Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mysticbelmont Jan 16, 2011 15:20:30	The player in question does not pick out powers, feats or items. Than complains when her character is behind the curve of everyone else. At first, I cared and tried to help out.  I have tried to help her out, but every time she brushes me off, almost making a joke out of her character not being good.
#2 salla Jan 16, 2011 15:22:16	You can't help people who won't let you help them.  Nothing you can do but let her suffer with her incomplete character.
#3 dybrarh Jan 16, 2011 15:52:21	Nothing you can do but let her suffer with her incomplete character. This stops being true when a character who not only can't, but refuses to pull his/her weight drags the party as a whole down, at which point it very much becomes a matter of "shape up or ship out" in my mind. People are, of course, largely allowed to play whatever characters they want to, but only as long as they're willing to contribute to the game – and D&D (especially 4E) being what it is, foregoing feats, items and powers renders a character as good as useless in just about any combat situation, and considerably less able to contribute outside of combat. As a DM this definitely wouldn't fly with me, and as a player I would not want that kind of thing to go unaddressed either.
#4 salla Jan 16, 2011 16:01:13	Nothing you can do but let her suffer with her incomplete character. This stops being true when a character who not only can't, but refuses to pull his/her weight drags the party as a whole down, at which point it very much becomes a matter of "shape up or ship out" in my mind. People are, of course, largely allowed to play whatever characters they want to, but only as long as they're willing to contribute to the game – and D&D (especially 4E) being what it is, foregoing feats, items and powers renders a character as good as useless in just about any combat situation, and considerably less able to contribute outside of combat. As a DM this definitely wouldn't fly with me, and as a player I would not want that kind of thing to go unaddressed either. True, but one would hope at some point the DM would either step in and see if she even wants to be there, or just not consider her character when balancing encounters.
#5 ChrisSteele Jan 16, 2011 16:24:14	Nothing you can do but let her suffer with her incomplete character. This stops being true when a character who not only can't, but refuses to pull his/her weight drags the party as a whole down, at which point it very much becomes a matter of "shape up or ship out" in my mind. People are, of course, largely allowed to play whatever characters they want to, but only as long as they're willing to contribute to the game – and D&D (especially 4E) being what it is, foregoing feats, items and powers renders a character as good as useless in just about any combat situation, and considerably less able to contribute outside of combat. As a DM this definitely wouldn't fly with me, and as a player I would not want that kind of thing to go unaddressed either. As a DM I don't mind this kind of player at all (although I used to).  As long as _she's_ having fun it's easy to take that fun and spread it to the table.  Some examples... I DM a private game and several public games.  In my private group and in about a third of my public groups I have players that just couldn't care less about the combat aspect of their character.  To them they read the power name and that's all.  Then ask me if they can use the power in a certain way.  And, I say, YEP!  "Daily Power: Foe to Friend",  "Can I turn one of the undead minion gauntlets into my friend?"  YEP!  Granted, I told him straight up he'd have to roll 18+, but he crited it and an artifact was born.  Laughter all around and he was giddy because I gave him a +5 vs Ref, 1d4+3 minor action encounter power (that he paid no attention to stat wise - he just wanted to know when his gauntlet could attack again).   Another player of mine has one of the best magic weapons in our game.  He decides to pour water on the salt golem instead of swing at it.  Works for me, by pure coincidence (not really) the hit and damage numbers are remarkably smilier to the weapon.  What do I care what the narrative is, I'm certainly not going to penalize them for creativity. Specifically in your case, she doesn't seem to want to make her character better.  Back in the 1st ed days, there were a lot of randomly rolled BAD characters.  The advise was to find a way to make your character fun.  As a DM, in this situation, you do need to account for the fact that she's not going to count as a full member in combat.  Adjust things accordingly.  If you have 5 people, then make encounters geared for 4 (or 4.5).  Play up the misses, play up that she's always unconscious.  "And...making her 5 death save of the day...I give you {insert name here}"  If/when she decides to pick feats and powers, paint the picture of a training montage where her character can be found hitting the books and training against trees. D&D4e is not a math game.  It's not a tactics game.  It's a role playing game.  The DM's job is to make things fun for your players.  And if you don't have a table of all power gamers, you can't be a power DM.  Also, keep in mind your monsters are probably less likely to attack the character that isn't doing much - so you really don't need to penalize the group by always requiring them to heal her.  You can play that up too.  "The bugbear looks at you for a moment and realizes, with the way you're holding your sword, you're likely to miss him anyway, so he swings for the other guy that is likely to really hurt him."  Then if she does hit - I promise it'll feel good all around the table.
#6 Krusk Jan 16, 2011 18:58:37	Reminds me of one of my friends a bit back. We were on session 5 or so of a DND game, and my other buddy was DMing. Halfway through the session, he leaves and tells someone else to NPC him in combat while he goes to the bathroom/gets food/whatever. At this point we realize his level 14 sorcerer's character sheet has two words written on it. On the second page. He wrote "Stick Mastery" under feats. We still have no idea what he meant by this, or where he was getting numbers/spells/defenses from. After combat we made him do a real character. As for your situation, simply tell the player that without a complete character sheet they can't come to anymore sessions. Be firm on it, and say "This is the minimum we are asking of you, and it really isn't much work."
#7 -hyphen- Jan 16, 2011 20:58:03	Since you're not running a business but a hobby, saying "shape up or ship out" could just prompt the player in question to say "I'm shipping out". Here's my suggestion: Ask her to try it your way for just one session, maybe even just one encounter. If the current character is beyond hope, ask her to try a complete one out for one quick encounter to see what it's like to have a character whose powers, feats and items are all picked out. If she doesn't go for that, you could try to change encounters around to give special treatment for her character. It could be crazy annoying for your DM, but there it is. My question: Do you get together to do a bunch of one-shots, or are you participating in a long-term campaign? If it's just one-shots you could have everybody change around all of their characters so she's forced to choose another one. If you're facing an entire adventure, then all you can do is complete the adventure as quickly as possible so the dead-weight-effect ends faster. You also need to examine her willingness to be there at all. Do you know if she participates in other games? If so, does she contribute more to those games than to yours? This entire "problem" could revolve around the fact that she doesn't have any interest in being in the party.
#8 CCS Jan 17, 2011 0:18:02	Reminds me of one of my friends a bit back. We were on session 5 or so of a DND game, and my other buddy was DMing. Halfway through the session, he leaves and tells someone else to NPC him in combat while he goes to the bathroom/gets food/whatever. At this point we realize his level 14 sorcerer's character sheet has two words written on it. On the second page. He wrote "Stick Mastery" under feats. We still have no idea what he meant by this, or where he was getting numbers/spells/defenses from. After combat we made him do a real character. LOL.  That's hilarious. Anyways in 3x/Pathfinder/4e games I tend to be a few #s/feats/powers off.  We'll play, we'll get XP & level up, & in the interviening 7 days til the next game?  I'll have forgotten to do the paperwork. Sometimes I'll catch it & fix it just before the game.  Sometimes I'll notice during the game.  In wich case anything "new" I use gets a note written in the margin with a date - so I can (presumably) update the sheet later.   Sometimes a week or three will pass with me not enjoying the full modifiers I should have. Very rarely does anyone else notice (even the DM) - afterall, I could've spent those skill pts/feats on something that just hasn't come up yet.... What'll often tip me off is my HP total seeming low. My solution?  The 1st Monday of each month I audit my character sheets. I've never once complained about my own effectiveness.  Why would I?  Any deficiencies are due to my own shoddy paperwork. I know why this problem occurs too.  It's because I'm not a huge fan of the paperwork heavy style of characters spawned by 3x & 4e.  I'm especially not in love with 4e & having to keep track of all the power/item cards.
#9 anticlimax Jan 17, 2011 1:18:28	At first, I cared and tried to help out.  I have tried to help her out, but every time she brushes me off, almost making a joke out of her character not being good. yeah, that's pretty common. there's a type of player who, no matter what the game or activity, will be bitter about not being instinctively the greatest at it, but who will also refuse to change anything. from my experience these players are just problems in general. in any other game or sport, coaches and teammates wouldn't tolerate a player who does that. they're better off not playing at all.
#10 Pashalik_Mons Jan 17, 2011 1:21:45	D&D4e is not a math game.  It's not a tactics game.  It's a role playing game.  The DM's job is to make things fun for your players.  And if you don't have a table of all power gamers, you can't be a power DM. This is true, but there are certain limits.  Playing a not-optimal race/class combo because it strikes you as cool, or picking a bunch of feats that do little for effectiveness but add RP value is fine.  That sort of player is still engaged in the game. From the sounds of it, this player doesn't have a finished character and doesn't want one.  I think if you're going to play a game, it shouldn't be too much to ask that you actually play the game.  To top it off, she purposefully makes a weaker character, and then complains when she has a weaker character.  If the OP is seriously bothered by this, and especially if he's not alone in being bothered by her behavior, then I think he should change tactics from trying to help her build a better character to asking why she doesn't want to participate and telling her that creating situations to complain about is not cool.