Yeah, it's long
Hey Dan. As I headed home last night, I thought about a lot of things that I think need to be addressed in the D&D game we're playing. This is not a complaint about you, you've been DMing perfectly fine. What is irritating me is Caren. This is not me trying to "win you over to my side" (I know you probably won't think that, but I just wanted to make it clear)
Now, straight to the issues. She has been lessening my fun in the game overall.
1) For the last THREE sessions now, she has kept bringing up the mistake I made outside the dragons cave. I have already admitted that I made a mistake and apologized to Mike and Will for (indirectly) getting the characters killed. I have also apologized to the entire group several times. I would think that that's enough to let it lay to rest. I admitted that I made a "noob" mistake, and it won't happen again, yet I still hear about it. She only brings it up 1/session, but it's driving me nuts. She really needs to stop. Also, she tends to gloss over the fact that she DIRECTLY got us all killed by running off to fight Painlay, but I have never rubbed that in her face.
2) I've noticed that she (usually. About 75% of the time) ignores any of my input when we're doing something. I'm not saying that we all have to do EVERYTHING I say, I'd just like to be listened to once in a while. The others (Mike, Adam, and Will) at least listen to what I have to say, and then state their opinions on my idea. They don't always agree with me, but they at least bother to listen to my input. Caren only does if she has no idea what else she can do (like in last night's fight) I think that everyone in the group should bother to listen to everyone else's ideas. I don't know WHY she ignores me (it may be that I lack confidence, like you and Adam say, but the others at least bother to listen. I think it might be that she views me as a "noob" to D&D. I honestly don't know.)
3) You were certainly right about how Caren only cares about her enjoyment and her character, and that she is willing to sacrifice/let my character take the brunt of things. When I was searching that body, I had my character tell hers his intentions. (she wasn't listening to me at the time, and I just went with it because I didn't feel like arguing about it. I've noticed that sometimes Mike and Caren get into little spats over things like that, and I'm fairly sure that it applies to everyone, not just Mike) I don't mind that you had the guards pull me away, it's what I would have done if the situations between us was reversed. But she did not lift a finger to help me, and I had to sit off to the side for an hour while she was interrogating the prisoners. I'm mainly irritated that she didn't bother to help me. A lot of people were talking when I had my character tell her what his plans are, but still. It just bites.
4) She is a bit too.....how can I put this? I can't exactly find the right words for it. Overly meticulous? I have a few examples.
Last night, when she was questioning the prisoners. She instead of saying something generic such as "I ask him what his story is. Does it check out with the kid's?" She begins to ask every single detailed question (after she thinks of them) and you had to head her off before she wasted an hour of game time questioning all of them.
During the first fight with Painlay, she spent at least a half-hour trying to figure out if a dead kobold was considered an object, and if it could trigger the alarm spell. I remember how that drove you nuts, and it drove me insane as well. I tried to help out and hint to her "moving on" but all I received from her in return was a glare.
5) She doesn't always live up to the expectations that she holds for others.
Now, this is a minor complaint, but I figure if I'm going to all this effort, I may as well list everything. She occasionally start/particiapte in a tangent, but it's impossible to stop her until she's said what she wants to say. Like last night, she was talking to you about something, and Mike hinted to get back to the game about two to four times before she stoppes (which was when she was done saying what she had to say)
I don't think I'm that bad when I'm off-topic, (but I may be) and I know that Adam, Will, and Mike are not that bad.
I'm not trying to split the group apart, or tell you to get rid of her, but I was wondering if perhaps you could talk to her for me? I'm pretty irritated with her, and I don't think it would be best for me to talk to her at the moment, since I may say something that I will regret. She has just been sucking the fun out of the game for the last few sessions for me, and Adam has had a similar issue with her during Mike's campaign.
I honestly don't know how to handle this, and I was hoping that she would eventually stop, but it looks like she won't.
ALSO.
If you think that I'm the one that is out of line, please let me know. If anyone in the group has issues with me that they may have brought to your attention, I would like to hear them so I stop that behavior.
So anyways, give me a shout when you aren't busy.
Steven
Now, straight to the issues. She has been lessening my fun in the game overall.
1) For the last THREE sessions now, she has kept bringing up the mistake I made outside the dragons cave. I have already admitted that I made a mistake and apologized to Mike and Will for (indirectly) getting the characters killed. I have also apologized to the entire group several times. I would think that that's enough to let it lay to rest. I admitted that I made a "noob" mistake, and it won't happen again, yet I still hear about it. She only brings it up 1/session, but it's driving me nuts. She really needs to stop. Also, she tends to gloss over the fact that she DIRECTLY got us all killed by running off to fight Painlay, but I have never rubbed that in her face.
2) I've noticed that she (usually. About 75% of the time) ignores any of my input when we're doing something. I'm not saying that we all have to do EVERYTHING I say, I'd just like to be listened to once in a while. The others (Mike, Adam, and Will) at least listen to what I have to say, and then state their opinions on my idea. They don't always agree with me, but they at least bother to listen to my input. Caren only does if she has no idea what else she can do (like in last night's fight) I think that everyone in the group should bother to listen to everyone else's ideas. I don't know WHY she ignores me (it may be that I lack confidence, like you and Adam say, but the others at least bother to listen. I think it might be that she views me as a "noob" to D&D. I honestly don't know.)
3) You were certainly right about how Caren only cares about her enjoyment and her character, and that she is willing to sacrifice/let my character take the brunt of things. When I was searching that body, I had my character tell hers his intentions. (she wasn't listening to me at the time, and I just went with it because I didn't feel like arguing about it. I've noticed that sometimes Mike and Caren get into little spats over things like that, and I'm fairly sure that it applies to everyone, not just Mike) I don't mind that you had the guards pull me away, it's what I would have done if the situations between us was reversed. But she did not lift a finger to help me, and I had to sit off to the side for an hour while she was interrogating the prisoners. I'm mainly irritated that she didn't bother to help me. A lot of people were talking when I had my character tell her what his plans are, but still. It just bites.
4) She is a bit too.....how can I put this? I can't exactly find the right words for it. Overly meticulous? I have a few examples.
Last night, when she was questioning the prisoners. She instead of saying something generic such as "I ask him what his story is. Does it check out with the kid's?" She begins to ask every single detailed question (after she thinks of them) and you had to head her off before she wasted an hour of game time questioning all of them.
During the first fight with Painlay, she spent at least a half-hour trying to figure out if a dead kobold was considered an object, and if it could trigger the alarm spell. I remember how that drove you nuts, and it drove me insane as well. I tried to help out and hint to her "moving on" but all I received from her in return was a glare.
5) She doesn't always live up to the expectations that she holds for others.
Now, this is a minor complaint, but I figure if I'm going to all this effort, I may as well list everything. She occasionally start/particiapte in a tangent, but it's impossible to stop her until she's said what she wants to say. Like last night, she was talking to you about something, and Mike hinted to get back to the game about two to four times before she stoppes (which was when she was done saying what she had to say)
I don't think I'm that bad when I'm off-topic, (but I may be) and I know that Adam, Will, and Mike are not that bad.
I'm not trying to split the group apart, or tell you to get rid of her, but I was wondering if perhaps you could talk to her for me? I'm pretty irritated with her, and I don't think it would be best for me to talk to her at the moment, since I may say something that I will regret. She has just been sucking the fun out of the game for the last few sessions for me, and Adam has had a similar issue with her during Mike's campaign.
I honestly don't know how to handle this, and I was hoping that she would eventually stop, but it looks like she won't.
ALSO.
If you think that I'm the one that is out of line, please let me know. If anyone in the group has issues with me that they may have brought to your attention, I would like to hear them so I stop that behavior.
So anyways, give me a shout when you aren't busy.
Steven
But aside from that, I don't have much to add.
Dan's better with people than I am, so maybe he can take care of it, or he can nudge me in the right direction.
So the e-mail seemed fine? You don't think it will create any problems in the group?
I do know that I'd rather have someone talk to me directly about my behavior then try and go through a third party, as that's kind of... well, either cowardly or insulting is how I'd probably see it. Something along the lines of "What, you think I can't handle criticism? You have to go through the GM to try and pull rank on me? What kind of BS is this? If you have a problem with me, talk to me, don't go get someone else fighting your battles for you." I wouldn't say that, mind you, but I'd certainly think it.
But as I said, you know the people involved better then I could hope to, so I don't know if your approach would work better for your group. It's not something I would do, and it wouldn't make me happy to have a player do ilt, but my players tend to be adults and I generally expect them to act like it. What works for me and mine may not work for you and yours.
You and the whole group are friends outside of DND, you hang out often
You probably ought to suck it up and explain things to her. Maybe something as simple as "Hey, the whole picking on me thing is getting a little old, can we put it to rest?" That said, this isn't terribly out of line, but it is a little weird, and could be construed as "baneofelves isn't mature enough to handle his own problems".
I would have tried to say something to her first, and then if you were ignored multiple times go to the DM privatly, but I don't think you were totally out of line to do it this way.
You only see the group for DND sessions, maybe one or two other players outside it
What you did makes sense to me, you don't know her well and hopefully the DM knows her at least as well as you. He is in charge of organizing these strangers and making sure things flow smoothly. Hopefully he can problem solve for you. Perhapse he has had similar problems with this player in the past, and she is on some sort of "next time she does this to our new player she is gone" thing with the DM. Talking to her directly couldn't hurt though.
Not sure of the situation, two responses, pick the one that fits.
You only see the group for DND sessions, maybe one or two other players outside it
What you did makes sense to me, you don't know her well and hopefully the DM knows her at least as well as you. He is in charge of organizing these strangers and making sure things flow smoothly. Hopefully he can problem solve for you. Perhapse he has had similar problems with this player in the past, and she is on some sort of "next time she does this to our new player she is gone" thing with the DM. Talking to her directly couldn't hurt though.
This is the situation. We only hang out about 1/week on average. Sometimes we end up going for a month w/o gaming.
@ Nightson: Yeah, that's just one of those things that you have to experience. It can get pretty bad at times.
The mail clearly showes that you are frustrated and I don't think that it's to thin. A lot of small things that boiled together becomes really annoying. I wouldn't reccomend that you talk to this player yourself, you're clearly annoyed with her. And if she doesn't listen to you anyway chances are good that she doesn't respect you, and don't care about what you have to say. Let the DM do the talking. And make sure that he does the "this goes for all here at the table in general. The game seems to slow down often, you don't have to deep-rp every single aspect of the game.... etc".
In you're mail you write somewhere.. "you were righ, she just cares about her own character". Does this mean that your DM is already aware that this player is annoying or thinks so himself? Have the DM remind people that this is a cooperation game. And ofcourse, remember to have your character live by the same rules.
If possible, you should go and talk to the DM, or phone him, about your problems with this player before sending an e-mail. Often you get the chance to better define the problems then, and it might sound a little less serious for your DM. I don't DM myself, but I think that reading an e-mail about a lot of small things would have made me roll my eyes and delete it. Giving yourself some time is also better. Let yourself cool down a bit.
As to the other aspects, some you should handle directly and others you're fine to ask the DM about. A player who is hogging the spotlight or taking too much time is completely the DM's responsiblity. Personality conflicts are not.
A smart DM or other player or 3rd party will tell you, "I'm not going to fix your personal problems with another person for you" or words to that effect. That's because the smart 3rd party will know they cannot.
If you have issues with confrontation in real life, then this is an opportunity for you to develop those skills.
I'll start with this, if you got party members killed, you deserve to take a ribbing. I'm still getting ribbed by a friend whose character I got killed 7 years ago. In fact, I get it from the whole group who were there at the time. "What kind of a Paladin walks into a room and doesn't detect evil?" You get the idea. Usually this is good natured and I take it in stride. I suggest you laugh it off, as well. Ribbing back (when you can do it without ire) would be justified. It may go a long way toward healing your gaming relationship with her.
As to the other aspects, some you should handle directly and others you're fine to ask the DM about. A player who is hogging the spotlight or taking too much time is completely the DM's responsiblity. Personality conflicts are not.
What happened that game was I accidentally alerted the BBEG to our location, and he set up a nasty trap for us. It involved three dire tigers, and a boulder. Yowch.....
We would have lived through it had she not flown off to try to fight the BBEG by herself. (We were low on potions, and she's the only healer)
I indirectly set up the TPK, but if she stayed with us, we all would have lived. Her ego got in the way.
And I don't think that I can respond to that in a good-natured manner. But, I got an Email from my DM, and he says he's glad that I brought up the issue, and he is going to think on it.
2. Don't try to play her character for her, play your own character unless asked for input.
3. Oh well, that's just part of the game, unfortunately.
4. let your DM decide what's overly meticulous gaming.
5. Let the DM enforce what is and is not a reasonable tangent.
That is all.
What happened that game was I accidentally alerted the BBEG to our location, and he set up a nasty trap for us. It involved three dire tigers, and a boulder. Yowch.....
We would have lived through it had she not flown off to try to fight the BBEG by herself. (We were low on potions, and she's the only healer)
I indirectly set up the TPK, but if she stayed with us, we all would have lived. Her ego got in the way.
And I don't think that I can respond to that in a good-natured manner. But, I got an Email from my DM, and he says he's glad that I brought up the issue, and he is going to think on it.
I'll reply to your story with another story. Two weeks ago, the group I'm DMing SoW for came across a group of orcs beating up a lone Dwarf Paladin (those of you who've played SaBW know the one I'm talking about). The orcs were all focused on the beating that the Dwarf was getting the party had a chance at a suprise round. Instead, the Eladrin Wizard in the back of the party yelled out "Leave that Dwarf alone!". Needless to say, regardless of what happened in that encounter, that player will be taking a ribbing for a long time to come. It's all good natured.
I have more such stories. But, the point is that good natured ribbing is a part of the comradery we seek around the game table. If she abandoned the group to get killed off, don't just take it, give it back to her. (Just mind your tone. It's supposed to be good natured, remember!)
The DM runs the game, not the group. He's not a ref, a go-between, a babysitter or your mum. If you have a problem with a player then talk to the player. There is no reason to ask or expect the DM to do it for you.
Yes and no. Part of the DM's job is making sure everybody is enjoying themselves. If the actions of one player are ruining it for another, he definitely should step in and tell them to stop.
Yes and no. Part of the DM's job is making sure everybody is enjoying themselves. If the actions of one player are ruining it for another, he definitely should step in and tell them to stop.
No, the DM's job is to run a game everyone enjoys. He has no special status, authority or responsibility beyond that.
If one player's behavior is bothering another player then it should be dealt with between those two players. If a player's behavior is disrupting the group then the group as a whole - DM and Players alike - should deal with it together.
No, the DM's job is to run a game everyone enjoys. He has no special status, authority or responsibility beyond that.
If one player's behavior is bothering another player then it should be dealt with between those two players. If a player's behavior is disrupting the group then the group as a whole - DM and Players alike - should deal with it together.
Disagree. Every player is worthy of individual consideration.
Disagree. Every player is worthy of individual consideration.
Part of the DM's job is making sure everybody is enjoying themselves.
No, the DM's job is to run a game everyone enjoys.
The DM has no power to *make* other players enjoy themselves.
One DM's responsibility is to run a game with the potential to be enjoyed by everyone. The DM has no ability to guarantee that every player will enjoy it, but the DM has to ensure that, if the PLayer doesn't, it's not because of his/her actions as DM.
When there is a conflict inside the party, the DM stepping in to resolve the conflict is like the referee stepping in to stop two linebackers on the same team from fighting.
Inside the party, which needs to work as a *team*, it would be far better for the party itself to deal with their issues. The DM is not the coach. The DM is not part of the party.
However, he is part of the game.
So if any conflict resolution is required, then *EVERYONE* should be involved. The DM should not have to step in like mommy or daddy to make the fighting stop. He should work with all concerned.
If that doesnt agree with you then maybe you need to be more assertive? You said your DM is good/better with people. That seemed to imply that you think you are not. That is a mistake. Even in this case, the important thing is to lighten the mood a bit. When you get blamed for getting the party killed, put on a smile (fake it till you make it). As soon as it stops becoming a big deal for you people will stop picking it as a way to insult you.
Good luck!
Disagree. Every player is worthy of individual consideration.
Where did I say or imply anything to the contrary?
Also, the beginning of the email just sounds like you have too thin a skin. Whether she's poking fun or legitimately criticizing, who cares. Just let it go.
However, everything else should have been directed to that player. I have found that avoiding confrontation just makes things worse. Next time she's doing something that you and/or others find so egregious, say something right there in front of everyone. Just don't make it a whine fest.