Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arcos Jul 09, 2008 1:47:34	Note: This concerns a 3.5E item, but the specific item doesn't matter. It could just as easily be something from 4th edition or 1st edition. My DM recently got Weapons of Legacy and distributed my wizard a magical dagger. This dagger will apparently permanently penalize me three caster levels to use and I -shockingly- want nothing to do with it. I feel bad about simply selling the item off, though, since my DM obviously wants to build at least a side quest around this dagger. I told him OOC that I really didn't want the magic weapon if it would gimp my character, but he insists it is worth it. How do you handle it when a DM gives your character an item he thinks is important but you (and your character! What wizard is going to hobble his spellcasting abilities for a puny melee weapon?) think is garbage?
#2 arturius1 Jul 09, 2008 1:55:18	Sounds like a custom item he made. All legacy items have penalties bound to them, and generally are outweighed by the benefits. Not sure why your DM is giving a wizard a melee weapon, but that's neither here nor there. Ask him to change the penalties to a different selection. Or simply don't perform the rituals. If possible, can you post the stats of the item?
#3 etarnon Jul 09, 2008 1:56:10	Play it out in character. The mage finds that the thing reduces his powers. He sells it off, or tries to. Despite what the DM has planned your mage (should) have free will. Then after selling it, finding out how utterly cool it was, rue the day. Your DM and you need to have a heart to heart about player choice in his games. You might end up leaving, if he doesn't listen. As a DM, if you didn't want it, we'd develop some story about your mage not wanting it. To me, it's all story, whether your pc gets and likes the item, or refuses it, it all goes into the campaign history. Good luck.
#4 i_roll_ones Jul 09, 2008 2:00:13	I would normally say to test it out, but if your DM thinks that ANYTHING other then becoming a rank 20 god is going to balance out the lack of three caster levels, then there is probably an issue. Now, I'm not up on the WoL business, but do you get penalized if you don't use it? If not, just tuck it in the bottom of your pack until it becomes useful. If it never does...Uh, go through the plot, and then decree that the dagger is too powerful for a mortal to wield, and hand it over to the local representative of your deity, hoping that their divine wisdom will show them what to do with such a powerful artifact? Or maybe your character is JUST that religious. If merely having the WoL kicking around in your bags is enough to trigger the Gimping of Doom, then do what your character would do. Avoid ANY fights, and rush to your nearest source of dispelling. Plead with your master to break the enchantment on you, that befuddles your mind and prevents further study of the arcane. Show up at the temple of your god(Or any, if your character doesn't have one special one) and beg for the curse to be broken. Run away from combat, since someone might have put this curse on your character to weaken him to kill him. Or, because you want to live to see another day. His mind has been ravaged by an unknown force, so the character might just plain panic. But tell your DM your course of action before doing either. If he insists that you use it, tell him that it robs your character of his hard won, ultra important, caster levels. In essence, the character is several levels lower, with a few more HP. Tell him that while it is not important for you to know what that the dagger does, but if it continues to sap caster levels, it is beyond useless, it is weakening the character to a very very very large degree.
#5 Arcane_Guyver Jul 09, 2008 3:21:09	...my DM obviously wants to build at least a side quest around this dagger. I told him OOC that I really didn't want the magic weapon if it would gimp my character, but he insists it is worth it. Here's the heart of the problem - the DM is taking a fairly big aspect of the character build away from you to fit his story. I recommend talking to him and try to come up with a plot item that's more in line with your vision of your character. It is cool when a PC finds an unexpected item and becomes so enamored with it that it alters his/her character build. This has to be a natural choice for the player, though, not one forced on him/her by the DM.
#6 jutter Jul 09, 2008 6:19:05	How do you handle it when a DM gives your character an item he thinks is important but you (and your character! What wizard is going to hobble his spellcasting abilities for a puny melee weapon?) think is garbage? I'd ditch the item in game, sending a clear message to my DM that this stank and is not a good way to involve my character in a plot. There is no need to get all sensitive about it on either side. Now if the item 'mysteriously' shows up in your backpack again, then it starts becoming a problem.
#7 drmorganes Jul 09, 2008 7:08:18	Rather than in-game shenanigans, why not ask the DM point-blank how in zarking fardwarks this little dagger is going to make up for the loss of THREE caster levels? Keep in mind, too, that legacy weapons generally impose several small cumulative penalties over time and grant bonuses which counter them - but only if you use the weapon. If this dagger hits you with a -3 caster level penalty right out of the gate and doesn't start to give anything back until you start to unlock its legacies, it's very poorly designed. However, if the caster level loss is spread out over several levels and is properly compensated as the legacies are unlocked, it probably does make sense. However, at this point I think you're within your right to ask for full disclosure. Caster level loss isn't on the same level as a penalty to attack rolls or saving throws, or a small HP loss. You're talking about a massive reduction in your character's core ability.
#8 Neutronium_Dragon Jul 09, 2008 8:28:40	While weapons of legacy are *supposed* to provide benefits which counter their penalties, in practice they rarely/never do - WoL is noted as being a great idea/terrible implementation book which almost always leaves you worse off to actually use.
#9 pariator Jul 09, 2008 10:41:27	If you just got it and haven't found anything out yet... personally I would follow the DM with his story. It may be gimping your character, but that shouldn't affect the story at all. The DM realizes you'll be missing 3 caster levels and should tailor his adventures / encounters for that.
#10 CCS Jul 09, 2008 11:50:38	I'd react to it "in game". I'd study it. I'd research the hells out of it, I'd keep it hiden under lock & key.... In short there'd probably be several game sessions that were really boring as I did this in game research. And if I didn't like what I'd discovered I'd not bring the dagger with me adventuring..... There's also the posibility that I'd switch characters. That way the game could proceed while my wizard spent days/weeks/months locked away studying this fabulous item (made that much more difficult due to the lv dampening).
#11 malcapricornis Jul 09, 2008 12:02:10	Summon a rust monster.
#12 inlicere Jul 09, 2008 12:27:05	How do you handle it when a DM gives your character an item he thinks is important but you (and your character! What wizard is going to hobble his spellcasting abilities for a puny melee weapon?) think is garbage? Ugh. I've been very lucky for the past several years, in that my DMs have been very interested in working with me when they come up with custom items, etc. However, there was that one DM who would literally redefine my character in mid-game, without consulting me... DM: You awake from a potent vision, in which it is revealed to you that you are, in fact, the earthly son of the High God Boo. You are permanently surrounded in a crackling nimbus of power, your skin is like flawless mithril, and glorious wings unfurl from your back. You can hurl 15d6 bolts of holy might at will. ME: Uh... I'm a 3rd-level Fighter. We're all 3rd-level characters. Is anyone else changed? DM: No, it's just you. I thought you would like this. ME: Uh... Really, I'd prefer to play the character as he was, if that's ok. I want him to fit in with the group. DM: No, you've had the vision. You're transformed. Mind you, this kind of thing happened multiple times, in-game, in front of the other players. Thankfully, his games were short-lived and, after a few of those we (all the players) went to a different group.
#13 rainkiss Jul 15, 2008 10:34:46	Give it to the party rogue. No caster levels, so not a big penalty for him at all.
#14 Kaganfindel Jul 15, 2008 11:25:13	I'm suspicious of a DM doing something like that and insisting it's worth it. "Yeah, but that's not how I want to play the character," would be my response. If he's a good DM, can't he guide the story without making decisions for your characters? See if he'll let you pawn it off somehow, and sell it to him as a potential adventure hook. What if you sold it, and it ended up in the hands of some other spellcaster who wasn't as heroically inclined as your character? Now the story has a major villain (or a leutenant for the existing one, if your campaign already has what the DM considers to be enough major villains for one story,) and your character or his companions might feel some responsibility for dealing with him, since he only came into power because you guys discarded a powerful item. Having the new owner use the dagger to kill innocent people could really drive some weighty storytelling, as your party starts to feel partially responsible for those deaths, and compelled to prevent more of them. Tell him if he's really dead set on your character having the item, he'll end up with it either way in the end, but he can get a few really good game sessions out of letting you sell it off, and then turning it into a threat you have to deal with. The item will also have a bloody history in the actual campaign by the time you're saddled with it, which will increase its weight on the whole party!
#15 darksavior Jul 16, 2008 9:01:28	Note: This concerns a 3.5E item, but the specific item doesn't matter. It could just as easily be something from 4th edition or 1st edition. My DM recently got Weapons of Legacy and distributed my wizard a magical dagger. This dagger will apparently permanently penalize me three caster levels to use and I -shockingly- want nothing to do with it. I feel bad about simply selling the item off, though, since my DM obviously wants to build at least a side quest around this dagger. I told him OOC that I really didn't want the magic weapon if it would gimp my character, but he insists it is worth it. How do you handle it when a DM gives your character an item he thinks is important but you (and your character! What wizard is going to hobble his spellcasting abilities for a puny melee weapon?) think is garbage? Generally snagging player's characters and their progression paths away from the player is a form of railroading, even if well intended. If he insists on going this route with you, then he should go over everything with you, not let it be a big surprise about how your character will be developing from here on out. If after he has gone over it with you and you can make an informed pros vs cons choice on what all it entails, then he should still respect your choices on how your character progresses. He is stepping on your toes otherwise, since your character is your main involvement in the game, and the ROLE you have in it. My 2 cents.
#16 kidoh Jul 16, 2008 13:11:42	omg PERMANENTLY? like as in you can only get your lvls back with a wish/miracle spell? or only when you use it?
#17 paravel Jul 17, 2008 13:16:37	Did your GM tell you what the dagger will do for you? It sounds so far like he didn't. In which case, can you convince him to?
#18 m4kitsu Jul 17, 2008 15:15:37	Bury it, shatter it, melt it down and have it made into limited-edition commemorative coins. Leave it in a dead body on the side of a road for looters to find. Convince the Orc chieftain to let you go free if you give him your "lucky" dagger. Grab the rogue trying to steal from you and tell him that his choices are a) take the dagger and begone, or b) burn in the fires of a thousand suns. Use it to pin a threatening note to somebody's door -then leave town. I've had two DMs try to inflict legacy items on me so far. One tried twice -he stopped after my Artificer, perfectly aware of the item's history, used retain essence on it "to see that it never plagues this world again and that it's power may be used for a better purpose." WoL was a rushed, poorly-planned book that should have never made it to the shelves. Stay far from it, and your gaming will be better for it.
#19 Zherog Jul 17, 2008 16:18:18	Weapons of Legacy, as a book, is a fantastic concept with really terrible mechanics. In almost every case* the costs the item inflicts aren't worth the benefits. I'm totally down with using a feat to unlock the powers, and having the PC do a little ritual is nice and a really cool chance for a DM to throw some flavor. But the actual costs the PC pays level by level are terribly ill-conceived. * I say "almost" just to cover my butt; I can't think of one off the top of my head, but just in case there's one... Anyway, as to your problem... folks have it right. You need to talk to your DM out of game about it. You need to express to him - clearly - that you aren't interested in the item, at least based upon the information you have right now. The DM can't actually make you use the item. If he insists the item is cool but won't give you info, then sell it. Or give it away. Or toss it in the woods. Or leave it in your room at the inn when you move on. Whatever. CCS has a nice way to blend the in-character and out-of-character. Lock it away someplace safe and research the item "in your spare time." That buys you some time where you don't have to use it. Once you discern what the item does, you can have your character decide the item isn't the right tool for him, and give it to an arcane society or the church of the magic god in your setting or whatever.
#20 GreyMorgan Jul 20, 2008 14:07:45	I would find other uses besides dagger for it. Perhaps a cooking knife? In one game I played in we started at level 5 and the DM had us find a magic spear. Now obviously he felt the spear was very important but not one character wanted to use it. We did find a command word for it that made the spear head burst into flame. So we used it to start our fires and as a torch at night and in dungeons. But never as a spear.
#21 GMforPowergamers Jul 21, 2008 0:22:34	can I give the devils advacte side here... As a DM every campagin I make up cool items, most are a little more powerful then standard items, some are a little weaker. I always make up plot hooks and histories for the items. Way back in highschool (Years and editions ago) every such item was grabed up, studdied and used by the PCs. Over the years there have been some flops that have been forgotten about, but hey it happens. Now in my last 3.5 game I decided to go all out (to send 3.5 off with a bang). I took 27 index cards and made uniqe items with histories and powers. Each one was a plot hook, a relic/artafact (in game not out of game), and ran the spectrom from weird to OMG powerful. Over the cource of 7 games...3 dungeons, a priate chase siquance...and lots of fights (in and out of game) all 27 were introduced... 1 was used the rest sold or given away...none of them researched at all. The one that was used was a charged item that is now out of charges and was thrown in a swamp... When I asked why I was told "Well it didn't fit our characters" about every last item. One PC is a shadow caster (ToM) and he trunered down the shadow cloak I made... Heck right before a dungeon filled with Dragonwrought kobolds, and spawns of tiamat they found a Bastard swod, and a sheild both Dragon bane with special abilites...they sold them... As a DM I think you should give the guy a chance...resarch the dagger find out what he wants to do with it...
#22 Mad_Jack Jul 21, 2008 3:20:25	The logical and fair thing to do would be to sit down out of game with the DM, and say, "Hey, with all due respect I really don't like losing three caster levels, just on your assurance that it'll be "cool". I feel like you're unnecessarily controlling my character for me. I'd like you to tell me exactly what this dagger does, and give me some idea of why you're giving it to me, so that I can decide if I want to play along, and work with you on this to make the storyline/campaign better." Let him know that, if your character feels unnecessarily saddled by his plot choices, the character may well end up selling or destroying the thing as he doesn't feel that owning it is worth the consequences. This is one of those situations, like many here on the boards, which will only be solved by honest discussion between the persons involved.
#23 vortex2099 Jul 21, 2008 13:41:16	I have played a few games with WoL type weapons, but the players and the DM got together and home-brewed them so they fit each players character concept. To do otherwise is railroading. That DM is putting his grubby fingers on your side of the story spectrum. But the best advice has already been given. Talk with your DM ooc and tell him you would like to know the positives and negatives of carrying this weapon. Tell him that forcing -3 CLs on a primary caster is not too kosher. However, on the other end of the stick, It could turn into a really great plot hook. Don't get me wrong, I really do not like it when DMs meddle with your build w/o asking, but it seems little different then you accidentally picking up a cursed item. Perhaps run it as though you did. I mean, what would your wizard do if he picked up an item and felt it drain his power? I know what my wizard would do. 1. Drop said Item. (ow that sucked!) 2. Realize that there is potent magic at work in this item and it must be studied. 3. Find a way to study it with-out direct contact. (this item seems very dangerous) 4. If he could not manage to either study at a distance he would then attempt to destroy the item. 5. If all of the above refused to work, seek help from a higher power. (powerful wizard or cleric). so say along the way you find out that the item is really awesome and you wanna run with it more power to you, (you're happy, the DM is happy). If you discover the loss is not worth the gain, or feel the item is not in line with your concept, tell the DM ooc nicely that you appreciate his attention and work on the item but that you do not feel it is in line with your concept and work out a scenario where you ditch the item in game. Story doesn't suffer, no harm no foul...
#24 shinkirou Jul 21, 2008 14:40:30	Ah, sounds like the Planeshifter's Knife. I can see how that'd be very useful in a story. I'd say to just keep it locked up somewhere until you find a use for it. That'd be my advice for any magical item that a GM gives you that you dont find useful and are advised ti keep.
#25 Furion_Thamior Jul 21, 2008 16:10:14	First, the caster level penalty from legacy items doesn't affect your spells per day or maximum level of spells you know - it seems to me like you think it does, but it doesn't. If you were 9th level, you'd still be able to cast 5th level spells. However, your caster level for those spells would be 6. So, your fireball would deal 6d6 damage. Remember, however, this is a legacy item. The penalty is gradual, and not -3 up front. In fact, you might not have even hit the penalty yet. However, you could take the Practiced Spellcaster feat to effectively negate the penalty.
#26 nephlite Jul 21, 2008 21:38:06	First, the caster level penalty from legacy items doesn't affect your spells per day or maximum level of spells you know - it seems to me like you think it does, but it doesn't. If you were 9th level, you'd still be able to cast 5th level spells. However, your caster level for those spells would be 6. So, your fireball would deal 6d6 damage. Remember, however, this is a legacy item. The penalty is gradual, and not -3 up front. In fact, you might not have even hit the penalty yet. However, you could take the Practiced Spellcaster feat to effectively negate the penalty. Doesn't the PHB say you can't cast a spell with a caster level lower than the minimum to cast it. Thus 9-3=6, so you can't cast 4th level spells (caster 7).
#27 kaldair Jul 22, 2008 13:16:30	Doesn't the PHB say you can't cast a spell with a caster level lower than the minimum to cast it. Thus 9-3=6, so you can't cast 4th level spells (caster 7). I don't have the books in front of me so can't check, but I do recall a fair number of monsters that cast spells at caster levels lower than what a PC could normally cast them at. Also, that rule would kill Wild Mages. Edit: You're probably thinking of the rule that wands, potions, staves, and the like cannot be crafted at a lower caster level than the minimum required to cast the spell... Thus can't cost less to craft than normal.
#28 Mad_Jack Jul 23, 2008 1:17:19	It doesn't actually say so in the book, but I've always taken it to mean that the penalty to your caster level only applies to things that check your caster level in order to determine effects, i.e., caster level checks, damage dice, save DC's and so on... This would seem to be supported by the fact that there are other tables that penalize by giving lost spell slots. As far as the caster level penalty, it's a gradual effect - when you first unlock the legacy (least legacy abilities, lvls 5-10) you take a -1 penalty, then again when you unlock the next level (lesser legacy, lvls 11-16), and a third time when you unlock the greater legacy abilities (lvls 17-20)... So that -3 penalty is accumulated over the course of your whole career. If you never unlocked any of it's abilities, you'll never take a penalty. If you unlock the legacy, it'd be a -1 and would never increase unless you went through the necessary steps to complete the next two rituals. And so on.
#29 Valdark Jul 23, 2008 3:04:16	Note: This concerns a 3.5E item, but the specific item doesn't matter. It could just as easily be something from 4th edition or 1st edition. My DM recently got Weapons of Legacy and distributed my wizard a magical dagger. This dagger will apparently permanently penalize me three caster levels to use and I -shockingly- want nothing to do with it. I feel bad about simply selling the item off, though, since my DM obviously wants to build at least a side quest around this dagger. I told him OOC that I really didn't want the magic weapon if it would gimp my character, but he insists it is worth it. How do you handle it when a DM gives your character an item he thinks is important but you (and your character! What wizard is going to hobble his spellcasting abilities for a puny melee weapon?) think is garbage? Forget that... throw the thing down a dark well and let your DM deal with how to handle that. Sure you'll probably end up fighting some crazed monster who's ****** at you for hitting it in the head with an uber dagger but hey that's part of the fun.