Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 som-pee-ta-lay Sep 22, 2009 8:41:18	Taken as a whole, how valuable is Darkvision? Now of course the immediate response is, "it depends", but that answer is boring, I'd rather go with more general impressions and also splitting hair impressions. Having played D&D for around 30 years I've seen Darkvision be absolutely crucial at times.  Without someone being able to see in absolute darkness the party would be screwed.  The character that could see was able to to keep fighting effectively, or lead the rest of the groping characters out of the dungeon, or finding the character that was bleeding out and bind their wounds, etc. Still, the overall impression I've got is that it's really important that someone in the party have it as a backup, but that in general the darkvision doesn't get used exclusively that often.  Parties normally have someone who needs a light source and so when you go down in the dungeon you carry your torches, ever burning torches, or light spells aplenty to make sure that there is some illumination. In these instances the darkvision tends to only get used in that those with darkvision get a spot check before imitative as they have a chance to see the monster farther down the corridor than the rest of the party.  Most of the time it is the more elegant low-light vision in that you don't have to calculate out squares, shadowiness, etc. Of course when a character is away from the party, such as a rouge taking point, then darkvision becomes very useful, but it is an isolated instance in which the character is well built for their particular role. My overall impression is that unless the DM is blood thirsty, or just wants to give a twist to an encounter by creating situations where the lights go out, that Darkvision doesn't get used too often, that it's application on the meta-level of play is a bit diminished by the fact that the party generally needs light to function on a regular basis. Like I said, there are a million instances in which darkvision was crucial for the party as a whole, but if you would somehow be able to collect the data of all the games of D&D ever played, I'd be surprised to hear it being used in a crucial way nearly as often as it just sitting in the party's back pocket waiting to be used either as a utility or emergency safety tool. How do others feel?
#2 GalaGalaxia Sep 22, 2009 9:05:23	I agree that darkvision is generally not crucial, except for reducing the chance of being seen, if/when that is important. Sneaking through a dark forest? Approaching an enemy stronghold at night? Roaming around a dungeon? In general, there is a huge difference between the entire party having darkvision, one or more players, and no one. If the entire party has darkvision, it can be quite the advantage. If only one (or a few) of the PCs have darkvision, it is not that advantageous. On the other hand, having at least that one character with darkvision in the party gives the players, as a group, more options as far as approaching various story obstacles with stealth and under cover from darkness. Darkvision is more important for the PCs if they have it, but the enemy does not. So, again, it truly depends. An entire party with darkvision will reap some serious benefits. A party without any darkvision does not have to be crippled by it. A party with at least one member having darkvision does not necessarily experience a big benefit, but do at least have that option available.
#3 Panartias Sep 22, 2009 9:18:05	My thoughts go in the same direction. It is good to have this base covered by one or two characters in the group. And it is needed for some concepts: A rouge /assassin didn't get his sneak attack under bad light conditions in 3.x without low light or darkvision. (At least that was the conclusion of some thread on the boards here: darkness gives concealment, concealment stops sneak attack) Personally I rated darkvision or low light vision and swimming almost as a must have for my ranger -characters. Could use it very seldom in game (perhaps 4 times in 20 levels) but half the time it saved the day.
#4 som-pee-ta-lay Sep 22, 2009 9:50:43	I can definitely see how if the whole party has Darkvision then it would be a real force multiplier for the party as a whole.  I remember in an AD&D campaign where the party as a group decided to save their gold so everyone could buy rings of invisibility.  That definitely changed the course of the campaign ;) It is interesting that in 4e none of the core races have darkvision, so in that respect it has become more valuable, requiring powers or magic items to be able to see in the dark.  With 3.5 two of the core races had darkvision, which makes it's value a bit murky in the overall scheme of things.
#5 xaviermcv Sep 22, 2009 9:51:30	I have missed darkvision more times than I can count.   I love playing rogues, and I like doing rougish things like scouting ahead and sneaking into an advantageous position before a combat. Unfortunately, that's rather hard to do if you have to carry a burning torch around.
#6 samyueru Sep 22, 2009 10:25:04	Really, "it depends", is going to be the only answer that makes any sense. It all depends on what you want your character to be able to do, what other abilities may need the use of darkvision to become better (or useful, as the case may be) and what settings your DM is going to take you through.
#7 oxybe Sep 22, 2009 10:36:44	as a player, darkvision is... wow. it's something you notice you're missing once you play a character who doesn't have it. my 3.5 character is a warlock. he's got darkvision, see invis & 30ft of see magical darkvision (he can see through the first 30ft of like a darkness spell). it's helped us countless times. the see invis is awesomely ridiculous, but would have been useless 70% of the time since i couldn't have seen them anyways. my 4th ed character is a warforged. he doesn't have the darkvision and i've seen myself missing it more often then i can count. as a GM darkvision on the players is a whole other kettle of fish to take into consideration. "the unknown" is a great storytelling concept i like to use... you want to mess with someone... scare them... close the lights. they might not be scared in the traditional sense but they will be on high alert. which means i have an easier time messing with their perception of reality. even if they have torches, seeing some clawed hand or tentacle reach into the light, grab your buddy and drag him into the darkness with some unearthly moaning as your friend cries for help. darkvision kinda negates that... until magical darkness is used. then it's panic city. if the guy who normally doesn't care about the dark starts panicking about the darkness, **** is going down.
#8 ChrisTheS Sep 22, 2009 11:02:06	I miss infravision (pretty much the only thing about 2e that I miss).  But then, I also thought that the best parts of the Predator movies were the Predator POV scenes.
#9 mb_webguy Sep 22, 2009 19:37:16	It also depends on the monsters the party encounters.  If your campaign involves excursions into the Underdark to fight a lot of drow or other enemies capable of creating magical darkness, having darkvision allows a character to negate one of the enemies biggest advantages.  If even one member of the party has darkvision, especially if it's your defender or striker, it will make a significant difference in these encounters. If, on the other hand, you play in a campaign in which the vast majority of encounters take place outside during the day, and your enemies have no ability to create magical darkness, darkvision means nothing at all.
#10 emperorgod Sep 23, 2009 0:32:16	I find players generally stock up on sunrods anyway, making Darkvision a nonfactor in over a year of steady play. Evidently, ymmv. ;)
#11 mb_webguy Sep 23, 2009 1:24:57	I find players generally stock up on sunrods anyway, making Darkvision a nonfactor in over a year of steady play. Evidently, ymmv. ;) Yes, but a sunrod isn't going to help in an area of magical darkness...  Try fighting some drow with a sunrod in your hand, and you'll find yourself holding a worthless stick in the dark.
#12 starwulf Sep 23, 2009 2:42:04	Darkvision is much less important in 4e than in previous editions because it is much easier to hit an enemy you can't see in this edition.  However, it is still handy when dealing with magical darkness.
#13 Vamroc Sep 23, 2009 2:56:23	In a strange way the value of darkvision is totally dependant on how the charactor is built Controllers & The Striker as a whole can make Darkvision a very powerful ability. But it doesn't do much for Leaders or Defenders except allow them to see the thing that keeps missing them.
#14 The_Silversword Sep 23, 2009 7:38:51	I would be willing to give up 2 healing surges and a 100 in gold to have Darvision.