Then there is the fun beach sport of driving metal rods into the beach sand during an electrical storm with the plan of melting sand into glass trees.
Those three should teach your 'scientist' that electricity uses metal to travel through "to ground".
want to advance my technology, so I hired some mages to discover non-magical electricity (such as coal power plants) a-la Benjamin Franklin/Thomas Edison.
You say you're asking your mages to discover non-magical electricity, but your talking about coal power plants. Coal Power Plants are not electricity. Then produce usable electric current, but they are no more electricity than a rock is. Your poor mages are probably tyring to squeeze coal to get electric juice or something. You might want to clarify your query.
Actually, very likely, your mages are already aware of non-magical electricity since it not only occurs in nature (lightning), but is probably produce often or semi-often in magical experiments. They might not know of an efficient way to produce it without magic or are fully aware of all of its physical properties, but that's not the same thing as not knowing it.
I mean, it's been weeks
Here's your second problem. Its only been weeks. Barring happy accidents, Eureka moments, or alien tech to reverse-engineer, technological advances can take months, years, or even generations to develop.
and only one has figured out that magical lightning brings simpler mechanical objects to life.
And a third. That they think lightning "brings mechanical objects to life" illustrates that your mages have yet to grasp the concept that electricity can be used to do work, but does not infuse "life" into an object. Someone on the chain of command is either using inexact terminology, or is taking their electrical research towards a divine/necromantic dead-end (maybe...).
I'm not sure the particulars of your campaign, but it sounds that your character must has some knowledge of electrical power that's currently not known to mages to be able to request non-magical, electric power sources. If that's the case, why not share that information and advance technology a few decades.
Or baring that, why not just have mages advance currently existing technologies and develop magic-based sources of energy, which would probably be faster, cheaper, and more efficient, and more versitile than coal-based techs anyway. Not that it will ultimately matter in the end, what with Clarke's Third Law n' all.
I'm not familiar with the setting, but this right here is probably your first problem.
You say you're asking your mages to discover non-magical electricity, but your talking about coal power plants. Coal Power Plants are not electricity. Then produce usable electric current, but they are no more electricity than a rock is. Your poor mages are probably tyring to squeeze coal to get electric juice or something. You might want to clarify your query.
They're not. At least, my DM hasn't said they were. And, yeah, i'm probably leading them into the wrong direction.
Actually, very likely, your mages are already aware of non-magical electricity since it not only occurs in nature (lightning), but is probably produce often or semi-often in magical experiments. They might not know of an efficient way to produce it without magic or are fully aware of all of its physical properties, but that's not the same thing as not knowing it.
Here's your second problem. Its only been weeks. Barring happy accidents, Eureka moments, or alien tech to reverse-engineer, technological advances can take months, years, or even generations to develop.
Guess i've been inpatient.
And a third. That they think lightning "brings mechanical objects to life" illustrates that your mages have yet to grasp the concept that electricity can be used to do work, but does not infuse "life" into an object. Someone on the chain of command is either using inexact terminology, or is taking their electrical research towards a divine/necromantic dead-end (maybe...).
I'll look into that.
I'm not sure the particulars of your campaign, but it sounds that your character must has some knowledge of electrical power that's currently not known to mages to be able to request non-magical, electric power sources. If that's the case, why not share that information and advance technology a few decades.
I tried, but they didn't understand. Maybe if I explain it in simpler terms...
Or baring that, why not just have mages advance currently existing technologies and develop magic-based sources of energy, which would probably be faster, cheaper, and more efficient, and more versitile than coal-based techs anyway. Not that it will ultimately matter in the end, what with Clarke's Third Law n' all.
Unless your wizards are out conducting 'field experiments' like sticking a metal rod in the beach sand, they are unlikely to discover that lighting down a metal rod into beach sand melts sand. Such an Industrial scale Smelter would Only be usable during electrical storms and only on sand, then maybe after a few decades of experiments - lesser metals.
I've considered the intuitive process by which such things as electrical motors might be 'discovered' by 'field observation of natural events' and I'm still looking.
Probably the second most important phrase would be "I wonder what would happen if I did THIS?"
Most discoveries are accidents, not flashes of divinely inspired brilliance. You just have to keep hammering away at something until it clicks, or you just get lucky. You can work to stack the odds in your favor, of course, via your methodology and tools, but there's still a good portion of chance involved in any sort of scientific research.
I heard somewhere that "The most important phrase in the history of scientific discovery has not been 'Eureka!' but rather 'That's funny...'"
Probably the second most important phrase would be "I wonder what would happen if I did THIS?"
Most discoveries are accidents, not flashes of divinely inspired brilliance. You just have to keep hammering away at something until it clicks, or you just get lucky. You can work to stack the odds in your favor, of course, via your methodology and tools, but there's still a good portion of chance involved in any sort of scientific research.
Serendipity: A Happy Accident
Electricity was discovered and understood over centries of work by many different scientists from William Gilbert in the 1600s and onwards, each of who observed and studied each individual aspect. Names for various parts of electricity are from these scientists (Alexandro Volta (Volts) in 1800, André-Marie Ampère (Amps) in 1820, Georg Ohm (Ohms) 1827) actual practical inventions that ran on electricity were only discovered after other technological discoveries were made.
For example, making a lightbulb requires being able to create a vacuum sealed bulb. Batteries need to be invented in order to stor electricity, etc etc. More then electricity is required to create the technology that is run by it as a power source. and the invention of an effective lightbulb took over a hundred years in of itself of study on a global scale. (no Edison didn't invent the lightbulb, he only managed to invent a better filiment)
Very few things were "just invented" instead most inventions are the result of previous discoveries, each leading to the other and each requiring the supportive technology and science. For example, gunpowder was around for thousands of years before someone figured out it could be used to hurl a rock (that is a gun) It then took nearly another thousand years to create an effective gun.
...For example, making a lightbulb requires being able to create a vacuum sealed bulb...
Ha! ha! ha! ha! thats a good one.
Laser theory (you remember Lasers) suggests that if you get a crystal that generates light when subjected a massive pulse of light in close proximity, it releases that transfered energy over time as a pulse...Thus a Light bulb can be a Crystal next to a spark gap through which a Lighting bolt jumps to ground.
So if you want to somehow go from no knowledge of the existence of the phenomenon known as electricity to coal power plants and power armour (something even we haven't invented yet), I hope you're all elves because its going to be a few centuries in the making.
This thread has to be the weirdest thing I've read on any forum in some time. In addition, unless your character was some sort of dimensional traveller, I would just tell you to p*ss off with a ridiculous request like this one if I was the DM.
He wants non-magical electricity. Perfectly reasonable request - get a bunch Magic-Users (people most likely to know about controlling things like that) to find out how to harness lightning/electricity in a way that doesn't require years of magical training. Expensive as hell, and I don't think most Magic-Users would so cavalierly give away something so likely to reduce their prestige, but perfectly reasonable.
Ha! ha! ha! ha! thats a good one.
Laser theory (you remember Lasers) suggests that if you get a crystal that generates light when subjected a massive pulse of light in close proximity, it releases that transfered energy over time as a pulse...Thus a Light bulb can be a Crystal next to a spark gap through which a Lighting bolt jumps to ground.
Well as it took nearly 200 years between the invention of the lightbulb to the invention of the laser, this only makes for a much larger rift.
But your suggestion wouldn't make a lightbulb, but rather a laser beam. And a very energy inifficeint laser at that.
Also again comes my point that alot of discoveries involving electricity and other technologies revolve around preexisting science and technology. The crystals you refer to are made of very specific elements and are mostly man-made. This also requires that they know what electricity is.
Electricity can be used to charge particles in an object, this causes electrons to be in the furthest orbit (keeping this explanation simple and not accurate) around those particles, eventually these electrons loose their high orbit and fall to a lower orbit, this occurs when the particle looses it's charge, and when the electron shifts it's orbit like this a photon is released.
A photon is what makes light, this photon then has a high probability of coliding with a different atom and thus triggering another electron to drop it's orbit and release yet another photon and so on in a chain effect. The term Laser actually is an acronym for Light Amplification by Simulated Emmision Radiation, and making one would require extensive knowledge of modern day particle physics. Like what is light? Why is light released due to friction, heat etc? What are atoms made of?
.
The invention of something as simple as a lightbulb required knowledge in many other areas, including metalurgy for the filiments, the creation of vacuume tubes etc. And that isn't even considering finding a reliable powersource, that means you need to be able to generate a constant flow of electricity and have batteries to store that electric power.
That in turn requires knowledge of chemistry and metalurgy to make the battery, it requires understanding something of the physics of particles (knowing what electricity actually is) the relation of electricity to magnetism, an understanding of conductivity and resistance. How electricity flows etc.
That is, they didn't just say "oh electricity, Maybe I can make light out of it since lightning is pretty bright" So was gunpowder, but noone tried to use repeating gun as a reading lamp.
Knowledge from xperiments that showed that the flow of electricity could be resisted and that in turn produced heat and light is what came to the conclusion that it's use as a lightsource was possible, then came the part of finding a fine enough filiment that had enough resistance to light up without too large an electric flow and without buring out (meaning a very thin line)
It took a global effort of scientists with extensive knowledge of electricity, reistance and conductivity, vacuums etc nearly a centry of work to make an effective lightbulb.
With no knowledge of even kenetic physics, atoms and particles, these mages are simply shooting in the dark, Men has known of electricity sine the dawn of time, from lightning, to static electricity to animals like the electric eel. Electricity has been used for medical use from our earliest history, and yet it's taken us thousands of years to gain the scientific knowledge that has allowed us to actually understand and use elexctricity. That knowledge is based upon alot of previous scientific knowledge that came before we figured out electricity.
I suggest watching the show Connections by James Burke who goes through great lengths to explain how the modern world came to be through thousands of years of different discoveries. For example starting with peasants revolting in Italy to Napolena feeding his armies to the space shuttle, and how the needed technology and science was developed along the way that allowed for the modern space shuttle to be made.
Understanding Electricity requires understanding the basic sciences of physics and chemistry that proceeded it's discovery, and without that your Mages are not going far.
The behavior of electricity, how it takes the shortest route and is attracted to metal (or rather flows along it due to lower resistance) And how other items resist electricity, and it's effects on biological creatures. This could lead to many useful discoveries. Remember that any electric device requires a batery and a generator to create a source of electricity (to recharge the battery or directly power the device) so selling electrical devices is moot point if the buyer can't recharge them. Arcane electrical devices are moot point in a world where magic is so effective. for example, a dim lightbulb with an arcaic power source compared to a magical light spell, so looking for mundane ways that the study of electricity could gain a benifit to magical devices is best.
-The Lightning rod. Buildings and ships are often hit with lightning, a rod and wire is all that is needed to protect buildings from this natural lightning. This is a simple observation and invention that can be easily produced and marketed, though any blacksmith can make a lightning rod.
-The effect of electricity on the nercous system can lead to it's medicle application. In ancient times this was observed by people accidentally stepping on electric eels. This measn making magical devices that on activation released a low level lightning burst (think of Shocking Grasp toned down to a joy buzzer) has a serious medical application.
-Following the effect of electricity on the nervous system, in particular the heart, it can effect the heart rate and can give the target a heart attack. However should someone's heart stop it can also be used to restart the same heart. A magcial defibulator could be made that is also of medical benifit.
-The resistance of some materials and ability to ground objects from lightning is of great application because it gives a mundane way of creating armors and fortifications that can be immune to such attacks. A suit of armor that is coated in electric resistance, fireproof and grounded materials and insulated from the cold could give a resistance to lightning, Fire and Cold based attacks without the use of magic, so it is a cheap and easily mass manufactured armour. Similair protection can be given fortifications, grounding them from lightning based attacks to the castle walls and it's armaments. Even using the attacks against their enemies by redirecting the energy
Well as it took nearly 200 years between the invention of the lightbulb to the invention of the laser, this only makes for a much larger rift.
But your suggestion wouldn't make a lightbulb, but rather a laser beam. And a very energy inifficeint laser at that.
On the contrary: it offers you the opportunity to discover those nifty rocks that retain energy to which they are exposed and expend the energy as light over a prolonged period...For us it isnt particularly likely that there will be magic so while we do have crystaline substances that produce light when exposed to the light put out by a 1 gigawatt lightning strike...why not make a decision as DM.
Even a Crystal sitting in a spark gap functions as a Capacitor - storing the induced energy and generating light at a resonate frequency as released energy.
Electricity was discovered and understood over centries of work by many different scientists from William Gilbert in the 1600s and onwards, each of who observed and studied each individual aspect. Names for various parts of electricity are from these scientists (Alexandro Volta (Volts) in 1800, André-Marie Ampère (Amps) in 1820, Georg Ohm (Ohms) 1827) actual practical inventions that ran on electricity were only discovered after other technological discoveries were made.
I have just last week finished my second year of school studying electricity. Ohm's law (E=IR) was something we spent a whole quarter of 1st quarter just leading up to. Second year was mostly code requirements. What I'm saying is that, standing on the shoulders of giant (so to say), I'm headed towards my third year of study and have little idea how a battery works, aside from vague impressions based on previous lessons.
How can your hirelings do better without being taught by someone who already knows?
A better bet is to stick to purely magical means. I'll assume for now that you're hiring mages to conduct this study, and if you allow them to stick to their specialty you'll go much farther much more quickly.
I have just last week finished my second year of school studying electricity. Ohm's law (E=IR) was something we spent a whole quarter of 1st quarter just leading up to. Second year was mostly code requirements. What I'm saying is that, standing on the shoulders of giant (so to say), I'm headed towards my third year of study and have little idea how a battery works, aside from vague impressions based on previous lessons.
How can your hirelings do better without being taught by someone who already knows?
A better bet is to stick to purely magical means. I'll assume for now that you're hiring mages to conduct this study, and if you allow them to stick to their specialty you'll go much farther much more quickly.
Dude: is that all they have taught you? They taught us How they are made by Month 1...Overhead display example 1: The Bagdad Battery; is a [glass jar] with a copper foil cylinder around the cork and a Zinc Nail through the centre of the cork. THe container is almost filled with acid (like Vinegar). Originally it is used for electroplating.
Its discovery begins with the placing of two distinct metal objects in vinegar in a ceramic jar - creating an electric potential.
THen they went into an annoying conversation on holes vs electrons as the means of 'energy transfer'.
THE THIEVES GUILD
The Guild Mage, Artisan, and Thief are more likely to know about the battery and its use in electroplating than the mainstream wizard. Its probably a Guild secret.
Its a four year school. Regardless of the order in which the lessons are taught I will learn everything.
By the way, sparky, play with 'em stripped and dead. ;)
I haven't learned the theory of building such batteries, but I can calculate wattage across a circuit with both series and parallel regions when a grounded conductors are opened and am familiar with the first 6 chapters of the NEC 2008, to say very little.
Its a four year school. Regardless of the order in which the lessons are taught I will learn everything.
By the way, sparky, play with 'em stripped and dead. ;)
Sparky?...Sparky!!!! Try Electronics Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Computer Programming, Physics, and enough material science to be a highend terrorist... Smurf!
Have they told you about drypile batteries and the potential of different metals?
Well I commend you on your achievements. Now, get a circuit from the service to your new hot tub. Dare ya. Don't kill anybody while you're at it.
Hiring mages to make a force that they currently have complete control over to make available for all to use?
Has noone else noticed the conflict of interest here?
Hiring mages to make a force that they currently have complete control over to make available for all to use?
I did, in a roundabout fashion:
Expensive as hell, and I don't think most Magic-Users would so cavalierly give away something so likely to reduce their prestige, but perfectly reasonable.
I could have been a terrorist with 6 months in the field and no schooling!
Well I commend you on your achievements. Now, get a circuit from the service to your new hot tub. Dare ya. Don't kill anybody while you're at it.
Woodfired hottub and Stove...electricity is looking to cost $1 a KWH in the near future. It will be more cost efficient to Build my own steam turbine and charge a wall of batteries.
Sounds like you're ready for the apocalypse too. Everyone meet up with the Dingo after the bomb drops.
Depends on where the bomb drops...I live just inside the 'projected' range for North Korean ICBMs.
This thread has to be the weirdest thing I've read on any forum in some time. In addition, unless your character was some sort of dimensional traveller, I would just tell you to p*ss off with a ridiculous request like this one if I was the DM.
I don't know anything about the setting, but I react as you.
Maybe in this specific setting something as strange as "non magical electricity" exists. But without any more knowledge of the setting, I would say we have a player trying to "force" on the setting knowledges that have nothing to do with it. things work differently in magical worlds than in "scientific" ones...
Even if the setting allows the existence of science, then it is strange to be so impatient with scientific discoveries.
Maybe in this specific setting something as strange as "non magical electricity" exists.
It does - it's called weather. Go outside during a thunderstorm some time, and look at the light flashing across the sky, because that's "non magical electricity."
Even if the setting allows the existence of science
Assuming people are using tools, clothing, metal artifacts, living in buildings, etc, then yes, science exists. You are confusing high technology with science, and there's no reason for the two to fail to co-exist anyway. Modern fantasy does it all the time.
It does - it's called weather. Go outside during a thunderstorm some time, and look at the light flashing across the sky, because that's "non magical electricity."There are Storm Sorcerers, you know...
In "our world" storms may be "non magical". In a magic world - well, they may be pure magic.Assuming people are using tools, clothing, metal artifacts, living in buildings, etc, then yes, science exists. You are confusing high technology with science, and there's no reason for the two to fail to co-exist anyway. Modern fantasy does it all the time.
I'm sorry, but I can't agree. The existence of "science" in a setting - or to put it otherwise, the existence of a "non magical" explanation to any phenomenon, in a "magical" setting, is not a given.
If the setting allows for a non magical explanation, and the existence of scientific principles as our own, well there is no problem.
There are Storm Sorcerers, you know...
In "our world" storms may be "non magical". In a magic world - well, they may be pure magic.
I didn't, actually - what are they?
And why should weather be a magical phenomenon? Weather can be caused by magic, but an explicitly magical phenomenon outside of the elemental planes is stupid.
I'm sorry, but I can't agree. The existence of "science" in a setting - or to put it otherwise, the existence of a "non magical" explanation to any phenomenon, in a "magical" setting, is not a given.
So steel is magical? Bronze? Tanned leather, vis-a-vis rawhide, is magical?
If the setting allows for a non magical explanation, and the existence of scientific principles as our own, well there is no problem.
WHY WOULDN'T IT? Scientific principles are methods of discovery. The Scientific Method is just a formula for testing a hypothesis, applicable to anything you're unsure of.
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.
7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.
Definition of "science." Going to Wikipedia opens up a whole 'nother avenue of approach:
Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") refers in its broadest sense to any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science often refers to a technical art or highly skilled practice.[1]
In its more restricted and more usual sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on scientific method, and to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.
...
Scientific fields are commonly classified along two major lines: natural sciences, which study natural phenomena (including biological life), and social sciences, which study human behavior and societies.
Assassins are scientists! So are Druids, Rangers, and anyone with any herbal knowledge what-so-freakin'-ever!
MATH is a science - do people in your worlds not use money? Are merchants non-existant? Do things just pop into existence when they're needed?
It does - it's called weather. Go outside during a thunderstorm some time, and look at the light flashing across the sky, because that's "non magical electricity."
There are Storm Sorcerers, you know...
In "our world" storms may be "non magical". In a magic world - well, they may be pure magic.
I'm sorry, but I can't agree. The existence of "science" in a setting - or to put it otherwise, the existence of a "non magical" explanation to any phenomenon, in a "magical" setting, is not a given.
If the setting allows for a non magical explanation, and the existence of scientific principles as our own, well there is no problem.
Doubly so if you have gods of thunder but the OP is specific about the setting as an Earth after Apocolypse. Lightning is lightning even though 'wizards' can manipulate energies to create.
I didn't, actually - what are they?
And why should weather be a magical phenomenon? Weather can be caused by magic, but an explicitly magical phenomenon outside of the elemental planes is stupid.
So steel is magical? Bronze? Tanned leather, vis-a-vis rawhide, is magical?
Sure, why not? Glorantha is just one example of a fantasy world where all these things are magical, because the world operates according to mythological/magical principles rather than scientific ones. Most people in the past did not have a particularly scientific view of the way the world operated, viewing most things as happening because of the actions of gods or spirits. It's hardly a stretch that a fantasy world might operate in the same way.
And even if science and electricity do work just as in our world, asking someone to "discover electricity" for you is still a pretty stupid request.
WHY WOULDN'T IT? Scientific principles are methods of discovery. The Scientific Method is just a formula for testing a hypothesis, applicable to anything you're unsure of.
The scientific method is a method.
The scientific discoveries, the "laws" of physic, chemistry, biology the scientific method allowed to formulate are something else.
In a fantasy world, the use of the scientific method can lead to the formulations of completely different laws and discoveries.
That is what wizards do - using method and experimentation to discover the laws of their universe - magic.
Yes, in a fantasy world, storms can be directly related to the elemental chaos. Or the will of a god.
In Glorantha, Bronze was not an alloy, but the bones of dead gods. Cristals were their blood.
Some settings are enterely based on this idea that, using the same methods, you could find very different answers, and formulate "scientific" laws completely different from what science established in "our" real world.
Of course it depends on the setting, and the will of the GM.
Edit: another exemple is the Space 1889 RPG. It is set in an alternative XIX° century earth. But the laws of physic are different. Space is not empty, but filled with a "gaz" know as aether. The british empire colonised mars using ballons floating in it, and know use martian wood to build wooden space ships... Scientist characters can build death rays and other "fantasy tech"...
To Trar:
I am sorry, I derailed your thread and brought no suggestions for your problem.
I wonder what you really want: to develop "technology", or to develop specific "inventions", new items? It seems you want to have some of the "fallout 3" equipment. Is it important for them to be only technological? If you have mages, and the potential to unlock non magical knowledge, you could use both.
What you want are items and machineries that can function without having a mage by their side, I think. I would reformulate my demands in this direction. In the process of trying to build devices working by themselves, through magic, your researchers could discover new ways to store/produce the power of lightning.
Rather than asking them to discover a new field of knowledge, ask for the objects you want - there is a chance that in the development process they discover the basis of the science you are looking for.