Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 secher_nbiw45 Apr 25, 2009 5:47:13	I caught one of the guys I play fudging his die roll at our Friday night game. This is at least the second time I've seen him do this, and Im pretty sure no one else has. If this was someone from my other group, with whom Ive played for years, I would call him out, but I have only been playing with this group for a few months. Aside from these instances of cheating, he is a great gamer; knows the rules, always prepared, and roleplays well. Should I ignore the roll-changing and hope it doesnt happen again? Send him a message telling him I saw him cheating? Not quite sure where to go here, what would you do?
#2 Kerrus Apr 25, 2009 7:17:56	Definitely mention it to him- you don't have to call him out at the table or anything, but in my experience when people fudge, and get away with it, it bolsters their confidence to fudge again. One fudge becomes many, and it is with some degree of shame that I speak from a bit of personal experience. Years and years ago, I used to fudge rolls, and until someone caught me on it, I thought it was perfectly okay. If this guy is operating under similar parameters, he's probably not thinking of it as cheating, or doing it every single instance he can. That sort of player can still be salvagable, and if you discuss it with him to any extent it should help him as a player. Crit fails can be fun, even if they're bad for your character, all and all. Calling him out at the table is something that should realistically not happen, but I've done it when there's a compulsive cheater fudging rolls. The Rolls for Effect guy, when privately approaching him or the DM seems to have no effect.
#3 Mechalibur Apr 25, 2009 7:43:57	How exactly is he fudging them? Is he rolling where no one can see him? If that's the case maybe you should all be rolling at the same table. Or is he doing something else?
#4 Man_in_the_Funny_Hat Apr 25, 2009 9:03:12	If it genuinely bothers you then talk to him about it - in private. If his response then fails to satisfy you tell the DM - in private - that a player is cheating his rolls but do not mention names unless absolutely necessary. While this is not at all inconsequential it isn't the same as cheating at cards. If his cheating rolls is not actually causing issues in the game the only one really being cheated is himself. If it bothers YOU then that's something else entirely and it needs to be addressed. If you find it difficult to broach the subject with either the cheater or DM in private then you might find it easy to simply bring it up in casual game conversation: "Say guys, how do you all feel about cheating on die rolls?" The expected response, of course, is, "Oh gosh that's horrible for someone to do!" Even from the cheater. If that then doesn't cure it you'll have to proceed further. Don't make it a big, public scene naming names unless you have exhausted other avenues of satisfaction.
#5 secher_nbiw45 Apr 25, 2009 16:13:03	After he rolls, he'll just tip the die over to a better number. We dont have a huge table, so he and I share a little folding table to roll on. He doesnt do it a lot, Ive seen him roll his share of 1s, and it hasnt been game breaking when when he does fudge. I am a little concerned that what Kerrus said could happen, that its easy to let the occasional fudge become many. I dont want to make a scene, and I dont know how much it bothers me; as long as it doesnt happen often, and doesnt change the game, should I bother? Maybe if I catch it agian I'll give him some friendly teasing, just to let him know I saw him.
#6 vinius Apr 25, 2009 23:56:23	Another option, since you're new to the group, would be to mention it in passing to the DM that he may want to watch the player's rolls a little more closely. For me, it would depend on how often it's happening. Once a night is no big deal. Once an encounter is a bigger deal.
#7 secher_nbiw45 Apr 26, 2009 0:12:15	Yeah, thats crossed my mind, Vinius, 'specially since the GM is his fiancee. Get her to crack the whip on him :evillaugh
#8 lazzo Apr 26, 2009 7:49:07	One trick you can try that might make him stop and not loose face too badly. If you see him fudge, act like you think he did it as a joke and that he ment for you to see it. Go like ha ha thats clever, turning the die you cheeky git.
#9 ciaran Apr 26, 2009 11:09:17	I know the feeling. That sucks. If you catch his eye right after he does it, give him a crooked look or something. He must believe that no one is looking and that should change.
#10 Krusk Apr 26, 2009 19:04:35	I think my first reaction would be to find out how the group feels about cheating. Right before the start of the next session something along these lines "Hey guys, before we start today, as the new guy to the group, I had a question. How do we feel about cheating on die rolls? I've seen it happening and if the common consensus is that no one cares I can ignore it, but usually in my normal group we call it out, or even kick the player. I just want to know where we all stand, and can go either way." Maybe even just ask the DM in private before or after a session. Another interesting option you could take, since the two of you share a table, would be to reverse cheat. Everytime you notice the player roll a 1 and flip it, give a crooked look but don't say anything. Make sure the player sees all your die rolls, but for everytime they flip a 1 to something else, you flip one of your 20's off. Or just flip whatever you roll to a 1. Then throw the weird look again. If asked, just explain you are trying to counter balance their awsome rolls for the night.
#11 Rartemass Apr 26, 2009 20:43:53	You could try incorporating it into the game itself. Lets say you're attacking the same target, and your character has less initiative. If you miss you could say that your character missed because he/she was distracted by the other character's blow. You were sure it was about to miss but at the last second the blade hand twisted and actually struck home. You were dumbfounded at the skill of your fellow adventurer. It is more obvious to all those at the table, but you have made light of the situation and possibly increased the enjoyment of the encounter. The player that fudged knows you saw him and are not entirely happy, but you didn't let it ruin the session. I've done this as DM when I notice players fudging. I allow the fudged roll to stand but explain it away in-game. Either that or simply ask "what is your attack bonus again?" Then when they answer (say +15) I say "so how does 4 (dice roll) plus 15 defeat AC 23?" Most people will look at their sheet for the missing bonuses; or say something like "didn't I roll a 14?" They don't usually admit that they fudged the roll, just that they must have made a mistake, or their math is bad (if they missed by less than 3). One thing to realise though is that a single fudged roll won't really change that much. The creature is generally designed to be killed and the characters to win. Unless there is a specific story element as to why the creature would win, and if that's the case a good DM will make arrangements for that to happen regardless of a single fudged roll. I have never let a critical story element to come down to character or creature rolls. I've made it look like it, but have always planned on the situation happening regardless. 4th Ed has tried to do away with any 'pass a single roll or fail' challenges. Failing once doesn't mean as much anymore so fudging isn't really needed. You'll find that players that started with 2nd or 3rd ed will generally fudge more (from my experience) as they had to do it at times or die. If 4th Ed is the first RPG of the player, they generally won't fudge.
#12 etarnon Apr 26, 2009 21:15:54	I would take one of the following options: Tell the DM, in private. Talk to the guy in private. If the first two don't solve it, when he rolls the die, snatch it up from him, and exclaim "Wow! 20! Nat 20!" Then casuallly toss it at him, and demand he confess. That or leave.
#13 Thyrwyn Apr 26, 2009 23:05:16	The DM is his fiancee? Don't ever mention it. Not ever. Not to the player, not the DM. It will not end well. (this is assuming you have only known these people for the couple of months you have been gaming with them). Let it go - it is not that big of a deal. The potential downside far outweighs any potential gain (which would be. . . what?) If it really bothers you, sit somewhere else.
#14 roztov Apr 27, 2009 4:40:32	The next time he does it, hammer the dice into his forehead, thereby embossing the number he should have rolled into his skin (albeit in reverse). Seriously though, I wouldn't say anything to anyone, he'll get caught eventually and no one likes a snitch!
#15 ostracized Apr 27, 2009 18:43:46	Best advice is to (as another guy said) act as if it was a mistake or a joke. Next time it happens, correct him. Ex. He rolls a 12, then tips it and says its a 17. Speak up and say "actually it was a 12, I accidently bumped the table I think and it flipped over" See if this stops him for a bit. After a few weeks when he does it again start to blame him. "You accidently flicked it when you reached for the pencil. It was resting halfway on the board and it rolled back off when you bumped the board moving your character" this gives him an out... but lets him remember in the back of his brain that someone is watching.
#16 volcanon2 Apr 27, 2009 18:48:12	Do you play in a game where rolling a 1 involves lethal buffonery? Whenever I rolled a 1 in a game with critical failures, I'd say I got a 3 or something. But that's only if the DM does jerkery like "oh you eldritch blasted yourself for 12... oh you're dead now? Now the skeleton coup de gras's you and you die".
#17 Maxperson Apr 27, 2009 19:19:18	After he rolls, he'll just tip the die over to a better number. We dont have a huge table, so he and I share a little folding table to roll on. He doesnt do it a lot, Ive seen him roll his share of 1s, and it hasnt been game breaking when when he does fudge. I am a little concerned that what Kerrus said could happen, that its easy to let the occasional fudge become many. I dont want to make a scene, and I dont know how much it bothers me; as long as it doesnt happen often, and doesnt change the game, should I bother? Maybe if I catch it agian I'll give him some friendly teasing, just to let him know I saw him. Talk to him in private about it, and let him know nicely that cheating is inappropriate and see what he says. If he doesn't seem to want to agree to stop, or you catch him later, go to the DM. Beyond that, there's really little you can do.
#18 secher_nbiw45 Apr 27, 2009 19:43:22	Since the Gm is his better half (literally), I'm leery of bringing it up with her; I dont want to end uo in the middle of some relationship BS. As fun as it would be to force that d20 up his nose, I may go another way. Krusk has a very interesting idea of balancing out his fudges with my own. I think if I do this and throw him a funny look everytime, maybe he'll catch on. Thyrwyn does make a good point- its not really that big a deal, and if it comes down to me playing and putting up with it once every few weeks, or not playing, Id rather play. Though if I can put the idea in the back of his head that someone is watching, just to keep him fairly honest, I will. Thanks all.
#19 Maxperson Apr 28, 2009 0:51:36	Since the Gm is his better half (literally), I'm leery of bringing it up with her; I dont want to end uo in the middle of some relationship BS. Then you have a serious problem. If you go to him, he might go to his better half. If you go to her, then you might be causing problems. There is the possibility that he doesn't want her to know, and will shape up to keep that from happening, but be very careful not to put it in blackmail or threat terms. Anyway, I wish you the best of luck.
#20 jimprofit Apr 28, 2009 0:52:38	I have no problem with cheating unless it effects me. He's probably helping me, so let him cheat. God. It's like people lose their basic common sense at the gaming table lol! I saw this topic and the "waaah i killed a baby dragon!" Good! Dragons suck and kill you! Better you then it! I need to make a book. Beyond Good and Evil Alignment: Nietzsche's Dungeon Crawling Guide...:P
#21 Revenant07 Apr 28, 2009 1:24:12	Do you play at Eagle's gaming room?
#22 Maxperson Apr 28, 2009 10:40:07	I have no problem with cheating unless it effects me. That's just it. It DOES affect you. It affects everyone at the table. It throws off the game. Changes the roleplaying. All the circumstances change when a failed roll becomes a success at the cheater's whim.
#23 Electricbee Apr 28, 2009 12:18:49	You can always try the bit of doing it too. Be obvious about it and get caught. When confronted just say you'd seen it done at the table and figured that was how this group played. You don't have to play that way, just figured since you'd seen it a few times that was how this group played. I usually DM and I used to have a player who would roll dice repeatedly when not necessary and then want to keep the good roll for his next action when eventually he did roll well. He didn't want to play that way anymore after a monster critted on him 4 times in a row.
#24 Maxperson Apr 28, 2009 12:39:17	You can always try the bit of doing it too. Be obvious about it and get caught. When confronted just say you'd seen it done at the table and figured that was how this group played. You don't have to play that way, just figured since you'd seen it a few times that was how this group played. I would not follow this advice, ever. Once branded a cheater, it's almost impossible to be rid of that stigma. There's a very good chance that they won't believe you when you tell them you've seen it, or even if they do, there could be that nagging doubt. Best to not even go there.
#25 chipll Apr 28, 2009 13:55:10	When this happened to me I started calling all the players rolls before they had a chance, as though I was just really excited. They soon got the hint.
#26 Electricbee Apr 28, 2009 14:12:49	I don't think anyone would risk getting a reputation from obviously shifting a die to a higher number and then stating that they thought that is how things were done at this table. If i wanted to be really brazen i would roll the die so that it landed closest to the cheater and ask him to 'tip that to the 17'. I don't think people are cheating at monopoly when they want some cash for landing on free parking. I just see it as an opportunity to draw the groups attention to dice rolling without singling out the cheater ... with potential to make the game a little fairer for all involved.
#27 Maxperson Apr 28, 2009 14:20:32	When this happened to me I started calling all the players rolls before they had a chance, as though I was just really excited. They soon got the hint. Heh. Nice one.
#28 Maxperson Apr 28, 2009 14:24:28	I don't think anyone would risk getting a reputation from obviously shifting a die to a higher number and then stating that they thought that is how things were done at this table. I do. Unless it's something similar to what you post below. If i wanted to be really brazen i would roll the die so that it landed closest to the cheater and ask him to 'tip that to the 17'. This is not a good idea. The whole point is to avoid this sort of confrontation in front of everyone. Especially since the person involved is the significant other of the DM. I just see it as an opportunity to draw the groups attention to dice rolling without singling out the cheater ... with potential to make the game a little fairer for all involved. It fails at that, though. If the person says "I thought this was how it's done at this table.", everyone else is going to ask why, and not let it drop until they get an answer that is reasonable. Rolling the die to the person and asking him to tip it is even more blatant. OP needs to be subtle about this and talk to the person privately.
#29 Electricbee Apr 28, 2009 16:09:11	I guess I'm just not afraid to use this as a 'maybe this isn't the right group for me' kind of moment. I'm the type who will call things out and let them settle. Especially after a only a few months, i'm willing to ruffle a few feathers to figure out if this is the group for me or not.