns......
Ahh, sorry, just some random 4e ranting, let me get to my actual question.....
My ranger, is a half-elf, his dex is a 17. He shoots an arrows with his long bow, with the power careful strike attack, which gives him a +2 to his attack. He is at level 7 at the time. And I rolled an 18.
So, thats a +3 from dex, +3 from half the level, +2 because of long bow proficiency. and even a weapon focus +1. So a +9 at level 7 to an attack roll, that is totaling a 27.
I miss. I shoot another one of the random monsters near by. this time a 17. both misses. I do a twin strike, so no plus 2. On the other monsters in the fight 16, 14. MISS MISS. After a while in combat, I finally roll a 19 with careful strike and hit. So the monsters had apparently an ac of 27.
So its safe to say, all of the monsters I am fighting too strong? Is my character too week. WHY DO I HAVE A 1/10 chance of HITTING ANYTHING. Basically, that's what my contribution to any of the fights are. Until, the fighter does something like crack the shell, and the paladin does what he does that gives me a plus to my attack "I forget what i was called." I can't hit anything unless I roll a 20.
Is this me? Is this the DM?
It sounds like the DM threw a monster that was too high level at you guys. Normally, with decent stats like you have, you should hit a monster of your own level on a natural 11-15. Also, are you at least 6th level without a magic weapon? That's subpar equipment, and will definitely factor into your effectiveness.
There is a certain level of weapon, armor, and either amulet or cloak enhancement bonus that you're expected to have by certain levels. Without this, you will notice a drop in effectiveness.
1-5: +1
6-10: +2
11-15: +3
16-20: +4
21-25: +5
26-30: +6
In regards your complaints about powers, if you don't want to worry about expending powers, and you want to be the "standard attack every round" type of fighter/ranger/rogue that 3E had, then feel free to do so. No one says you have to use your encounters or dailies.
As for your comment about Encounters/Dailies, don't take what you think might be useful, take what best fits the style of your character. Daily powers should be reserved for "boss" fights, unless you're being overwhelmed. I've noticed my party tends to open with encounter powers, and some players will go as far as to pop their Action Point and use two encounter powers in the first round of combat, to take out/damage as many baddies as possible as soon as possible.
I'm hoping you're exaggerating about 30+ rounds, but if you aren't it is likely tied to the ridiculous ACs the monsters have. It's not you, it's the monsters.
And by the way, Weapon Focus only grants a bonus to Damage now, not attack roll, so you would want to reduce your to-hit chances by 1
Unless of course you meant Prime Shot, which gives a +1 bonus if you're the closest to your target.You all should have several decent magic items by now, or at least the opportunity to create/buy +1 items. If you don't, then it's back to your DM again. Talk to him about why he is running things how he is, maybe there's some reason or something (perhaps you weren't "supposed to" fight that creature or something like that). I'm not going to unilaterally accuse your DM of being bad with just one post.
Another (slight) possibility is that for whatever reason you were attacking enemies with Concealment/Cover while your allies were at better angles. Concealment, Cover, and other such things can modify your chances to hit, and there is a tiny chance the monster was somehow given the ability to block ranged attacks better than melee.
You all should have several decent magic items by now, or at least the opportunity to create/buy +1 items. If you don't, then it's back to your DM again. Talk to him about why he is running things how he is, maybe there's some reason or something (perhaps you weren't "supposed to" fight that creature or something like that). I'm not going to unilaterally accuse your DM of being bad with just one post.
And if he says "I'm running a low-magic campaign, so that's why you don't need magic items", don't buy that BS. Tell him:
"Low-magic campaigns have never worked, mathematically, and less so in 4E. Without magic items, the game's math gets progressively harder up to level 10-15, after which it will probably be unplayable."
There was a thread a while back about running an almost-no-magic-items game, and the DM decided to grant all characters a +1 to attack, damage, and all defenses at levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30, and a bonus feat at level 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26. One the rare occasion that a magic item was found, the enhancement bonus would not stack, so there were no balance issues.
If you roll a natural 18 or above, and have good modifiers for your level, but still miss the monsters:
Do: Run away, very quickly.
Do Not: Stand there for several rounds so you can get pummeled by the obviously-much-stronger-than-you're-supposed-to-be-fighting creatures.
Unfortunatly there are going to be creatures that are more powerful then yourselves in the world. As a long time advocate of the DM vs PC ( In the fun, pretend evil DM, "Let the kids win" kinda way not the mean, no fun, DM power trip way) I think it can be fun to be put on the run every once in a while as long as you're not constantly over matched to the point where you can never hit and ALWAYS have to run.
And tell your DM to pony up with the magic items. No magic items at level 7 .....sheesh.
...WHY DO I HAVE A 1/10 chance of HITTING ANYTHING. Basically, that's what my contribution to any of the fights are. Until, the fighter does something like crack the shell, and the paladin does what he does that gives me a plus to my attack "I forget what i was called." I can't hit anything unless I roll a 20.
Is this me? Is this the DM?
If you're regularly fighting monsters that you can only hit on a natural 19 or 20, blame your DM. He's making the encounters too high level.
However if this only happened once, then it's possible the DM intentionally had an encounter that you were supposed to run away from instead of fight.
I have a DM, that everything needs to make sense to him, improved evasion from 3.5, made no sense to him, so he banned it. He didn't find it physcially possible to get improved evasion. And i agreed, it wasn't possible, THAT WAS THE POINT.
Items, I dont know what his deal with items are. Even though we actually can get magical items, we can see them, hell we stole one. The fact to actually "legally" trade for one is just werid. In his campaign, the world has gone to hell. Gold is no longer important. We now have to "barter" for everthing. So if we want a new shield, we have to trade 3 daggers. Strangly, I find that he hate me having more then 30 arrows. Every time I tried to get more, NO ONE HAS A QUIVER, YOU CANT TRADE FOR A QUIVER. You have 3 bags of gold, TO BAD GOLD ISN'T VALUABLE NOW, YOU CANT EAT WITH GOLD.
So take that mentality and apply it to when you want to get a magical item. We appearntly had to trade all of our "extra" gear, that would be ever bed roll, ever extra dagger, all of our oil pints and rope, AND the magical Neckless
"the only magical item we had" that gave a +1 deflection ac bonus.
So, we didn't trade it. His words on magical items during our 3.5 campaign. "it doesn't make sense that there would be that many magical items, that would make wizards and sorcs extremely powerful, both encomically and combat wise"
So bottom line is, I can't get items with this DM to help me. It would all have to be class and feat base abilities.
My stats for my character came from the stat array in the player hand book. Because the DM is so balance afried, someone that has a total score over a +7 would some how throw the balance of the game completely out of wack.
For this fighter we where fighting foulspawns, but with modified stats.
Is this me? Is this the DM?
If it's not just a once or twice thing, It's the DM. At your level it isn't unreasonable that you might occasionally hit a monster that you stand so little chance of hitting. It is also not unreasonable that your DM might throw the encounter together in a hurry and not realize that the AC is so far out of the PCs league. But if it is happening every encounter, every game then your DM is either throwing monsters way above your level at you far too often or is buffin up otherwise okay monsters to an unreasonable level.
Fox
If he is so balance worried he should realize 4th is designed for balance already. What he is doing is making it horribly unbalanced. That being said you really should have 19 to dex already.
I am in a situation with a bad DM/Campaign setting as well so I feel your pain.
My only suggestion is steal everything not nailed down. Then get a pry bar and take the rest. Barter people back their own stuff. Randomly kill npcs just to take their stuff. Do this until he starts giving you more stuff in regular encounters. In short if you see someone with a quiver shout "mine" then take them from his dead body.
Moding stats for no reason then to make it way to hard is bad.
As it is, the imbalance between monsters and players is just going to increase the higher your level, until he just TPK's the party. Aside from the fact that not hitting just makes combats take ten times longer than they normally should.
For this fighter we where fighting foulspawns, but with modified stats.
Well, the highest AC on the standard Foulspawns is 25, on a level 9 soldier. That's exactly what the formula says it should be (because soldiers are defense-heavy).
The important question is this: Has your DM realized that it was a mistake?
Also, will he consider granting all characters a non-magical enhancement bonus to attacks, damage, and defenses in lieu of magic items? If not, the problem is only going to get worse, and you can tell him that.
Also, does he allow the Enchant Magic Item ritual? If so, you can just make your own.
I think the absolute first lesson as a DM I learned when trying out 4e was to watch out for the monster's defenses. A party can quite easily handle the hit points and offenses of a monster 6-7 levels above them (as long as the xp total for the encounter is reasonable), but getting through their defenses is the real problem.
The thing that taught me my lesson was trying to throw three hobgoblin soldiers at a L1 party. XP total was reasonable, but the hobgoblins are AC20, AC22 if they are in a phalanx. That was just a miserable fight both for me and for the players...they just couldn't hit anything. And the fight drug on for 20 rounds and the party had to take an extended rest afterwards.
The monsters you were fighting had too high an AC. A party's striker should be hitting most monsters on a roll somewhere between 7 and 13, and the uber nasty supertough bosses shouldn't take more than a 15, 16 tops. Otherwise, things will really bog down.
One other comment...I think a reasonable 4e fight should average around 8-12 rounds (maybe a bit longer for a solo fight), not 6 like you said nor 30 like you were seeing. If you compare your damage output to the monster's hit points at your level, it is going to be tough to whittle through all those hit points in 5-6 rounds most of the time.
Agree, definitely the DM.
I think the absolute first lesson as a DM I learned when trying out 4e was to watch out for the monster's defenses. A party can quite easily handle the hit points and offenses of a monster 6-7 levels above them (as long as the xp total for the encounter is reasonable), but getting through their defenses is the real problem.
The thing that taught me my lesson was trying to throw three hobgoblin soldiers at a L1 party. XP total was reasonable, but the hobgoblins are AC20, AC22 if they are in a phalanx. That was just a miserable fight both for me and for the players...they just couldn't hit anything. And the fight drug on for 20 rounds and the party had to take an extended rest afterwards.
The monsters you were fighting had too high an AC. A party's striker should be hitting most monsters on a roll somewhere between 7 and 13, and the uber nasty supertough bosses shouldn't take more than a 15, 16 tops. Otherwise, things will really bog down.
One other comment...I think a reasonable 4e fight should average around 8-12 rounds (maybe a bit longer for a solo fight), not 6 like you said nor 30 like you were seeing. If you compare your damage output to the monster's hit points at your level, it is going to be tough to whittle through all those hit points in 5-6 rounds most of the time.
WRT hobgoblins & AC: It's not surprising that consummate soldiers such as Hobgoblins should have a high AC. The way to combat that is to either have a warlord/cleric in the group, to grant bonuses from their attacks; or to use superior tactics against them. Shift around, get combat advantage, make use of every little ability you can.
Or, go after different defenses. If you have a warlock, lazer cleric, or wizard, they're going to be going after Reflex or Will most of the time, and sometimes Fort. Don't intentionally target AC unless you have to or you are optimized for it.
WRT hobgoblins & AC: It's not surprising that consummate soldiers such as Hobgoblins should have a high AC. The way to combat that is to either have a warlord/cleric in the group, to grant bonuses from their attacks; or to use superior tactics against them. Shift around, get combat advantage, make use of every little ability you can.
Or, go after different defenses. If you have a warlock, lazer cleric, or wizard, they're going to be going after Reflex or Will most of the time, and sometimes Fort. Don't intentionally target AC unless you have to or you are optimized for it.
Also, Bull Rush (which anyone can do) is a good way to separate Hobgoblins.
Your DM has completely unbalanced the game.
Your DM sounds like he doesn't quite get the whole system yet. It's new, people are experimenting. Give it time.
In regards your complaints about powers, if you don't want to worry about expending powers, and you want to be the "standard attack every round" type of fighter/ranger/rogue that 3E had, then feel free to do so. No one says you have to use your encounters or dailies.
Then there would be no point in having them, since many of the games mechanics seems to be based on the idea that you will use them. However, the ironic thing is, that actually what I have been doing. Since none of my powers seem to actually help me in anyway when I can't hit anything. That would be great if there was a feat that let you sack all of your powers "minus the at will powers" and give you bonuses for doing so.
So it seems clear, that the monsters ac shouldn't even be that high. I can only guess on how are fight with the "undead dragon" will be today. Any hints on fighting an undead dragon in these conditions?
Here are all the magical items the party has. 1. A neckless that gives a +1 deflection bonus.
2. light leather armor that gives an additional +1 to ac and once a day can increase any save by +2 and an immediate action.
That is all. O and a piece of wood that can turn into a small row boat that fits 3 people. "these 4 of us mind you." Everything else are standard weapons and items. We are a party of 4, 2 fighters, 1 paladin, and a ranger. "I KNOW WE DON'T HAVE A CLERIC!" Wait, this is clrealy a different question all together, I'll but it in another post.
He believe that item dependency was removed from 4e.
Apparently, he thought that fight was fine, because "we all lived through it" and still had healing surges. Mind you WE ALL USED SECOND WIND, AND WHERE AT A POINT THAT ONE MORE HIT WOULD HAVE KILLED US. I believe one of us even got incapacitated.
If we get through a fight with a few hits, he thinks it was too easy. At least, that's me thinking how he thinks based on what he said.
He tried so hard to "balance" the game too. He even forced us to use an array for our characters. The other option was to roll 3 dice, and if your total stats went over a +9, you had to pick an array, since that would be unbalanced. He thinks the player that actually managed to get the full +9 "the paladin" is a little bit too useful in combat.
There is a certain level of weapon, armor, and either amulet or cloak enhancement bonus that you're expected to have by certain levels. Without this, you will notice a drop in effectiveness.
1-5: +1
6-10: +2
11-15: +3
16-20: +4
21-25: +5
26-30: +6
Thank you for that. I will probably need to use that. Is there something in the dm book like this?
Thank you for that. I will probably need to use that. Is there something in the dm book like this?
Yeah, you can ask your DM to look at the Treasure Parcels in the DMG, page 126, and the entry on awarding treasure on page 125. This indicates that every level, a party of 5 should be getting about 4 magic items altogether, of levels exceeding the party's level. Not only that, but the DMG says that the DM should specifically put in magic items that the party will enjoy (if no one in the party uses a bow, don't put in a magic bow). He should be custom-tailoring the loot to appeal to your party.
Page 225 of the PHB has the table I cited.
You might also simply ask him for a practical example of his position. Ask him to show you how, at level 30, any character could possibly hit an Ancient Red Dragon on anything but a natural 20. If he cannot show you, then you have a reasonable argument for him being wrong. Here's the math worked out for you ahead of time:
• Any race with a +2 STR can start with 20, and can increase that 8 times over 30 levels to a total of 28 (+9).
• The Demigod Epic destiny grants +2 to any stat, so that's a total of 30 (+10).
• Half-Level bonus at level 30 is +15.
• If you're a one-handed specialty fighter using a longsword, that's +1 from the class feature, and +3 proficiency.
That's a total of +29 to hit, requiring a 19 or better to hit an Ancient Red Dragon's AC, and that's a hyper-optimized attack bonus build (something your DM seems to dread).
Also, that same Ancient Red Dragon has +37 to hit with its bite. Let's take a look at how you can improve your AC.
• Half-level bonus (+15)
• Doing to DEX what the previous example did to STR, for a +10 bonus
• Wearing Hide Armor (+3) with the Hide Armor Specialization feat (+1)
• Carrying a Heavy Shield (+2)
• Base 10
That's a total AC of 41, meaning the dragon will hit on a 4 or better, and again, this is a hyper-optimized AC build (given the assumption of no magic items).
Give him these examples and ask him how he explains this discrepancy if characters do not actually need magic items.
It's true that magic-item dependancy is reduced in 4E, but it is not eliminated, by any means. You no longer need the Belt of Giant's Strength +6, Amulet of Health +6, +5 Greatsword, Ring of Protection +5, and Cloak of Resistance +5 just to stay competitive. All you really need are a magic weapon/implement, magic armor, and a magic shoulders item (amulet or cloak). Anything beyond that is just toys.
Frankly, I understand the desire to play, but if my DM were to pull this kind of crap, I wouldn't put up with it. I'd start my own game, and I don't say that lightly.
In practice, your character will end up with some items that are three or four levels above your level and other that are several levels below.
[snip]...[snip]
As you adventure, you'll come across magic items as part of the treasure you acquire. Often, these are magic items much higher than your level - items you can't enchant and can't easily afford to buy. Ideally, these are items that someone in your party can use effectively, which makes them very rewarding treasure.
The language here is definitely indicative, to me, that a constant inflow of magic items, particularly ones above your characters' levels, is expected, and is worked into the balance of the game. Frankly according to the Magic Item parcels in the DMG, a level 8 party could have 2-3 items with +3 enhancement bonuses, and most of your gear should be at least +2 if not +1.
He believe that item dependency was removed from 4e.
The designers did promise to reduce/remove item dependancy from 4e, but they half-@ssed it. Running a low magical item game is fine, but a DM has to compensate for the lack of basic bonuses in one of two ways:
1. Give the PCs enhancement bonuses to attacks and defenses and give them critical dice at each 'half-tier' when they would get a similar set of bonuses in a normal game. This is how I run my low magical item campaign.
2. Increase monster level for the purpose of XP and their ability to challenge PCs in a fight. I haven't done the math, but something like +1 to monster level per 'half-tier' should be about right.
So yeah, you need to either discuss this with your group and DM or be ready to make several replacement characters before your DM figures it out for himself or your group breaks up to find a new DM.
TS
1) Have him include automatic enhancement bonus.
2) Tell him that if you aren't allowed to do things "that make no sense" then he cannot send anything against you that doesn't "make sense". Which means Dragons, Zombies, Gods, Mages, Clerics.. And anything involving magic is right out. Why? Because these aren't common things.
3) Magical items are no longer as powerful as they were. Either he includes them or he works out what to put in their stead.
Telling your players that they "can't have better than this" is saying that you're going to get them killed. ANd have him look at the books and not just come up with idiotic rules without figuring out how they'll impact the game.
As with all things, you should always know the rules, master them, and memorize them, before you change them (got that wisdom from How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way).
But novacat has it right. Learn the rules before you change them. Your DM obviously hasn't looked very much at the rules.
I have my own House Rules in place. However I also have all the core books just short of memorized by now.
There are numerous powers from other classes that can provide you with a bonus to hit. Not to mention tactical positioning, etc...
I've found that often working together as a unit is necessary to reliably hit some of the tougher solo mobs.
But in general your concern is valid. The mathematics are VERY tight in this new system, which will take players and DMs alike some time to process. No longer is a +1 or +2 not so important. It's critical.
With a Dexterity of 17 (+3) and a longbow (+2) you have a total of +5 to hit. Against most 1st-level monsters (AC 15), that means that a 10+ does the trick. There are other things that can help increase your attack bonus, such characters using powers that can grant power bonuses (lance of faith) or even basic class features like Prime Shot (+1 to hit).
Now, since you said that you have a level bonus of +3, this means that you're either 6th- or 7th-level. This means that your total attack bonus should be +8 before factoring in magic items. At your level, monsters should have an AC ranging from 17-25 (assuming that your DM attempts to stick within feasible level boundaries).
Mostly, their AC should be about 19-22, however, and your benchmark AC is 20 (meaning you would need to get about a 12 to hit).
Now, assuming that you're 6th-level, you should have at least a +2 weapon. A pregen character would have a +2 [something] weapon, but a simple +2 magic longbow is a level 6 item: easily within your grasp. This would push your attack bonus up to an even +10, changing that 12+ into a 10+ before factoring other modifiers.
What this tells me is that your DM is either artificially increasing the AC of monsters by about...6 or so points, or is using monsters that are probably about 6 levels higher than what is reasonable. As is stands, you have a little worse than a half-and-half chance at hitting them. If an 18 cannot do it, then the monster is far too difficult.
If your DM insists on a low- or no-magic campaign, its not too difficult to do. With a little planning your DM just needs to either grant out a flat attack bonus increase for everyone (just boost your level-based bonus) every few levels. This would mean that at your level, your bonus wouldnt be +3, it would be +5. That would easily bridge the gap.
He would otherwise need to adjust the defenses of monsters down. How far depends on what type of magic items you would normally have. This would require very little effort and research on his part.
So, thats a +3 from dex, +3 from half the level, +2 because of long bow proficiency. and even a weapon focus +1. So a +9 at level 7 to an attack roll, that is totaling a 27.
Um...
Well, first off, Weapon Focus doesn't give a bonus to hit, it gives a bonus to damage.
Second, don't you have a magical weapon? At level 7, you should have at least a +2 longbow. That'd give you a total of +10 to hit (+3 dex, +3 level, +2 long bow proficiency, +2 enchancement from magic item). A lot of characters would have about +1 more to hit than you do at this point, but meh, not a huge deal.
Third, the DM simply shouldn't be throwing a monster with AC 27 at you.
It sounds to me like your DM is using overlevel monsters which aren't appropriate for your party. Overlevel soldiers are especially difficult to hit.
So bottom line is, I can't get items with this DM to help me. It would all have to be class and feat base abilities.
I'd recommend not playing with him, or alternatively, using someone else as the DM. It is clear he doesn't really know what he's doing.
1 level 2 magic item
2 level 3 magic items
3 level 4 magic items
4 level 5 magic items
4 level 6 magic items
4 level 7 magic items
3 level 8 magic items
2 level 9 magic items
1 level 10 magic item
and over 90,000 gold, which could be used to buy more magic items...
This results in each character having about 5 magic items, 2 of which are level 7 or higher. That's how the game is balanced.
I'd recommend not playing with him, or alternatively, using someone else as the DM. It is clear he doesn't really know what he's doing.
Agreed.