So, I'm a 21st level Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/IotSFV 7/Archmage 1. I thought my character would be pretty strong, but it seems that everything I fight is immune to magic.
Well, not everything. But at least 50% of the time, the monsters are immune magic. Furthermore, the last thing I thought was both immune to magic and immune to stunning, so most of my no SR spells (like Maw of Chaos, which stuns the opponent) were worthless. Furthermore, everything I've fought is capable of flying, so Reverse Gravity (no SR) has been completely useless as well.
About the only thing I could do was counter the monsters spells, cast buffs on the party fighter (who was doing ~250 damage per round), gave people energy resistance and minorly inconvinienced the monsters with a Solid Fog spell.
I couldn't even hide effectively. Because of their magic immunity, the monsters could simply bypass by defensive veils and prismatic spheres.
Does anyone know some effective no SR spells I could use???
So far I have:
Maw of Chaos (aoe long duration stun, no SR. Unfortunately, usually immune to stunning)
Orb spells (These do very meager damage. The fighter is doing 250 per round, the Psion about that much with a no SR Hurricane spell. I didn't take metamagic feats either, since I'm not supposed to be doing direct damage)
Reverse Gravity (Worthless! Everything I fight has flying. Darn it)
Sold Fog / Freezing Fog (These are somewhat useful). However, things can usually still be pretty effective, since most monsters have blindsight and can cast spells and rays.
Enervation (...Everything is immune to level or ability drain. Everything)
Great Thunderclap (Things are usually immune to stunning)
Constricting Chains (This is very, very meh. They can just sit there and attack/cast, or they can break free in a single turn).
Blinding Glory (blinds all evil creatures, no save or SR. Unfortunately, often creatures aren't evil, don't have eyes (like constructs), or have blindsight).
Deadly Lahar (I recently remember this one. This should be useful. A no SR cone effect that does moderate damage. Probably the best option)
Obedient Avalanche is another option, but it is sort of meh.
Trasmute Rock to Lava doesn't work on flying creatures (i.e. most creatures).
Dhulark’s Glasstrike[Transmutation 6] (MoF p89)(MoFe)+
range, 1hr/lvl, FortNeg>
– This spell either
a) Transforms a creature into glass for the
spell’s duration. Any magic items carried
by the target are left unchanged. When
restored, any damage the glass took is
applied to the target. –or–
b) Transforms 4 cubic feet of material into
glass for the spell’s duration. The target
can be a section of a larger object.
If you are facing a lot of constructs, as you say:
Ironguard, Greater[Abjuration 7](MoF p97)
Touch, 1rnd/lvl>
– Touched subject passes through all metal with
less than a +3 Enhancement bonus.
Constructs are rarely enhanced with weapon enchantments, so it should replace some of your other things that would let you hide.
Zajimarn’s Avalanche[conjuration 9] (MoF p134)
– One contiguous 10’ per level is filled with a
wave of ice and slush. All creatures in the
area of effect take 1d4/lvl (max 24d4) (no
save) and are carried away from the caster
5’/lvl (RefNeg). Creatures that are swept
away are left Prone, but take no extra damage.
It's not high damage, but I'm sure you can find a couple of uses for being able to shove a creature 105ft.
It may be worth looking at in it's source, but there's no indication that the area needs to be on the ground.
It kinda sucks having all of your spells be negated all of the time by the encounters. Hopefully others can be more helpful, and good luck.
Summon/Gate in some extraplanar help. Shapechange/Polymorph/Dragonshape into something and get into melee with the fighter.
Ah yes. I should have mentioned that. Gate and Shapechange/Polymorph are all banned.
This is just me poking through Crystal keep and seeing what might be helpful.
Dhulark’s Glasstrike[Transmutation 6] (MoF p89)(MoFe)+
range, 1hr/lvl, FortNeg>
– This spell either
a) Transforms a creature into glass for the
spell’s duration. Any magic items carried
by the target are left unchanged. When
restored, any damage the glass took is
applied to the target. –or–
b) Transforms 4 cubic feet of material into
glass for the spell’s duration. The target
can be a section of a larger object.
If you are facing a lot of constructs, as you say:
Ironguard, Greater[Abjuration 7](MoF p97)
Touch, 1rnd/lvl>
– Touched subject passes through all metal with
less than a +3 Enhancement bonus.
Constructs are rarely enhanced with weapon enchantments, so it should replace some of your other things that would let you hide.
Zajimarn’s Avalanche[conjuration 9] (MoF p134)
– One contiguous 10’ per level is filled with a
wave of ice and slush. All creatures in the
area of effect take 1d4/lvl (max 24d4) (no
save) and are carried away from the caster
5’/lvl (RefNeg). Creatures that are swept
away are left Prone, but take no extra damage.
It's not high damage, but I'm sure you can find a couple of uses for being able to shove a creature 105ft.
It may be worth looking at in it's source, but there's no indication that the area needs to be on the ground.
It kinda sucks having all of your spells be negated all of the time by the encounters. Hopefully others can be more helpful, and good luck.
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, I believe Dhulark’s Glasstrike allows SR. I actually had this one prepared but magic immunity counters it. The Irongaurd seems interesting, but epic constructs can usually cast spells or use supernatural abilities. The last one unfortunately allows SR as well.
Ah yes. I should have mentioned that. Gate and Shapechange/Polymorph are all banned.
Tell the GM that he's not exactly giving you a fair shake if fully HALF of the monsters you face are basically immune to YOU. And if he frowns upon summons--which seems like the only thing you can do to affect the monsters if you can't shapeshift or cast spells AT them--then he needs to reconsider his monster choice.
...Or, honestly, you could abandon epic-level 3.x D&D. Good god, that's a game that plays very differently than the same game before level 21.
Furthermore, everything I've fought is capable of flying, so Reverse Gravity (no SR) has been completely useless as well.
This sounds like a house rule as well. I've never seen anything that makes flying creatures immune to reverse gravity.
This sounds like a house rule as well. I've never seen anything that makes flying creatures immune to reverse gravity.
Perhaps, but getting flung into the air isn't particuarly problematic when you can fly.
Spell Resistance isn't immunity (unless your DM has another house rule). If something has SR, you need to roll a caster level check to bypass it. Frankly, most of the time it SR doesn't matter unless you roll really crappy. You should be able to overcome SR most of the time should you chose to use those spells. Though no save, no SR spells are certainly better.
This sounds like a house rule as well. I've never seen anything that makes flying creatures immune to reverse gravity.
It's not spell resistance. Lots of epic creatures have "Magic Immunity". It's a trait that is basically spell resistance infinite. Nothing that allows SR can effect them.
Reverse Gravity says: "Creatures who can fly or levitate can keep themselves from falling"
Spell Resistance isn't immunity (unless your DM has another house rule). If something has SR, you need to roll a caster level check to bypass it. Frankly, most of the time it SR doesn't matter unless you roll really crappy. You should be able to overcome SR most of the time should you chose to use those spells. Though no save, no SR spells are certainly better.
Spell Resistance isn't immunity, but immunity IS spell resistance, as far as 3.5 rules are concerned, at any rate. It's spell resistance to an infinite degree.
So 'SR: yes' = vulnerable to immunity
Reverse Gravity says: "Creatures who can fly or levitate can keep themselves from falling"
Damn it! I even opened up the spell before making that comment, and didn't see that line!
Do you remember some of the things you've faced off against?
Damn it! I even opened up the spell before making that comment, and didn't see that line!
Do you remember some of the things you've faced off against?
I remember the Anaxim. Those ones really make me feel useless.
Did you start at 21, or did your group work up to epic levels?
If you worked up, has your DM always been... stingy with the creatures he puts you against, or is it something new?
If it's something new, is there any chance it's just a temporary "plot" thing?
And a few more questions, if you don't mind.
Did you start at 21, or did your group work up to epic levels?
If you worked up, has your DM always been... stingy with the creatures he puts you against, or is it something new?
If it's something new, is there any chance it's just a temporary "plot" thing?
We started at level 21, although we've done a ton of other campaigns with the same DM at both low and high levels (although never epic before).
I think it's just the epic level monsters. They have tons of immunities. I can maybe talk to my DM about it - I can probably convince him to allow some conjuration spells (just not as powerful as Gate).
You could be a buffer to the party if you wanted. You could also cast certain area spells that will hurt said monsters. like changing ground into lava. thats like, 20d6 damage per round plus they are drowning in it. be creative.
oh, and make your OWN spells. epic ones. your epic level, so why not. have them be greater orb spells. or anything else you want. Hell, you can make a spell that is a melee touch attack that is called "construct to life" and make them living. think real hard you will come up with something
NOTE: Gate, Shapechange and Polymorph are banned in the campaign I am playing in. In general our DM also looks down upon Conjuration spells because they slow down combat.
So, I'm a 21st level
Your DM is DMing a 21st level 3.X campaign and is worried about Conjuration spells slowing combat down?
Did he start it at high level? I get the feeling he did. He started you guys at like 20th level didn't he? or 21st?
Edit: I read your post where you said he did. I knew it.
This guy screams inexperience in epic level play. If everything SUDDENLY is immune to everything, he obviously just doesn't know how to handle high level play.
I'll be honest, epic level in 3.X should never be played in my opinion. At least you should not play it as adventurers. At that level, you are able to do such obscene things, that combat itself becomes nearly irrelevant. Any DM trying to make combat matter past 1 or 2 rounds is off his meds. When you can cast EMPOWERED WISH multiple times a day without a scroll, locked doors and hit points don't mean a freshly cut crop of jack crap.
Epic level play is completely different from regular D&D. It seriously is no longer the same game and is quite poorly balanced by the game designers. You cannot have a dungeon crawl at 21st level, because stone no longer matters when you can be ethereal. Saves and attacks fall into "Don't roll a 1" and "You need a 20" and rarely in between. Anywhere on this plane is childs play to get to and anywhere in any plane is at most a mild inconvenience. You are, for all intents and purposes, quasi deities.The closest things you will find to tales of epic level characters are Elminster and Raistlin, and they were on first name basis with multiple gods, or destroying gods left and right (respectively).
If your DM is ready to play epic levels, he shouldn't even need a book because he should have customized the game to extreme levels to suit what he planned. Honestly I find the epic level handbook to be a waste of money.
And for the record, having convenient immunities and "Undispellable" castle walls that prevent teleportation and scrying just so the DM can shoehorn in a dungeon crawl like any other from 1st level is NOT the type of customization I mean.
Have your DM start a new game. Make the characters first to fifth level.
Your DM is DMing a 21st level 3.X campaign and is worried about Conjuration spells slowing combat down?
Did he start it at high level? I get the feeling he did. He started you guys at like 20th level didn't he? or 21st?
Edit: I read your post where you said he did. I knew it.
This guy screams inexperience in epic level play. If everything SUDDENLY is immune to everything, he obviously just doesn't know how to handle high level play.
I'll be honest, epic level in 3.X should never be played in my opinion. At least you should not play it as adventurers. At that level, you are able to do such obscene things, that combat itself becomes nearly irrelevant. Any DM trying to make combat matter past 1 or 2 rounds is off his meds. When you can cast EMPOWERED WISH multiple times a day without a scroll, locked doors and hit points don't mean a freshly cut crop of jack crap.
Epic level play is completely different from regular D&D. It seriously is no longer the same game and is quite poorly balanced by the game designers. You cannot have a dungeon crawl at 21st level, because stone no longer matters when you can be ethereal. Saves and attacks fall into "Don't roll a 1" and "You need a 20" and rarely in between. Anywhere on this plane is childs play to get to and anywhere in any plane is at most a mild inconvenience. You are, for all intents and purposes, quasi deities.The closest things you will find to tales of epic level characters are Elminster and Raistlin, and they were on first name basis with multiple gods, or destroying gods left and right (respectively).
If your DM is ready to play epic levels, he shouldn't even need a book because he should have customized the game to extreme levels to suit what he planned. Honestly I find the epic level handbook to be a waste of money.
And for the record, having convenient immunities and "Undispellable" castle walls that prevent teleportation and scrying just so the DM can shoehorn in a dungeon crawl like any other from 1st level is NOT the type of customization I mean.
Have your DM start a new game. Make the characters first to fifth level.
1) You are right that we are inexperienced regarding epic levels, since this campaign is the first epic level campaign we have played. However, our characters aren't abusively powerful, largely because most abuses (crazy channeling epic magic, shapechange, ect) are not allowed. As a result, combat has been pretty reasonable. I was upset about my severely limited means of combating magic immunity, but people have offered some reasonable suggestions on how to fix that (namely, asking the DM to allow some conjuration spells).
2) We are in fact quasi deities. We were gods (Divine Rank 0) until Ao stripped us of our divinity /random backstory.
3) Killing gods! Indeed, this is on my agenda (not directly of course. I'm far too weak for that)
4) Sorry, I don't see why you would want to empower wish
. Empower only multiplies variable effects (so you couldn't, for example, make an item of 25k * 1.5 value. Still just 25k)4) Sorry, I don't see why you would want to empower wish
A wizard should probably never be preparing an Empowered Wish, but a Sorceror might Empower a Wish on the fly as they use it to replicate the effects of some random spell that they didn't have the spells known slot available to learn
Sometimes, burning 5k xp to get that perfect spell effect to solve your little problem-of-the-moment is, in fact, worthwhile, particularly at epic levels, when the problem-of-the-moment might well garner a few thousand xp if solved, and kill you if not solved.
1) You are right that we are inexperienced regarding epic levels, since this campaign is the first epic level campaign we have played. However, our characters aren't abusively powerful, largely because most abuses (crazy channeling epic magic, shapechange, ect) are not allowed.
I have to say right now, if you are fed any crap about those spells being abusive, that's complete and utter bullcrap. Especially at that level. Polymorph, with errata applied, does not allow you to do anything that the fighter wouldn't be able to do as well. Gate is expensive and ends up summoning a lot of creatures that are easily dispatched by a few attacks from any epic level challenge. At best they are a temporary shield unless the epic level monster pulls punches.
How is the fighter able to hit anything if it's all flying anyway? I'm guessing magic items but I'm betting the monster's fly speed is much better than whatever the fighter is mustering.
Your DM is being a jackass about your class. Ask for a character change to scout or rogue or some other class, because right now you have been reduced to support class at best.
But if you WANT to work with what you got, it's time to start abusing the hell out of metamagic feats.
Maximized Empowered Twinned Orb of Acid (180 + 14d6(average 42) = 222 damage) plus a quickened maximized Orb of Acid, dealing another 90 damage, requiring 3 fortitude saves or being sickened and taking a total 312 damage on average. Change to different orbs as needed.
Want more? Use Improved Blink a lot. That's a 5th level spell that puts you on the ethereal plane 50% of the time so anything that cant hit ethereal misses half the time, and whatever you are fighting against loses it's dexterity bonus to AC, you get a +2 to hit (regardless of anything. Nothing makes you immune to losing the dex bonus to AC). Unlike regular blink, there is no failure or miss chance for you. Hitting a flat footed touch AC shouldn't be too hard.
Or for even more fun, research an epic version of telekinesis and drop a city block on whatever the catch of the day is.
Seriously though, ask your DM to at least change builds. With summoned creatures being so discouraged, you wouldn't have a reason to be a conjurer. Being a conjurer without summoning spells is like having a rifle without bullets. Sure you can fix a bayonet to it, but then why not just carry a spear or a sword?
Have your DM start a new game. Make the characters first to fifth level.
I'm going to have to agree. Instead of just banning everything that gives you any glint of power, and by power I mean the ability to do something at all, you'd be better off playing lower levels and just putting everything back into the game. As it stands right now, then DM has pretty much made you a really crappy bard. You have no benefits for being a wizard and offer very little to the group by the sounds of it. Why sit back and watch everyone else have fun?
It sounds like this DM is not ready for epic level play. Your an epic level wizard/archmage. You and your group should be steamrolling most of the monsters. This is not level 2 D&D, its called epic for a reason.
1) You are right that we are inexperienced regarding epic levels, since this campaign is the first epic level campaign we have played. However, our characters aren't abusively powerful, largely because most abuses (crazy channeling epic magic, shapechange, ect) are not allowed. As a result, combat has been pretty reasonable. I was upset about my severely limited means of combating magic immunity, but people have offered some reasonable suggestions on how to fix that (namely, asking the DM to allow some conjuration spells).
Actually, I guess I'd like to ask about this. Did he ban the entire conjuration school? What about teleport? What about the various orb spells, such as orb of acid?
If he only banned summoning spells, even those can be worked around. Work with your DM on it, and have stat blocks for all the things you normally summon ready to roll. That way, when you summon 1d3 super-bad-ass whatevers, you have their stats and can right away determine what they're going to do on the field of battle.
A wizard should probably never be preparing an Empowered Wish, but a Sorceror might Empower a Wish on the fly as they use it to replicate the effects of some random spell that they didn't have the spells known slot available to learn
Maybe it's a style thing, but in my opinion you wouldn't apply Empower Spell to wish. You'd just wish for the spell effect you want. To copy an example from this thread, you wouldn't cast a Maximized Empowered Twinned wish and ask for an orb of acid. You'd cast wish and ask for a Maximized Empowered Twinned orb of acid. (of course, the spell level of that might be too high for wish, but ignore that. ;) )
Epic level play is completely different from regular D&D. It seriously is no longer the same game and is quite poorly balanced by the game designers. You cannot have a dungeon crawl at 21st level, because stone no longer matters when you can be ethereal. Saves and attacks fall into "Don't roll a 1" and "You need a 20" and rarely in between. Anywhere on this plane is childs play to get to and anywhere in any plane is at most a mild inconvenience. You are, for all intents and purposes, quasi deities.The closest things you will find to tales of epic level characters are Elminster and Raistlin, and they were on first name basis with multiple gods, or destroying gods left and right (respectively).
So, this paragraph generates a few comments.
-- Epic play is most definitely different than "standard" play. In a game that evolves there naturally, those differences aren't felt as sharply. At least not at 21st level. Of course, this game didn't evolve into epic play; it started there.
-- I also agree that the ELH is poorly written and poorly balanced. That said, I think at 21st level they aren't going to feel some of those problems too badly.
-- You can still do what feels like a dungeon crawl in epic-land, but it takes a lot of work on the DM's behalf. The "dungeon" typically has to span several planes. You're correct that linear dungeons, where you go in the front door and fight your way to the back to kill the boss, don't work though.
*
I think talking to your DM is the best course of action. In addition to talking about summoning spells, I'd see if you can get polymorph put back on the table. A reasonable compromise is to determine a list of creatures you can polymorph into with your DM, and (again) have those stat blocks already figured out and ready to go so that when you polymorph into a koala bear (or whatever ;) ), you already know the impact on your stats.
Gate I can also understand being banned, because it gets used in a lot of abusive scenarios. Many of those, though, are designed for low level characters to get a lot of power. At this level, gate is abusable but not as readily. The same thing applies here. If you want to use gate to summon stuff to fight for you, work out a list of approved things with your DM prior to using the spell. Then have those stat blocks ready to roll so that if you ever gate in a balor (or whatever) you right away have things ready to roll.
If monsters all have Spell Immunity, than just make your spells have indirect effects. Use Greater Teleport Object (L.9 spell, Teleport object with range and accuracy of greater teleport and 50% higher weight and volume limits) to teleport a massive plate of stone above the enemy, to big to dodge or to reflex-save away from. Crunch. damage assuming max weight and falling 200ft. is 25d6 (only 87 average dmg). now add the falling damage of your flying foe who is being smashed, and you now have 35d6 (122 dmg) Follow with a time stop and two more massive stones (max weight) plopped down to keep the beast from getting up(also doing another 50d6, take average dmg to 197), and it will eventually be crushed to death, or suffocate because it's lungs can't expand to bring in air. Use any time left to buff the fighter for if the beast somehow gets out from your trap.
Last post was three months ago. Bad necromancer.
Cast "Get New DM".
It's fine for there to exist bad guys with spell resistance, but if it's every bad guy you're facing, the DM hates his players to play spellcasters.