Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 NinjaPlease Jul 29, 2009 19:43:43	I am currently playing the Scales of War adventure with my group. My Party Consists of a Warforged Inspiring Warlord, Halfling Artful Dodger Rogue, Eladrin Shielding of Aegis Swordmage, Tiefling Infernal (con based dagger using) Warlock, and a Goliath Earth Warden. I wouldn't necessarily say that we have dominated the encounters, but I can tell that my DM wishes sometimes that we were a little more banged up than normal. This weekend we finished the Shadows of Umbraforge adventure and things were completely different. Granted it is the end of the adventure and we knew it wouldn't be a cake walk....but when the DM started running some of the encounters using the monster manual, and we very nearly died for a first time in 5 levels, we thought something was a little fishy. In particular, there is a battle with a high level dark creeper striker, a wraith, some shadar kai chain fighters, shadar kai katan fighters, and a shadar kai witch . It wasn't an easy encounter at all. The wraith and witch both had burst 3 auras, one doing psychic damage and one doing necrotic (save ends). The wraiths aura also makes you dazed. We were trapped in a 6X6 room with these creatures and surrounded on all sides. We have no radiant power to turn off the wraiths aura so we are all taking 10 damage automatically every turn. Also, we were forced to make seperate saves against each instance of ongoing necrotic damage we had on us. It really made the wardens font of life feature feel worthless. Well, regardless we barely made it and still had 3 more encounters to go, including the finale, with 2 daily powers between us. *yikes* My roomate and I returned home and he did just had this funny feeling....he logged onto the wizards site and opened up the adventure we had just finished and went to that particular encounter. The encounter was a level 7 as was, but our dm added the witch on his own and increased her aura from 2 to 3 and we got the same amount of experience from that battle as printed in the book. I understand a DM wanting the monsters to do well, but I feel that we are being penalized for creating a team that works REALLY well together. In fact, I would say the 2 defender, 2 striker, leader party build if done with a stationary and mobile defender and very melee heavy can overcome things better than any other party combo I've been in. Controllers are neat and all, but as of yet I have not noticed any dificulties not having one. lol, I'm off topic. Should I approach my DM about this? I feel weird because technically I shouldn't know. My roomate though is also an experienced DM and does so for another campaign in which this DM is a player, so I guess he smelled something fishy. HELP!
#2 lotusblossom Jul 29, 2009 20:24:39	If your players are not being challenged, slightly increase the difficulty of their encounters. You can use two methods for this: increment a few numbers in the monster stat blocks; and/or changing up the mix of monster roles in your encounters. Note that the latter must be handled carefully as players will get suspicious of too many encounters built specifically to handle their party's strengths and weaknesses. Remember: cakewalks and TPKs are fun for nobody!
#3 dark_harrier Jul 29, 2009 20:34:00	As far as penalizing your group, I don't think that the DM was trying to do this. He wanted things to be a little more challenging, and started tweaking things that didn't seem to challenge your party. At the same time, the experience was probably left alone because you are working through a module, and if you start outleveling their assumptions, things go haywire. If this is the only encounter where this has happened, sit back and try not to push the issue. If he starts throwing more nasty encounters like that, leaves signs that you are still running through the same number of encounters, and doesn't give you more experience/treasure, then try to talk to him. Hey _____, I couldn't help but noticing that you are throwing things that are significantly more difficult at us, yet there doesn't seem to be more for it. Do you have a good reason for this? Hopefully, put that way should keep your DM from becoming too defensive, and if it's an honest mistake, he should be willing to fix it. If he wants things to be more challenging, suggest to him to combine encounters or change the terrain some where his creatures can get better advantages, as a solution that should keep rewards from being messed with overall, and yet keep things fun for him.
#4 sirkaikillah Jul 29, 2009 20:58:20	How do you know how many encounters left? Did you peek ahead. It was a harder, but did you enjoy it? I would have been happier if the Dm tweaked things to make them harder if I were steam rolling through a module Next time don't peek.
#5 kouk Jul 29, 2009 21:20:03	How would this be any different if the DM was simply creating the entire adventure and encounters on his own? I doubt you'd have much to complain about then, and you don't have much now ... The DM has the responsibility to change adventures however he deems necessary to make it fun and challenging. Whether he adds monsters, removes them, tweaks them, or cuts out whole encounters is entirely his prerogative. If the game isn't fun for people, then there's no point in playing. Most players and DMs will agree that fights have to be hard sometimes, because the fear of character death (if not a TPK) adds to the excitement of the game. If your group works extremely well together, that does not mean you should never have a hard fight. All it really means is that you are still a party of adventurers playing D&D, and sometimes your strengths will be more obvious than other times -- which is true of all groups. And sometimes encounters will have to be changed to adequately challenge you. Unless your gaming group was assembled with the clear understanding that one person would DM the adventures EXACTLY as written, then it's expected that it will not be run exactly as written. No adventure ever is. All groups handle situations differently, have different than "average" die results, have different makeups, have different ideas and so on. Of course, sometimes a DM underestimates or overestimates the changes that are made to the encounters, but that is true even of the original authors. Sometimes the encounters "as written" in published adventures would utterly annihilate a particular group -- whether because they lack ranged attacks, radiant damage, or somehow had the worst luck ever and wasted all their resources to no effect in the fight before. In short: Having a DM willing and able to make changes to a published adventure is a Good Thing. That's the sign of a DM who's observing what goes on, and cares enough about the game to try and make it better. Five levels without serious challenge is far too long, and it's possible he's finally taking some action now that he's got more experience with your group. Certainly some DMs are horrible and intentionally try to kill PCs just for kicks -- but that doesn't seem the case here. He just added a monster and maybe made a mistake or two on rulings. Maybe it's a "dirty little secret" of DMing successfully, but if the PCs are too strong, then you eventually make the fights harder. If the PCs are too weak, then you eventually make the fights easier. You can't "win" D&D except to have fun along the way. EDIT: If anything, if the fight wasn't fun, then it was just an error on the DM's part (or the original author) in encounter design. The encounter perhaps wasn't changed to suit your party enough, or the exact ramifications of each monster's abilities in concert weren't entirely understood. Mistakes like that are usually learning experiences. The main point is that you had a hard fight -- and won. I don't want to get into it here, but there are all sorts of "tips" for encounter design that aren't obvious by the DMG.
#6 mrfantastic Jul 29, 2009 22:47:59	I completely agree that your DM did nothing wrong. He should tweak monsters as he sees fit. Also since he is doing this, you may have to consider running away or other none fighting solutions if you do get stuck in a too tough encounter. On the other hand, multiple sources of the same type of ongoing damage don't stack. You should have one save against only the highest value damage. I would bring that up with him between sessions, possibly just a friendly email. PHB p.278 ✦ The Same Type of Ongoing Damage: If effects deal ongoing damage of the same type, or if the damage has no type, only the higher number applies. Example: You’re taking ongoing 5 damage (no type) when a power causes you to take ongoing 10 damage. You’re now taking ongoing 10 damage, not 15.
#7 CCS Jul 29, 2009 23:43:04	Should I approach my DM about this? I feel weird because technically I shouldn't know. Oh yes, by all means aproach your DM & inform him of your out-of-character knowledge..... If you thought this altered encounter was tough, just wait until you see what revealing that your reading the modules nets you. Odds are you won't even recognize the encounters to come after that. The best advice? Don't worry about it. Give the DM the benifit of doubt & assume he's trying to make the adventure challenging enough for you. Also realize that the DM is playing this game right along with you. He does have as much right to run/play interesting, challenging encounters as you do. It's not all about the players. Because if your DM come to the conclusion that what he's doing really isn't fun for him.... XPs. So you feel cheated. Get over it. 1) There's only so many xp to be gained. Especially in 4e. 2) Let's work from the premise that the DM isn't directly out to kill off the characters. This means that you'll survive & get those "missing" xp eventually. Besides, if you somehow advance too quickly you'll have the exact problem that led to this altered encounter in the first place. You'll mow through the challenges unscathed & the DM won't have any fun..... So big deal, so you didn't get every single xp point that the books would have you believe you're due.
#8 The_Stray Jul 30, 2009 4:04:13	On the other hand, multiple sources of the same type of ongoing damage don't stack. You should have one save against only the highest value damage. Not quite. The damage doesn't increase, but each new instance of getting bopped for ongoing damage must be saved against to fully stop the damage.
#9 NinjaPlease Jul 30, 2009 17:38:18	I think I need to clarify a few things here. 1st - I didn't peek at the module. I would never do that as it would take the fun out of playing in the first place. My roomate who also DM's could feel something wonky in the encounter. Since we had finished the adventure path he took it upon himself to pull up just that encounter to see if his suspicions were correct. They were. I was just asking if it was something to worry about. consensus - no. Okay, cool. I won't worry about it. 2nd - I didn't say it wasn't fun, just extremely challenging and at times a bit frustrating as we were almost completely shut down. I guess the DM decided we needed a close call to humble us all a little. As long as it doesn't seem to become the norm that's cool. Thanks to those of you that responded helpfully. 3rd - as far as the xp goes I could care less about that, I was just using it as a point to show the encounter was decidedly more challenging than it should have been. Finally - I have now seen a lot of contradictions in regards to ongoing damage. Not just in this forum but many. Which is correct: I get hit by five wraiths giving me five instances of ongoing necrotic damage. I realize that I don't take 25 ongoing damage, just five. I make a save at the end of my turn. Am I in the clear until I get hit again, or do I still have 4 saving throws to go? The latter seems to slow down the game play tremendously which is contradictory to the whole point of 4.0. ThAnKs AnD rAgE oN fElLoW nErdS!
#10 vectorstar Jul 31, 2009 0:38:12	In our games, they've always just 'refreshed' the ongoing damage, which still means only one save. *shrug* As for this little problem... While it is the DM's prerogative to make fights more difficult, he shouldn't forget to add XP for the additions. If it's a harder fight, it's a harder fight, meaning more XP.
#11 kouk Jul 31, 2009 4:17:46	On the other hand, XP is based on a level of "challenge." If normal levels of difficulty don't "challenge" the given party, it's fine to crank up the difficulty to where it arguably "should be" to warrant the XP gains. Similar to how you don't gain XP for defeating "no threat" enemies, like bags of rats, you get less XP for less threatening encounters. Another DM secret it's best not to think about if you're just a Player: DMs control the leveling pace, either directly or indirectly depending on preference at the time. Honestly you want the DM to do that, because the DM is the one making up and running the encounters and adventure in the first place, and it helps if he understands what he's doing. If it would be problematic for the PCs to level up too soon or too late... then that can be finessed. You just have to do it quietly enough that the players don't feel shortchanged ("You beat the dragon... 10xp each"). Anyway, XP is inflated probably more often than it's reduced. What do you think "story rewards" really are for. ;)
#12 The_Stray Jul 31, 2009 9:39:17	I get hit by five wraiths giving me five instances of ongoing necrotic damage. I realize that I don't take 25 ongoing damage, just five. I make a save at the end of my turn. Am I in the clear until I get hit again, or do I still have 4 saving throws to go? The latter seems to slow down the game play tremendously which is contradictory to the whole point of 4.0. ThAnKs AnD rAgE oN fElLoW nErdS! From what I understand of RAW, each instance is technically a separate effect, even if they don't stack with each other. This means that if you're hit for 5 instances of ongoing damage, you need to make 5 saves at the end of your turn to clear them all. However, the fact that it's an aura tagging you with a Save Ends effect is a little bit broken, and it's not an ability I can find on any wraith or shadar-kai I see in the book (or any other source I've looked at for monsters of that level). The aura already does an effect every turn...there's no need for it to be a Save Ends effect. THAT, I think, is the real dodgy part. Keep in mind that when you kill a creature that's tagged you with an effect, the effect immediately ends if the target dies. This includes things normally ended by a save. My advice: focus your fire.
#13 NinjaPlease Aug 01, 2009 10:40:09	Keep in mind that when you kill a creature that's tagged you with an effect, the effect immediately ends if the target dies. This includes things normally ended by a save. My advice: focus your fire. lol. Seriously? I wasn't going to say anything as I agree with Kouk, I don't want xp for walking all over the enemies, and if DM feels we need a better challenge than what is provided in the adventure path based on our parties performance than he is justified. However the biggest problem stemmed from the fact that AFTER the enemies were dead he was getting a kick out of how many saving throws we were going to fail before we shrugged off all the instances of ongoing damage. (ominously hinting at how low we were on surges and we still had a long way to go) Also I just read that same effects DO NOT STACK for saving throw purposes on a rules thread, I'll find it again and edit this post. It says if you get hit with 20 instances of ongoing 5 necrotic damage, 1 save, done. If every player is making 3-5 saves at the end of their turns it slows the game down. However if you get hit with a power that is ongoing 5 necrotic (save ends), and 1a power that is ongoing 5 necrotic AND another effect (save ends) then even though you only take 1 instance of ongoing 5 necrotic, you do need 2 saves. One for each effect. I'm still not going to say anything to the DM as some of the replies really got me thinking about earlier encounters and our party has been doing really well without much 'scare'. The game is a lot more fun when you are actually worried about what could be behind door number 3 instead of just kicking it down. (Vin)Warlock: Anyone else here think that we've finally made it? (rolls 2 on perception check to listen) Because all I hear is wood. (Bern)Warden: Let's find out together! I make a STR check to kick the door down. (rolls die) (Cluj)Rogue: I try the handle. (Bern)Warden: I got a 24 on my STR check. DM: Cluj, as you wrap your hand around the knob and disengage the lock, Bern delivers a swift kick to the door ripping it from its hinges and sending the door (rolls 1d4) 3 squares into the room. Make an Acrobatics check to release the knob ontime. (Cluj) Rogue: (rolls natural 20) Can I surf the door into the room instead?
#14 The_Stray Aug 01, 2009 14:39:53	lol. Seriously? I wasn't going to say anything as I agree with Kouk, I don't want xp for walking all over the enemies, and if DM feels we need a better challenge than what is provided in the adventure path based on our parties performance than he is justified. However the biggest problem stemmed from the fact that AFTER the enemies were dead he was getting a kick out of how many saving throws we were going to fail before we shrugged off all the instances of ongoing damage. (ominously hinting at how low we were on surges and we still had a long way to go) Also I just read that same effects DO NOT STACK for saving throw purposes on a rules thread, I'll find it again and edit this post. It says if you get hit with 20 instances of ongoing 5 necrotic damage, 1 save, done. If every player is making 3-5 saves at the end of their turns it slows the game down. However if you get hit with a power that is ongoing 5 necrotic (save ends), and 1a power that is ongoing 5 necrotic AND another effect (save ends) then even though you only take 1 instance of ongoing 5 necrotic, you do need 2 saves. One for each effect. Huh. That's weird. I've been consulting my books, and I'm not finding mention one way or the other. I may be conflating a house rule with an official ruling, since that's how it's run at our table.
#15 kouk Aug 01, 2009 15:11:45	Only a few things actually end on the original user's death. Specifically Conjurations and Zones (PHB 59) and Polymorph effects (PHB2 220). Some powers specify in their text special conditions that cause it to end (like "Until the end of the encounter or when you're reduced to 0 hit points or fewer"), but most don't have such clauses. With ongoing damage, you will only take the higher number at the start of a turn as specified in PHB 278. That does not automatically mean the other effects are no longer on you however. It's just that the damage numbers don't stack -- they would quickly pile up and kill everybody that way. Penalties would stack if the powers are different but have similar effects (they usually do), unless the power says otherwise. On PHB 275 the sidebar explains that Penalties from the same power (even if used by different monsters) don't stack. This might be what you're thinking of; if three ghosts each give you -2 to attacks with the same power they each have, you are just taking -2 to attacks. That is not commenting on the durations however, simply the penalties currently messing with your character. The rules for when ongoing effects end only point to a Save as being the way to remove them as a general rule. This is on page 57 under "Hit" and page 278 under "Durations." I'm not seeing a rule stating the same powers don't continue. It's also a two-way street: At some point your party will have powers that are Save Ends, and likely won't want those effects to end just by the original user getting knocked out or killed. You also likely wouldn't want one save to end multiple instances of similar effects. As an example: Your Ranger uses a Daily attack power that gives Ongoing 5 damage (save ends). Your Rogue uses a Daily attack power on the same target that gives Ongoing 10 damage (save ends). The numbers won't stack to make it Ongoing 15 damage, but would all your teammates be happy if the monster can make a single save and turn off both effects at once? Whether an ongoing effect ends on a creature's death is partly up to whether the DM thinks it should. If the ongoing effect is like a physical poison injected into you, it doesn't make all that much sense for the effect to end just because you killed the snake that bit you. Normally there aren't specific conditions for when an effect would end on death, but it's often decent to just make a ruling. For instance, if a creature was using some power that did Ongoing damage by chewing on you, it might make sense for the damage to stop once you kill the monster. (Often such things are based on Grab which end on death, but I'm not able to think of a better example at the moment.) Finally many groups just play that all Save Ends conditions just automatically end after the encounter, including things like characters making Death Saves to stop bleeding out. That's more of a matter of convenience on the assumption that players will manage to break free of the effects anyhow, and on the realization that multiple saves can be extremely tedious (like you noted). However if it was deemed important that your resources be accurately determined, because you were in a dungeon with monsters all around, then having the saves continue is likely warranted. Those times when you have a random encounter on the road while going someplace aren't really worth tracking if there won't be another fight that day. Multiple monsters with similar Save Ends conditions are extremely boring for players to fight, and can contribute to poor encounter design. I don't think the latter is particularly an important thing to teach though.> There are also those times when very well made encounters still end up being dull, because one side just dominates the other with die rolls.>
#16 The_Stray Aug 01, 2009 18:32:14	A big issue, though, is the fact that the auras were the things apparently tagging the players with Save Ends effects, which is where all the instances came from in the first place. That seems to me to be massivly unfair, as an aura triggers every round and can then set up an ever increasing loop of death as multiple instances of Save Ends powers stack up over the course of the fight. And none of the monsters he mentioned actually have auras that do ongoing damage. Not a single one. Some of them do auto-damage, yes, but that's a different thing entirely.
#17 kouk Aug 02, 2009 1:59:42	I just looked over the adventure also, and I'm assuming you got two encounters at the same time, the Library and the Great Hall. None of those things have ongoing necrotic or otherwise. Another issue that frequently screws up encounters is misreading monster powers. I'd say unless this sort of thing becomes standard, just let it go as one bad encounter out of a bunch.