| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1angelus_obscuraMay 26, 2009 1:08:54 | Okay, here is my predicament. My gaming group just finished Keep on the Shadowfell, and decided to either readjust our current characters or make new ones for the next adventure/game. We are a 6 player group, with 2 defenders (dragonborn pal, dwarf ftr), 1 controller (eladrin wiz), 2 strikers (1/2elf ranger, goliath barb), and a leader. I was the leader (Bard). However, our dwarf fighter is being switched out for a melee rogue, and the goliath barbarian for a sorcerer. This means we will have 4 strikers and only 1 defender. GAH! Let's face it, a bard is a poor substitute for a healer in such a party. So, I made 3 characters (2 defenders, one leader) for my esteemed peer's feedback and advice. Candidate 1: an urgrosh wielding goliath ES warden who will MC into barbarian Candidate 2: bastard sword wielding shadar-kai swordmage w/ racial feats Candidate 3: bastard sword wielding dhampyr battle cleric of Kelemvor Which of these would be ideally suited for the changing party? Keep in mind that at least half the party will be ranged squishies with only 1 defender. Thanks in advance! |
| #2tiornysMay 26, 2009 2:50:27 | I'm actually going to disagree with one of your initial premises. I think a Bard can make an excellent leader for this group; specifically, a Bard of Valor. With 4 strikers, stuff is going to become bloodied or dead almost every round, which means you'll be handing out a ton of temp HP (preemptive healing). Bards are also easy to build for primary melee with a decent ranged presence, which is excellent for this group; you'll normally help hold a line, but you'll be able to contribute effectively when you can catch enemies in ideal situations. Finally, while Bards don't have the raw healing bonus that Clerics do, they're probably better at helping a bunch of strikers kill off the enemy quickly, which acts as preemptive healing because dead enemies don't deal damage. t~ |
| #3angelus_obscuraMay 26, 2009 3:10:22 | I'm actually going to disagree with one of your initial premises. I think a Bard can make an excellent leader for this group; specifically, a Bard of Valor. With 4 strikers, stuff is going to become bloodied or dead almost every round, which means you'll be handing out a ton of temp HP (preemptive healing). Bards are also easy to build for primary melee with a decent ranged presence, which is excellent for this group; you'll normally help hold a line, but you'll be able to contribute effectively when you can catch enemies in ideal situations. Finally, while Bards don't have the raw healing bonus that Clerics do, they're probably better at helping a bunch of strikers kill off the enemy quickly, which acts as preemptive healing because dead enemies don't deal damage. You make an excellent point. Okay, so I gave my bard a face lift. I took away half-elf and made her a human dhampyr. I'll MC her into Swordmage (Heart of the Blade) and eventually get some of their awesome teleportation powers. I'll make her Con as high as possible (dhampyr racial power can use Con for attack). Should I get improved grab to use with her dhampyr power? I have this awesome mental image of Mina from Extraordinary Gentlemen when she turns all batt, lol. Thanks for reigniting my love for the bard. :D |
| #4NovacatMay 26, 2009 3:15:19 | My philosophy, as both a player and a DM, has always been that the players should play the characters they want to play. If you like playing the bard, play the bard. If you want to play a cleric, play the cleric. If you want to play a monkey, play a damn monkey. I could make suggestions on what would tactically be the best class to compliment the party, but that would muddle the far more important task of choosing the character that's right for you. That said, I do agree with Tiornys that a bard is a fine healer, and if that's what floats your respective boat, then pack your mandolin. |
| #5tiornysMay 26, 2009 3:19:43 | You make an excellent point. Okay, so I gave my bard a face lift. I took away half-elf and made her a human dhampyr. I'll MC her into Swordmage (Heart of the Blade) and eventually get some of their awesome teleportation powers. I'll make her Con as high as possible (dhampyr racial power can use Con for attack). Should I get improved grab to use with her dhampyr power? I have this awesome mental image of Mina from Extraordinary Gentlemen when she turns all batt, lol. Improved Grab sounds like a great heroic option. In paragon, I'm pretty sure there's a feat that lets you bite people with mere combat advantage, so you'd want to retrain Imp. Grab to that feat. I'm pretty sure Mina was at least paragon, so she probably didn't need to grab ;) t~ edit: also, awesome character concept :D |
| #6angelus_obscuraMay 26, 2009 12:22:22 | Improved Grab sounds like a great heroic option. In paragon, I'm pretty sure there's a feat that lets you bite people with mere combat advantage, so you'd want to retrain Imp. Grab to that feat. I'm pretty sure Mina was at least paragon, so she probably didn't need to grab ;) Savage Bite is the paragon feat you were talking about, and yes, I shall retrain into it. edit: also, awesome character concept :D Thanks. :embarrass Okay, so here are the stats for the bard ... Illyria (human dhampyr) Valbard, level 5 Ability Scores: Str 13, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 18 HP 43, Surges: 10 Skills: Arcana, Athletics, Acrobatics, Insight, Perception, Streetwise Feats (in order taken): Vampiric Heritage, Armor Prof. (scale), Improved Grab, Heart of the Blade (MC Swordmage) Gear (I cannot change these): harsh songblade (longsword) +1, black iron scale armor +1 Should I dump Wisdom and Dex even more to boost Charisma? |
| #7tiornysMay 27, 2009 4:52:04 | Should I dump Wisdom and Dex even more to boost Charisma? If you expect the character to make it into epic, it's probably worth losing 2 Dex for 1 Cha. If you think the game will end in paragon tier, then it's not worth it. Here are the levels where a starting 18 is better than a starting 17: 1-3 8-10 14-17 21-23 28-30 t~ |
| #8bobbi_wilburnMay 27, 2009 10:16:50 | with a skirmish heavy group, the best thing you can do is get a heavy controller. put 'em in flanks, move em from combat, and immobilize the big bad. If you are really worried about defense, take armor feats or just take a defender class. |
| #9rexracerjrMay 27, 2009 18:44:05 | Savage Bite is the paragon feat you were talking about, and yes, I shall retrain into it. Illyria? Been watching Angel, have we? |
| #10koukMay 27, 2009 19:58:34 | I think a good compromise while still giving a lot of healing is a Bard who multiclasses Cleric and/or Warlord for their healing powers. A few choice Cleric powers and even without the things to let you use Charisma for Cleric powers and you'll be a healing machine (Consecrated Ground uses Charisma by default). Even just Improved Majestic Word goes a long way. |
| #11angelus_obscuraMay 28, 2009 0:38:09 | with a skirmish heavy group, the best thing you can do is get a heavy controller. put 'em in flanks, move em from combat, and immobilize the big bad. That's what I was thinking too, initially. An ES warden would be perfect for what you advised. A heavy defender with a splash of control. Illyria? Been watching Angel, have we? Angel? Wuzzat? ... Lol, kidding. Yeah, I'm pretty much a Buffy fanboy, Angel by extension. When Fred turned into the Demon Queen Illyria, that made my season. Illyria is actually my old 3.5 half-elf bard that I ported over. Full name is Illyria Emilie Anteros. But in the FR game I'm in, making her a dhampyr human made more sense, thereby giving her a darker edge. Where Fred had blue-tinged skin and hair, Illyria will have blood-red colorings and amber eyes that capture those whose images happen to get reflected in 'em. :P I think a good compromise while still giving a lot of healing is a Bard who multiclasses Cleric and/or Warlord for their healing powers. A few choice Cleric powers and even without the things to let you use Charisma for Cleric powers and you'll be a healing machine (Consecrated Ground uses Charisma by default). Ehhhhhh, I feel that going into cleric is a cop-out as the bard is already a leader with her own healing shtick. I don't want o spoil the team with too much healing; it breeds lazy players. I'm thinking of multiclassing her into swordmage for the kool utilities. Also plan on taking more dhampyr bloodline feats (Mist Form, etc) and the necromantic powers from Dragon 372. |
| #12angelus_obscuraMay 28, 2009 8:33:55 | Okay, change of plans. I thought this through even more during sleep and decided to keep the half-elf and just add in dhampyr. I've decided that a half-elf dhampyr would pass itself as a human dhampyr even better than using the human base, what with the free low-light vision, bonuses to Con, etc. Here is the new stats ... 1/2 elf dhampyr Valbard lvl 5 Ability Scores: Str 14, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 20 Skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Insight, Streetwise Feats - Class Bonus: Ritual Caster Level 1: Armor Proficiency (scale) Level 2: Vampiric Heritage [Vampire Bloodline] Level 4: Improved Grab (retrain to Savage Bite @ 11) Powers Dilettante: Storm Walk Dhampyr: Blood Drain Level 1 At-will: Guiding Strike, Vicious Mockery Level 1 Encounter: Shout of Triumph Level 1 Daily: Slayer’s Song Level 2 Utility: Song of Courage Level 3 Encounter: Song of the New Dawn Level 5 Daily: Tune of Ice and Wind |
| #13tiornysMay 28, 2009 16:30:48 | I'm still unsure about which MC feat to give her, but I'm still leaning towards swordmage. Unless, should I paragon multiclass into anything and go Versatile Master to pick and choose powers from any CHA class? I could take all 4 MC feats, the final feat swapping with level 4 and retraining at level 11. From an optimization standpoint, it's hard to recommend anything other than War Chanter, as that paragon path is very powerful. I also don't think any of the other Bard PP's fits your theme very well, and I don't like the Dhampyr paths. Paragon multiclassing is an interesting idea, but it eats up a ton of feats that you could be using on bloodline feats, so I think that choice comes down to how much you want to emphasize the Dhampyr part of your character. What you might look for is a paragon path from another class that fits your character well (unless you like one of the paths that I didn't). If you find one, obviously, you would multiclass into that class. As a side note, Warlocks get some number of teleports.... t~ |