Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kaveh500 Oct 06, 2010 7:05:25	So I've got a Virtue of Cunning Bard and I've made the Virtue more powerful by getting Improved Cunning at level 12. So now each round I get to slide someone who is missed by an opponent 2 squares. Seems simple right? Well for the first few sessions--I'd never played a Bard before--I would ask people where they want to be slid. Bad move. Because then everything grinds to a halt while the other 3 players immediately have an extensive heads-together to think about what would be the best imaginable place to move. Seriously, I've watched 5-10 whole minutes creep by--trading roll-eyes with the DM--while these 3 guys mull over where to slide the one guy who was just missed. So starting 2 sessions ago, before we started play I said, "Screw it: When I use Virtue of Cunning, I and I alone will decide where you slide. And if it's a sub-optimal placement, tough: It's my power. I decide. We'll just say that the power of bardic magic is temperamental and unpredictable." Well: Mutiny. How dare I decide such things on my own?! I'm breaking up team unity! Now we'll lose because of me! Things to bear in mind: 1.) These 3 other players are mull-it-over-ers par excellence: One of their turns can take many minutes, much of it spent in near silence as they mutter to themselves, going over each and every power card, getting up, looking at the minis from all angles like they're lining up a golf shot or something. 2.) Despite all their unbelievable chickenshit caution, ALL of their characters have died once already, whereas I, who actually think about what I'm going to do on my turn BEFORE my turn happens, have rarely even been bloodied. 3.) I'm the only Leader. Seems like "Leader" actually means I get to make some sort of unilateral decisions and not just heal them when they inevitably screw up from overthinking everything. 4.) DM is thinking of instituting a 60-second limit for decisionmaking on what you'll do during your turn.  I agree with him. Any other suggestions for me?
#2 DanTracker Oct 06, 2010 7:26:23	stick to your guns. Your DM has a good idea in creating a time limit for taking turns. Combat can take long enough already. You could also ignore the Cunning feature now and then if you think the player won't appreciate the extra help your bard can offer. initially, you might get some rough treatment and nasty looks from the team, but they'll get accustomed to it. I play a warlord that has several power which allow another PC to take some sort of action. I've once been refused on the Knight's Move, but the player was quick to say that the PC would rather risk death to maintain flanking than move away from his spot. several times i've had a player complain that they didn't want to move when i used Knight's Move. All I could say was, "the warlord allows you to take a move action as a free action right now; he didn't tell you where to move!" anyway, stick with it. Your bard casts his own spells and no one gets to consult on it to ensure the little game of chess plays out perfectly.
#3 t_stalker Oct 06, 2010 8:03:56	Well: Mutiny. How dare I decide such things on my own?! I'm breaking up team unity! Now we'll lose because of me! Well, yes, I can imagine it can be very annoying for a player if someone else suddenly gets to decide some of the 'actions' of their character. Especially if they are the types of people that need 3 minutes to decide upon the optimal position when a Slide 1 occurs. Now all their 'carefully laid out plans' go to waste, because of a "so called ally". (Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side, I'm just presenting their viewpoint.) 2.) Despite all their unbelievable chickenshit caution, ALL of their characters have died once already, whereas I, who actually think about what I'm going to do on my turn BEFORE my turn happens, have rarely even been bloodied. Here I think you are totally in the wrong, you are a leader, a RANGED leader. Ofcourse you're not getting bloodied, you're mainly staying far away from any pointy things inthe battle. This is what annoyed me about most players who play arcane powered characters in my group. Player X: "Oooh, I'm so great, I only lost Y hp." Me: "You're right, next time, I'm gonna act just like you." Next fight: My Warlord made sure to stand behind the Warlock and just threw daggers or rocks at the monsters. Guess how that turned out. 3.) I'm the only Leader. Seems like "Leader" actually means I get to make some sort of unilateral decisions and not just heal them when they inevitably screw up from overthinking everything. No, you're only The Leader because that name sounds better the The Healer/Booster/Mini-Controller. Playing a Leader role does not automatically grant you leader priviledges like you see in the movies. However, it's your power and that you do have full control over. 4.) DM is thinking of instituting a 60-second limit for decisionmaking on what you'll do during your turn.  I agree with him. Great idea! IMHO, combat takes way too long in 4e anyway, even when you make sure your own turn takes no longer then 20 secs.
#4 thomasjtheobald Oct 06, 2010 8:06:24	Your power, your decision.  It's forced movement, so rock on ).   T
#5 Kaganfindel Oct 06, 2010 10:14:21	Leader is your role; it's not your rank.  If you're going to choose the destination of the slide without considering where they'd like their characters to be, which is, strictly speaking, your right, consider presenting it as an option they can take or leave.  The way you've presented it to us leads me to believe that it has started to develop into an out-of-character power struggle, and that's not a fun way to play.  It's your power, but it moves their characters.  That's sort of a gray area.  Ithe DM's characters were to do it to them, they'd get a saving throw to negate it, so it does warrant a by-your-leave.  If you're doing it in the interest of saving time, asking if they'd like you to slide them to *there* offers them an option.  Don't wait too long for an answer.  Let them know up front that the point is to speed the game up, so if the proposed slide isn't instantly recognizable as a favorable spot, you're going to offer it to the next person in line, and if the whole process takes more than half a minute or so you're just going to exercise the option not to slide anyone that turn.
#6 rothe Oct 06, 2010 11:22:01	Leader is your role; it's not your rank.  If you're going to choose the destination of the slide without considering where they'd like their characters to be, which is, strictly speaking, your right, consider presenting it as an option they can take or leave.  The way you've presented it to us leads me to believe that it has started to develop into an out-of-character power struggle, and that's not a fun way to play.  It's your power, but it moves their characters.  That's sort of a gray area.  Ithe DM's characters were to do it to them, they'd get a saving throw to negate it, so it does warrant a by-your-leave.  If you're doing it in the interest of saving time, asking if they'd like you to slide them to *there* offers them an option.  Don't wait too long for an answer.  Let them know up front that the point is to speed the game up, so if the proposed slide isn't instantly recognizable as a favorable spot, you're going to offer it to the next person in line, and if the whole process takes more than half a minute or so you're just going to exercise the option not to slide anyone that turn. Actually, forced movement does not give a saving throw by default even if an NPC does it. It only does that if you try to force someone into hindering terrain. I think that as the bard's player, you are within your rights to move the others as long as you are considerate. Remember that those PC's will consider you a true ally only as long as you "play along". Avoid putting them into obvious hazard spots and you should be fine.
#7 salla Oct 06, 2010 11:26:58	I'd probably take a different tack.  Unless there's some horribly obvious reason to slide someone a particular way (which I would do on my own), I'd look at him and say 'Slide 2.  Where you wanna go? You got 30 seconds', or whatever you consider a reasonable timeframe to be.  When the time expires, you slide him (or, optionally, just leave him).
#8 purechance Oct 06, 2010 14:48:09	I would go with the suggestion approach as well.  I now slide you two, does here seem alright?  On the other hand my DM is also quite strict about the fact that its my character doing the sliding not them shifting, so often if the players are all telling me where to slide them and telling me different directions he steps in and says that its not a shift, or makes them burn their immediate interrupt to speak to the bard before the bard slides...
#9 harsgault Oct 06, 2010 14:59:14	I'd probably take a different tack.  Unless there's some horribly obvious reason to slide someone a particular way (which I would do on my own), I'd look at him and say 'Slide 2.  Where you wanna go? You got 30 seconds', or whatever you consider a reasonable timeframe to be.  When the time expires, you slide him (or, optionally, just leave him). ^^This^^ No need for a full war-council with the other players, no need to anger a given player by sliding them out of a position they were happy with already.  Just let the target know s/he can slide X squares and move on.  If the other players get uppity about not being able to discuss things, then the DM can impose a new rule.  If anyone gives the slide' advice, the DM gets to slide the offending player's character an equal distance. . .  That should shut them up.
#10 rian_king Oct 06, 2010 16:08:18	Your players should know what they want to happen before your turn. Maybe a a min of discussion about it and it should be done. Hell most of the time the entire group should already know where they want other players to be. I wouldn't however say I am moving you and you can't tell me where you want to be. That will cause more trouble
#11 Pashalik_Mons Oct 06, 2010 17:17:15	I'd probably take a different tack.  Unless there's some horribly obvious reason to slide someone a particular way (which I would do on my own), I'd look at him and say 'Slide 2.  Where you wanna go? You got 30 seconds', or whatever you consider a reasonable timeframe to be.  When the time expires, you slide him (or, optionally, just leave him). ^^This^^ No need for a full war-council with the other players, no need to anger a given player by sliding them out of a position they were happy with already.  Just let the target know s/he can slide X squares and move on.  If the other players get uppity about not being able to discuss things, then the DM can impose a new rule.  If anyone gives the slide' advice, the DM gets to slide the offending player's character an equal distance. . .  That should shut them up. ^^ These ^^
#42 drekkan85 Oct 19, 2010 9:03:51	To be honest, as someone who LARPs, every other weekend me and about 15 other people go into a woods and do pretty much exactly that.  Even when getting attacked by creatures making A LOT of noise (and often we do have recordings playing as well), reacting to blows which physically hurt as well as in our imaginations, thinking tactically, worrying about our friends getting nommed by demons...even then, calling damage, reciting spell verbals, and shouting advice to players or asking for or giving assistnace, such as a spell to help them get into their desired position, isn't that difficult. 1) As someone else who's larped I can say that the sounds of larping will inevitably be less chaotic and less noisy then actual battle, what with hard and honed steel echoing off of other hard, plated steel. 2) I highly doubt you're moving at the same speed, as the game turn is meant to explain/represent. You can get quite a lot of useful talking done in not much time.  Not EVERYTHING gets through, occassionally someone loses an arm and goes, 'I shouted for a repair/heal but you didn't hear', but generally speaking 'Flank me with [player character] on that demon!'  'Off you go' isn't that difficult or slow to sort out, even under attack.  Even that scenario with a 'no, not there, left!' 'oops, sorry' added on has been done.  Characters are trained heroes; if fifteen nerds who pretend to be elves on their days off can do it, five hardened and highly-trained, highly specialised heroes who know each other and their fighting styles well can DEFINITELY pull it off.  Especially if it's only one character only calling one effect. You somewhat prove my point, "Flank me with Drekkan on Demon" - 6 words. "Heal me, I'm near death" - 5 words. These are things that can be communicated. Tactical planning of the sort this meta is contemplating is taking a birds eye view (step one, your character would have a MUCH harder time judging precise distance in that particular manner), and then calibrating, and discussing precisely where to be put. Again - "Send me on it's flank!" is perfectly fine (in my book) as something the player being slid could yell out. Quick, easy to understand... and under 6 words. Anything worth getting out can be gotten out in 6 words, you just have to choose them well and be ready to use them. That said, when you're not physically being your character and the perspective is now a bird's-eye view, a little bit of extra discussion time is totally acceptable, because the disconnect means it's necessary to think a bit differently - it can't be an instant in-character instinctive reaction, so a little bit of thinking and discussion is fair enough.  Also, none of us as players are hardened and highly trained, highly specialised heroes who act in all things as an efficient and formidable team.  The extra time is a compensation for this. While spending ten minutes on one five-foot slide is excessive and does break flow horribly, a brief conference is fair enough.  a one-minute turn limit is fair; six words is not. Note - I'm not saying each player should have 6 seconds to choose their actions. I KNOW they're not battle hardened and trained. I am saying that conversation between players IS excessive. Take time to plan your turn, sure, but having a debate about where to slide a guy isn't kosher. *** Ahrimon - I know I know, I focus too much on realism in some cases. That said, "Heal the tank" "Focus on X" - all under 6 words and easy to say. As for the strategizing RP from before fights - sure, I'd even give a little time before a combat to quickly say "we had something like a plan for this circumstance". That said, no plan survives contact with the enemy, so mid-combat planning... not so much. Also a note - perhaps the rule was misunderstood. It's not "You get 6 words to say what you're doing". It's that your character gets 6 words out loud - and if you want more you can burn a minor/move/standard.