Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fey_feline Aug 11, 2009 14:32:10	I'm tired of all these edition wars. I'm all for 4E, but it's all I've ever played. I want to see how perfect 3.5 really is. What books will I need? What books should I want? What should you warn me about? What should I avoid at all costs?
#2 i_roll_ones Aug 11, 2009 14:43:23	I suggest starting off with the core 3. That means, Monster Manual, Player's Handbook, and Dungeon Master's Guide. Look at Amazon or any other online book to make sure you get the right edition, or any other online book store with pictures. Basically, if it looks like someone tried to make a magical looking book out of clay, took a photo of it and slapped it onto the book, its the right edition for you. Wanting is more difficult. There are A LOT. Some books, like psionics or Tome of Battle change the game a lot. Others give you more options. Many will give more options and someone's eyes will light up with demonic glee as they figure out how to abuse some rule. The Complete series offer some fun things, some pretty silly things, and some things your party won't like. So, before you rush out and buy a ton of books, see what THEY want to play, and if it is compatible with your desires for a game. Warning? Any character named Pun-Pun(Consider banning non-standard races or Forgotten Realms material at first, even), CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid zillia) and mage tomfoolery. Have every character run their expected character path by you, and tell you if they deviate from it. Look at the 3e CharOp boards for common tricks. Cherry picking, or a few levels in many classes, will not be your friend, especially if a non-melee build. No material in the right DMs hands will be awful, except that one ability from FR. Book of Vile Hatred and Book of Exalted Deeds can probably be passed over, in my opinion, unless you have a lot of Blackguards/Assassins. My advice is to work up slowly. Get the first three, then gradually buy one more book as you get comfortable with the material, taking time to read them and learn the rules and tricks.
#3 slobo777a Aug 11, 2009 14:46:30	If you just want the rules, all you need is the 3.5 Players Handbook, which has important details about character generation. All the rest of the core rules are *FREE*, and go by the name of the SRD (Source Reference Documents). You can download the whole lot, completely legit, from Wizards: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
#4 fey_feline Aug 11, 2009 15:02:48	Thanks guys, keep it up! I've heard of Pun-Pun-horrifying stuff. I was looking towards more of a Player's view of things. What classes/races are out there? What are broken, if any? What are usually fun? Also, I'd like to hear some explanation of what makes 3.5 so good that people wont upgrade? I've heard the "4E is WoW" argument (totally false) but what makes 3.5 good?
#5 Aryxbez Aug 11, 2009 15:14:54	Jolly good, it's nice to see someone showing an open mind towards a good edition. I like both 3.5 and 4th edition, and I always felt others should get a chance to play both. Also, ye instead of Download, there's a site for the SRD here: http://www.d20srd.org/ What is needed: the 3 core; Players handbook, Dungeons Masters Guide, and the Monster Manual What ye want, I can't really say, any Complete X, books are nice, and can choose the ones according to your favorite type of characters. I personally prefer Martial types, even if they're not all that grand in 3.5. So I would suggest, Tome of Battle, Complete Warrior, and the Players Handbook 2, it has some nice new stuff in there as well. Things to be warned about, spellcaster classes are basically superior than the non casters (although the Rogue is fairly balanced/decent class). Druids are easily one of the best classes in the game, taking little effort to be such. Also another warning: High Levels get a bit wonky, after about 11th level or so, especially around 16th level, things get pretty one sided swiftly. Avoid: High Level adjustment Monster races, they're not balanced for the most part, as they'll pretty much end up being too frail/underpowered for someone of their level, in comparison to other party members. There's also a feat, (I've forgotten it's name these days) for divine casters, that allows them to instead of a metamagic feat taking higher level spell slots, just takes away turning undead per days. Then combo with a magic item called "nightsticks" (either in complete divine, libris mortis (a book on undead) ) which gives them more turning, then a metamagic feat called: Persistent spell. Allows a spell to go for 24 hours, so ye can have a cleric, with his buff like spells on all day. Anyways, I like 3.5, it's a good RPG after all, so I hope some of the things I've mentioned have helped thee. Didn't do all that grand at it I feel, or at least, compared to some of the other DM's I've heard out there. Of course, I suppose it was my preference to not using spellcaster types.
#6 fey_feline Aug 11, 2009 16:04:41	Is there a class and races list?
#7 CCS Aug 11, 2009 16:19:19	Past the obvious 3 (PHB1, DMG1, MM1) opinions will vary widely about what books you actually need. Here's what I'd consider my own shelf to be complete at: PHB1 DMG1 MM1 ----- Magic Item Compendium Spell Compendium ----- The Draconomicon - A book about dragons? Seems like a good thing to have on a Dungeons & Dragons shelf.... Dungeonscape - Hmm, Dungeons... see the above comment, but this book is really of mediocre use. Still... The Rules Compendium - collects misc rules, erratta, etc all into one easy to search place. Not essential, but very handy. Beyond this? MM volumes of the various sorts. You can never have too many monsters.... Though the MM series itself gets a bit weak at vol.3+ If you want adventures? Definitely look into picking up Red Hand of Doom & the various Expedition to ____ modules. My one regret is that WoTC never published any collected Feat Compendiums towards the end of 3.5
#8 i_roll_ones Aug 11, 2009 16:20:38	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists I think this is as close to a class/race list as you'll get. It's a good tool, regardless.
#9 wraithstrike Aug 11, 2009 17:30:16	I'm tired of all these edition wars. I'm all for 4E, but it's all I've ever played. I want to see how perfect 3.5 really is. What books will I need? What books should I want? What should you warn me about? What should I avoid at all costs? Disclaimer: I have not read past the first post, and I am doing this from memory. I prefer 3.X, but I will also be the first to tell you that it is not perfect. I can't even say it is better than 4th. Once people realize neither system is better maybe the edition wars will end. Which system you play or play the most is a matter of preference Mostly everything you will need is in the SRD. If you really want a book you can try an FLGS or Ebay. A lot of people complain about balance, but most of these people have someone in the group that does not view it as a team oriented exercise, but as a way to hog the spot light and intentionally make more powerful characters then the other players. I like the fact that my in 3.5 my imagination limits my power level. In 4th the cap is placed there for you. This is important because if a player comes to you saying can I do X, Y, and Z, and you say yes without paying attention he may begin to laugh at the encounters even if they are 4 or more levels above what he should be fighting. 4th edition does seem to be easier to catch on to as a new player, than 3.5, but if the experienced guy in 3.5 sees you struggling he should be more than happy to help you. That does not mean you have to take his advice, but he should offer his help. A lot of people have trouble with the grappling rules, but they are not so bad. The one thing I really hated was the cleric turning table, and how useless it becomes when the monster's HD get to high. As a new DM(to 3.5), dont let players have too much treasure/money. To much treasure, and they will walk all over any adventure you make. Don't allow Shivering Touch, also known as the dragon killer, or at least modify it so it is reasonable. Don't allow the splitting enhancement in any form. Speaking of Shivering Touch, a lot of people hate ability damage in 3.5 because of the math that has to be done, and when it goes away they get to return the character back to normal. I would bring an index card and used that for my less powerful character so I dont have to keep changing my character sheet. Energy Drain(level loss) was not fun either. I won't change over, because the only thing 4E does better than 3.5 is provide balance(security). You can't have security and freedom( to build the character exactly like you want it to be). That is not a knock against 4th edition. That is a fact. I dont worry about balance because I trust my gaming partners. If I can't trust the guys at my table to be reasonable with their characters then I won't game with them anyway. We don't watch hit point rolls, we don't monitor stat generation rolls. Nobody looks over the DM screen to ensure players rolled high enough to make a savings throws, etc. There are other reasons also, but basically I have not been given a reason to change. I am sure someone will tell you that spellcasters have the potential to own the game, but they have to survive to get that powerful, and at lower levels they don't own anything. Another thing about lower level is that it is to easy to die. That is one thing 4ed fixed. I hate first level characters. The coolest character IMHO is the monk, but it is also the character that does nothing. There are many threads on this subject. I am not saying a competent monk can't be made, but like making a competent fighter, you D&D-fu must be strong. PS: If I repeated anything I will blame it on lack of sleep. If you find my 4th edition comments offensive/incorrect I would rather you PM me. This edition war thing is old now.
#10 RPJesus Aug 11, 2009 17:44:41	What are usually fun? Psions Also, I'd like to hear some explanation of what makes 3.5 so good that people wont upgrade? I've heard the "4E is WoW" argument (totally false) but what makes 3.5 good? As a player of both, it seems to me that in 3.5 flavor dominated function, whereas in 4 the balance has shifted the other way. For example, if you wanted to make a class in 3.5, you could basically throw it's abilities on paper and you were good. In 4 on the other hand, you essentially fill out a worksheet; At-will 1, Name:______________, Target:____________, Attack:___________, Hit:_____________, etc. (Note: I'm not saying 4 lacks flavor, just that it places less emphasis on it than 3.5)
#11 doomsought Aug 11, 2009 20:17:05	crystal keep has the best SRD. Pretty much all of the humanoids and more. I've always found making characters to be fun with 3ed because there are so many options, for the most part you are free to fit just about any character concept. you want to sit back and with a wave of your hand or twinkle of your eye and watch your enemies kill each other you can do that, or if you want to bum rush your enemies and kill them by bludgeoning them with their comrades, there are many characters that have done that as well. Just remember, that character creation is pretty much half the game. you should have fun while doing it.
#12 Arcane_Guyver Aug 11, 2009 21:52:22	If you want to *learn* the 3e ruleset, I recommend picking up the Rules Compendium and the core rules.
#13 balmas Aug 11, 2009 22:46:28	If you want to learn 3.5, all you really need are the core three. However, the Complete series is useful, as are the Players Handbook II and the Tome of Battle. Get the Spell Compendium, and you should be set. Beware of somebody casting Polymorph Any Object twice.
#14 sirkaikillah Aug 11, 2009 22:49:45	If you want to *learn* the 3e ruleset, I recommend picking up the Rules Compendium and the core rules. That is good advice, the Rules Compendium is a great resource for anyone playing 3.5.
#15 morphling_89 Aug 11, 2009 23:28:17	Thanks guys, keep it up! I've heard of Pun-Pun-horrifying stuff. I was looking towards more of a Player's view of things. What classes/races are out there? What are broken, if any? What are usually fun? Also, I'd like to hear some explanation of what makes 3.5 so good that people wont upgrade? I've heard the "4E is WoW" argument (totally false) but what makes 3.5 good? 1. Classes: In the PHB there are 11 classes Bard Rogue Barbarian Fighter Monk Cleric Ranger Paladin Druid Wizard Sorcerer PHB II adds more cool and flavorful options Races (PHB): Humans Dwarves Elves Gnomes Half-Elfs Half-Orcs Halfling Other sources (infinity and beyond): www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf 2. In terms of class power, things are pretty balanced for the first 1-5 levels, then spellcasters become exponentially better. If you have Tome of Battle, however, a melee character like a Warblade can still be tons of fun and on the same power level. Could they win in a one-on-one fight against someone that can teleport or fly on a whim? Probably not, but that's irrelevant. Tiers for levels 6-20 are probably: Tier 1: Cleric Druid Wizard (most versatile, so power is great at level 20, but weaker early on) Tier 2: Sorcerer Tier 3: Bard Rogue (maybe Tier 4, dunno) Tier 4: Fighter Monk Padalin Ranger 3. Depends on the person. IMO some fun classes are: -Any spellcaster. You get to choose from thousands of spells! Ultimate versatility! -Psion. Slightly weaker than normal spellcasters, but great fun and incredibly versatile. Great flavor, great aoe damage dealing potential, and can often get around pesky spell resistance! -Warblade. Unless you wizard is doing crazy cheap metamagic stuff, the Warblade does more damage and has way more hit points and AC. Great tank character, and has lots of nice tricks up their sleeve! -Rogue. Fun both in battle and out. Skill monkey and sneak attack damage. Not that powerful, but IMO that's fine. 4. The reason I won't upgrade is because 3.5 has way more options. There are dozens of classes, hundreds of prestige classes, hundreds of races, thousands of spells and magic items. 4th edition is far more balanced, yes, but 3.5 will always suit my need for complexity. Also, playing a classic Batman Wizard is wayyy too fun as long as your DM makes appropriately challenging encounters. 5. BOOKS: Most important: PHB DMG MM Very cool: PHB II Tome of Battle Not critical, adds options: Spell Compendium Magic Item Compendium Psion Handbook Lesser Importance (don't need to get this): Other MMs, supplement books, ect. 6.Balance: A 3.5 DM needs to be wary, but don't abuse the banhammer. For a few spells/feats/ect that are wayyy too powerful (like Shivering touch - also known as Dragon Death), the DM should ban them. Classes don't need to be banned. Some Prestige classes (like Incantatrix) might, but most DMs won't have to deal with these obscure classes. Above all, 3.5 is a learning process. Assume things are innocent until proven guilty - it is easy to ban or modify something if/when it proves abusive. Also, encounters can easily be modified to provide greater challenge. Don't give players more gold or XP than they would normally get, however.
#16 fey_feline Aug 12, 2009 0:08:04	Thanks everybody. Are there rules for Githzrai? I have a character, but until the 4E PHB3, she's.... un-possible.
#17 wraithstrike Aug 12, 2009 0:42:24	Thanks everybody. Are there rules for Githzrai? I have a character, but until the 4E PHB3, she's.... un-possible. Both of the Gith races are in Monster Manual 1, and Expanded Psionics.
#18 fey_feline Aug 12, 2009 0:45:14	And the Monk? Where is that?
#19 i_roll_ones Aug 12, 2009 0:46:57	Monk is Player's Handbook. Consolidated lists (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists) can tell you were the classes, races, and feats come from.
#20 morphling_89 Aug 12, 2009 5:51:15	One piece of advice. Playing a melee class like Monk will probably seem like a big downgrade from 4th edition in battle - there just aren't that many options and your actions aren't that exciting. Playing a spellcaster would definitely seem like an upgrade from 4th edition. Playing a Warblade (Tome of Battle) will seem very familiar to 4th edition and would probably be the best transition.
#21 jutter Aug 12, 2009 7:13:21	I'm tired of all these edition wars. I'm all for 4E, but it's all I've ever played. I want to see how perfect 3.5 really is. What books will I need? What books should I want? What should you warn me about? What should I avoid at all costs? I wouldn't focus on books right now. WotC published over 100 books for 3rd edition. This edition has been around for 8 years and has a lot of options. As with everything, what is 'good' is a matter of taste. Find a 3rd edition group and join in. If you want to start your own group, get the core rule books or use www.d20srd.org. You can play a very good 3rd edition game with 'just' the core three.
#22 oxybe Aug 12, 2009 9:43:56	I'm tired of all these edition wars. I'm all for 4E, but it's all I've ever played. I want to see how perfect 3.5 really is. What books will I need? What books should I want? What should you warn me about? What should I avoid at all costs? check my sig for some free resources for 3rd ed. books needed: the core 3: PHB, DMG, MM (the monster manual isn't needed, per say, if you want to learn the rules, but is required if you want to GM or use any of the polymorph type spells). should want: Spell compendium - great caster only resource, contains spells from various source books in their errata'ed form and a few new ones too. Magic item Compendium - like the spell compendium, but for magic items Rules compendium - contains the errata and rules clarifications. i recommend at least one of these per 3rd ed group warning: -don't expect a balanced gaming experience. the game has a few quirks that might not be overtly obvious and can spring up. experienced groups have their own work-arounds or houserules to these problems. -most of the cool tricks are the purview of the casters due to large spell lists. clerics, druids, wizards, sorcerers and the bard tend to have more options available to them due their spell lists. -low level characters in 3rd ed are not that durable, starting with far less HP then a 4th ed low-level. a 3rd ed barbarian with 16 con has 15 hp at level 1. an orc deals 2d4+4 (7 avg) with his falchion. give that orc a greataxe and he deals 1d12+4, possibly brining the barb to unconciousness or dying in one hit. avoid this is iffy so i'll give precautions. there is nothing in particular to avoid other then core only monk who suffers greatly from Multiple Ability Dependancy and gets a whole lot of abilities that amount to not much in the end. the fighter gets a whole lot of feats which might allow him to be playable but requires some forethought. the main thing the fighter (all the martial types really) suffers from is that he's primarily a tank and can be "replaced" by summons or a strong pet/companion later in the game. i'm playing a level 16 druid in our Wednesday 3rd ed game. i can summon 1d4+1 large dire bears, then buff them into 120+HP forces of nature that can last for a few encounters. we don't have a real tank other then our paladin who's min-maxed to kill the monsters we normally fight, so for pure damage, he's a little bit harder to replace. another thing to watch out for is that different characters can play different games. the fighter and martial types generally only deal damage, while casters are usually better off casting powerful debuff spells and Save or Dies/Suck. there are a few "trap" feats to watch out for if you're planning on playing a real campaign. toughness is pathetic, as is endurance and diehard seems good on paper (you can fight normally while dying, the -1 to -9 HP range) but it's VERY easy to have enemies that deal the damage required to kill you (in all honesty i'd rather be at -5 and a non-threatening target then at -5 and a threatening target). the +2 to a skill feats are pretty useless as a character only gets a handful of feats over their career. --------------- if you need help with the game, don't hesitate to ask. a lot of us have been playing 3rd ed since it came out.
#23 Arcane_Guyver Aug 12, 2009 19:24:35	Actually, with the retraining rules (Player's Handbook II), many of those 'trap' feats aren't so bad. Toughness is crap for most of the game...however, it's invaluable to many characters at low levels (the time where most good feats aren't even available or useful yet); I'd recommend anyone playing a creature with Level Adjustment to take Toughness as their 1st-level feat, then retrain it later when they aren't quite as squishy. Low-level spellcasters might want to take this, since there aren't many good low-level feats available; even better, most metamagic feats do not have a prerequisite, so you could retrain Toughness for a much more useful feat later on. Diehard isn't a bad feat; you auto-stabilize, and gain the option to remain on your feet while in the negatives. Careful reading of the rules shows you do not need to stay on your feet. Endurance is also really good for annoying campaigns with lots of night attacks or extended periods of strenuous activity. Extra Music (Complete Adventurer) is not very useful for most bards after 5th level, but it makes them so much more fun to play at low levels. Another good one to retrain away. That said, many, MANY feats from the expansion books (and even Player's Handbook...looking at YOU, Deceitful and Diligent!) are irredeemably horrible, though, and would be better forgotten for all time. Sidenote, though it wasn't officially part of the errata, WotC recommended groups completely ban the polymorph line of spells in the Player's Handbook I (other than Baleful Polymorph), removing it's influence from the Druid's Wild Shape ability, as well as the Monster Manuals. Shapechangers either need to play druids or take the new polymorph spells from Player's Handbook II, Complete Mage & Spell Compendium.