Ideas for a certain wish.... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Ideas for a certain wish....

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
nebseb
Jul 04, 2010 3:48:16 So here is the deal.
I'm playing a
Human / Shade
Rogue 5/Wizard 1/Shadowdancer 2

I just ran across a
Nightwalker Bow
- weilder controlled by Nightwalker cr 16
- on hit dc24 save against fear for 1d8 rounds
- Plane Shift Shadow 1/day
- contageon at will
- fiinger of Death 1/day
- Confusion 3/Day
- Hold Monster cr19

so uber bow right...except the facr that I don't want o be controlled by an evil creature.
I'm chaotic netural.

My DM said that I could always make a wish to have the creature that controlls me be chaotic netural and wish for it to change to that creature.

Or I could come up with a better solution. Long term we are going to be fighting a bunch of demons and things in the abysmal plane.

So i'm trying to figure out a better wish or idea of how to make this bow useful now and long term.

the creature that controlls it can be CR 16 - 18

any ideas out there?

Thanks
#2
Astromath
Jul 04, 2010 11:40:53 You don't need to go as far as wishing an alignment change on the bow. Here are two ideas: 1) wish that the control aspect of the bow does not work on you. 2) wish for the bow to be permanently charmed by you. Both ways allow the bow to control somebody else if they wield it while you can wield it without being dominated. These would be easier wishes to grant. If you wish for the bow to change alignment, there's a possibility that the powers would also change to match the new alignment (depends on how evil the DM is feeling when the wish is granted).
#3
nebseb
Jul 04, 2010 20:56:48 Thats a great idea, only long term when i go to the abysmal plane I don't think that would be as beneficial to keep the evil alignment to the bow.
#4
Astromath
Jul 05, 2010 11:14:57 Just remember if you wish to have the bow's alignment change, any DM worth his/her salt will also change the powers to match the new alignment. It will be next to impossible to word the wish so that the alignment changes, but not the powers. Even if you do manage to word the wish properly, something else could happen. For example, the alignment change is not permanent and as soon as you head out for the Abyss, the alignment changes back. Another caveat, the alignment changes, but the bow disappears because the new incarnation belongs to somebody else. I believe the reasoning behind the dominating effect is that the bow is too powerful an item for a character of your level. Any wish will "dumb down" the powers to that appropriate for your level. I'm an evil DM when it comes to wishes.

Think on this: since the bow is evil, it was probably created by imprisoning a demon (quasit, etc) into the bow. The bow may have inside info about where you're going. Changing the bow's alignment essentially changes the entity imprisoned in the bow, and you would lose your informant. Now comes the question: is it worth being dominated when using the bow in order for you to have a handy source of Abyssal information.

As I said before, I think charming the bow so that you can dominate the entity is better than changing the bow's alignment, or wishing yourself to be immune to the bow's dominating effect.

P.S. be careful on how you wish to be immune to the dominating effect, because unless it is worded correctly, a dead PC is immune to the bow's dominating effect.
#5
nebseb
Jul 05, 2010 11:34:50 I actually want the alignment of the bow to change.
and I know the spells will also change.

As my DM said on saturday, the bow is tied to a living nightwalker.

We were discussing changing the creature its bound to, and which spells it would get, and so I could have it changed to a Planater and would inheret thier Spells they have access to via the Bow.

But also it would seem that beyond that It would also be wise to dominate over that creature so I'm not forced into an alignment change while wielding the bow.

I'm a chaotic netural alignment and tend to play that way naturally, lawful good and such don't work so well for me.

I mean in our current campaign i let a hechuva (spelling?) live and now he tends to ally with me, while the rest of my group would have just killed him.

So back on point I want an alignment change to one of the other planar creatures, just trying to figure out the best one is difficult.

and keep i mind we will be fighting on the abysmal plane soon which the nightwalkers spells wont be of much use.

Thanks for your replies!
#6
Astromath
Jul 05, 2010 18:35:14 Just by changing the bow's alignment doesn't necessarily mean the domination part will go away. If the bow feels that its more powerful than you and that you are not acting in its best interests, you will get dominated whether you like it or not. Read up on the intelligent weapons rules in the DMG (I think, I don't have my books in front of me). Again, if I was the DM and wished for the bow's alignment to change, then the bow will disappear. The original bow going back to the place where it was found and the new bow is still in the hands of its owner (or lost someplace if it has no owner). Again, the wish must cover ALL loopholes. Just remember, the simpler the wish, the more apt it will go your way.

a) I wish for the entity in this bow that is two feet in front of me to be permanently charmed by me starting now.
b) I wish for this bow's alignment to change to my alignment.

What's the difference between the two wishes? In a) it has a starting point and a duration. The wording of the wish also takes into account that you are not holding it when the wish happens because the entity will dominate you to stop the wish. This wish has very few loopholes. In b) I would screw you over by having the alignment change, but not now, or the immediate future. I would have the bow's alignment change after you die. Also, the alignment will change, but it will change back as soon as possible (e.g. traveling to the Abyss). I could also screw you over by having the old bow disappear and you now have to fight the owner of the new bow (assuming you can find the owner). I would also rule that in order for the alignment to change, you would need to hold the bow in order for the alignment to match, but again the bow would dominate you and ruin the wish.

As I said before, the entity in the bow could have information about landmarks in the Abyss (though, its information could be decades/centuries old, but still valid, none-the-less) and the new entity will not.

The more the wish needs to change something, the more the wish will be perverted. Heck, even a charm monster spell, followed by a permanency spell will get better results than a wish, assuming you can find a high enough level mage to cast them.
#7
nebseb
Jul 06, 2010 9:39:33 I agree that charm monster and permanency would be good, the problem i also run into per the DM was that if the nightwalker tied to the bow died, he would just be replaced by another nighwalker in that realm.

hence the desire for an alignment change, or something more effective in the off chance the nightwalker died.

Though I do agree that he may know the abysmal plane better. Which would be a benefit to me and my party.

and my DM is an evil ass when it comes to wishes. So he advised me to write the wish out on paper. So thats what i plan to do, as soon as I can think of the best approach.
#8
Astromath
Jul 06, 2010 11:01:59 As the magic rules now stands for intelligent magic items, it is absolutely impossible for the nightwalker to die without having the whole bow destroyed. If the DM says otherwise, it is now a houserule.

As for the wish, how about "I wish this bow two feet in front of me to be transformed immediately and permanently with an identical bow better suited for my alignment but without the dominating effect and that the entity tied to the bow has knowledge of the Abyss who is also willing to impart said knowledge when needed." I think this wish covers any loopholes for any evil DM could find. This wish doesn't change the bow's alignment. It simply transforms the bow to one better suited for your needs.

Technically, that wish is two wishes in one and the DM may not allow it. The DM will just say that the wish tried to do the work of two wishes and the wish failed. You lost the wish. Another thing the DM may require is that for the wish to do the alignment change, you must be holding on to the bow, which would defeat the purpose of the wish because you will be dominated by the bow before the wish took place and the bow may in fact force you to wish that your alignment changes to its alignment. At least, that's what I would do.

You make the above wish. The DM says that the wish fizzled and that you know why the wish fizzled. You must hold the bow while making the wish. The DM has an evil smile.

Also, even if you get the bow to become CN, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will agree with your actions. If you do not line up to its expectations, the bow may just simply stop working for you. It may not be able to dominate you from the above wish, but it still can be as beligerant and obnoxious as possible. "Are we there yet?" "Go after the demon on the left. I have a grudge against that one." "No, no! I will not do that!" Even though your goals may coincide, it doesn't mean that the ways to accomplish your goals also coincide.
#9
mastercliff
Jul 06, 2010 12:33:52 So, you change the alignment, big deal. The bow is still controlling you.

To tell the truth, yeah, it's a nice weapon, but you are more melee, right? I say get rid of it. If you want free will, and the dm makes it impossible to be that way while holding the bow, then ditch it. Blurt out in some church that your bow is evil encarnate. Blurt it out to your party. Maybe some church can offer to imprison the creature, or atleast help with the bow's control over you.
#10
mock26
Jul 06, 2010 22:25:01 Just wish for a beer instead!

#11
nebseb
Jul 12, 2010 17:09:03 What about a simple:

I wish to be in control of any creature tied to this nightwalker bow in my possession.

How would any of you DM's screw with this? or is there a better way to rephrase it.

The only reason my alignment would alter is because I would be under the influence of the nightwalker. so if i remain in control I can keep my alignment and still use the abilities and that of the nightwalker bow.

thoughts?

#12
Astromath
Jul 13, 2010 0:39:21 Good wish except for two things: 1) the time element. The way your wish is worded it doesn't say when the control is going to take place. As a DM, I could rule, OK, you gain control over the entity in the bow on your deathbed, or even after you're dead (i.e., your spirit gains control of the bow). 2) you want to be control of the creature in the bow? Ok, you are now the creature in the bow and you are in control of yourself. Your body disappears. This wish fulfillment is the path of least resistance. Reasoning: since the creature presently in the bow would be resisant to being controlled, the wish simply replaces the creature with the wisher. The creature would want to be freed from the bow (usually) and you want control. What better way to have control of the creature in the bow by being the creature in the bow.

I compliment you coming up with the best wish so far with the exception of those small loopholes. Just remember, wishes are notoriously literal. They also go by the path of least resistance. They do not go by the intent of the wisher because the wish, being a non-conscious spell, cannot figure out your intent. Now, if you are using something like a djinn that grants wishes, the djinn (especially if he's properly rewarded) can read intent and grant the wish as worded.
#13
nebseb
Jul 13, 2010 0:49:18 How about:

I wish to be in control of any creature tied to this nightwalker bow in my possession; creatures tied to this bow are to be from the planar realms; also that control is to happen anytime i see fit for as long as I see fit.
#14
Astromath
Jul 13, 2010 19:53:59 Again you have the problem of replacing the creature in the bow with yourself. You are in a planar realm. The Prime Material Plane is a planar realm. You at least solved the time problem. Now, you need to solve the placing yourself into the bow problem.

I think a better wish is: I wish to be in control of the creature that is now permanently tied to this nightwalker bow in my possession going from this present moment forward.

The only drawback I see with this wish is that you can still control the creature after you die, after the bow is destroyed and the creature is freed, or both. You might want to add an ending clause along the lines of "until I die and can never be resurrected, raised from the dead, reincarnated, wished back to life, or brought back to life through the miracle spell."

Don't forget the bow can still be stolen, so you might need to add a clause for that (unless it is a cursed bow to begin with and that is one of its curses).
#15
nebseb
Jul 18, 2010 15:42:49 So in our campaign there is the church of whirling fury
and their head is able to cast wish.
so I went to her in game since she owed me a favor and asked her to word the wish for success.
So the DM goes to roll to see if he gets to screw with my wish and of course he rolled

1

So wish was free and clear no bad side effects.

I just simply asked for the nightwalker to no longer be able to control me while using the bow. Dm didn't want me controlling him and said it was a one way influence anyhow.

so I get the bow which goes well with my shade and no bad side effects. Go bad dm rolls for me.

lol.

Thanks for your help!
#16
Astromath
Jul 19, 2010 9:15:16 Glad it worked out. Have fun!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nebseb Jul 04, 2010 3:48:16	So here is the deal. I'm playing a Human / Shade Rogue 5/Wizard 1/Shadowdancer 2 I just ran across a Nightwalker Bow - weilder controlled by Nightwalker cr 16 - on hit dc24 save against fear for 1d8 rounds - Plane Shift Shadow 1/day - contageon at will - fiinger of Death 1/day - Confusion 3/Day - Hold Monster cr19 so uber bow right...except the facr that I don't want o be controlled by an evil creature. I'm chaotic netural. My DM said that I could always make a wish to have the creature that controlls me be chaotic netural and wish for it to change to that creature. Or I could come up with a better solution. Long term we are going to be fighting a bunch of demons and things in the abysmal plane. So i'm trying to figure out a better wish or idea of how to make this bow useful now and long term. the creature that controlls it can be CR 16 - 18 any ideas out there? Thanks
#2 Astromath Jul 04, 2010 11:40:53	You don't need to go as far as wishing an alignment change on the bow. Here are two ideas: 1) wish that the control aspect of the bow does not work on you. 2) wish for the bow to be permanently charmed by you. Both ways allow the bow to control somebody else if they wield it while you can wield it without being dominated. These would be easier wishes to grant. If you wish for the bow to change alignment, there's a possibility that the powers would also change to match the new alignment (depends on how evil the DM is feeling when the wish is granted).
#3 nebseb Jul 04, 2010 20:56:48	Thats a great idea, only long term when i go to the abysmal plane I don't think that would be as beneficial to keep the evil alignment to the bow.
#4 Astromath Jul 05, 2010 11:14:57	Just remember if you wish to have the bow's alignment change, any DM worth his/her salt will also change the powers to match the new alignment. It will be next to impossible to word the wish so that the alignment changes, but not the powers. Even if you do manage to word the wish properly, something else could happen. For example, the alignment change is not permanent and as soon as you head out for the Abyss, the alignment changes back. Another caveat, the alignment changes, but the bow disappears because the new incarnation belongs to somebody else. I believe the reasoning behind the dominating effect is that the bow is too powerful an item for a character of your level. Any wish will "dumb down" the powers to that appropriate for your level. I'm an evil DM when it comes to wishes. Think on this: since the bow is evil, it was probably created by imprisoning a demon (quasit, etc) into the bow. The bow may have inside info about where you're going. Changing the bow's alignment essentially changes the entity imprisoned in the bow, and you would lose your informant. Now comes the question: is it worth being dominated when using the bow in order for you to have a handy source of Abyssal information. As I said before, I think charming the bow so that you can dominate the entity is better than changing the bow's alignment, or wishing yourself to be immune to the bow's dominating effect. P.S. be careful on how you wish to be immune to the dominating effect, because unless it is worded correctly, a dead PC is immune to the bow's dominating effect.
#5 nebseb Jul 05, 2010 11:34:50	I actually want the alignment of the bow to change. and I know the spells will also change. As my DM said on saturday, the bow is tied to a living nightwalker. We were discussing changing the creature its bound to, and which spells it would get, and so I could have it changed to a Planater and would inheret thier Spells they have access to via the Bow. But also it would seem that beyond that It would also be wise to dominate over that creature so I'm not forced into an alignment change while wielding the bow. I'm a chaotic netural alignment and tend to play that way naturally, lawful good and such don't work so well for me. I mean in our current campaign i let a hechuva (spelling?) live and now he tends to ally with me, while the rest of my group would have just killed him. So back on point I want an alignment change to one of the other planar creatures, just trying to figure out the best one is difficult. and keep i mind we will be fighting on the abysmal plane soon which the nightwalkers spells wont be of much use. Thanks for your replies!
#6 Astromath Jul 05, 2010 18:35:14	Just by changing the bow's alignment doesn't necessarily mean the domination part will go away. If the bow feels that its more powerful than you and that you are not acting in its best interests, you will get dominated whether you like it or not. Read up on the intelligent weapons rules in the DMG (I think, I don't have my books in front of me). Again, if I was the DM and wished for the bow's alignment to change, then the bow will disappear. The original bow going back to the place where it was found and the new bow is still in the hands of its owner (or lost someplace if it has no owner). Again, the wish must cover ALL loopholes. Just remember, the simpler the wish, the more apt it will go your way. a) I wish for the entity in this bow that is two feet in front of me to be permanently charmed by me starting now. b) I wish for this bow's alignment to change to my alignment. What's the difference between the two wishes? In a) it has a starting point and a duration. The wording of the wish also takes into account that you are not holding it when the wish happens because the entity will dominate you to stop the wish. This wish has very few loopholes. In b) I would screw you over by having the alignment change, but not now, or the immediate future. I would have the bow's alignment change after you die. Also, the alignment will change, but it will change back as soon as possible (e.g. traveling to the Abyss). I could also screw you over by having the old bow disappear and you now have to fight the owner of the new bow (assuming you can find the owner). I would also rule that in order for the alignment to change, you would need to hold the bow in order for the alignment to match, but again the bow would dominate you and ruin the wish. As I said before, the entity in the bow could have information about landmarks in the Abyss (though, its information could be decades/centuries old, but still valid, none-the-less) and the new entity will not. The more the wish needs to change something, the more the wish will be perverted. Heck, even a charm monster spell, followed by a permanency spell will get better results than a wish, assuming you can find a high enough level mage to cast them.
#7 nebseb Jul 06, 2010 9:39:33	I agree that charm monster and permanency would be good, the problem i also run into per the DM was that if the nightwalker tied to the bow died, he would just be replaced by another nighwalker in that realm. hence the desire for an alignment change, or something more effective in the off chance the nightwalker died. Though I do agree that he may know the abysmal plane better. Which would be a benefit to me and my party. and my DM is an evil ass when it comes to wishes. So he advised me to write the wish out on paper. So thats what i plan to do, as soon as I can think of the best approach.
#8 Astromath Jul 06, 2010 11:01:59	As the magic rules now stands for intelligent magic items, it is absolutely impossible for the nightwalker to die without having the whole bow destroyed. If the DM says otherwise, it is now a houserule. As for the wish, how about "I wish this bow two feet in front of me to be transformed immediately and permanently with an identical bow better suited for my alignment but without the dominating effect and that the entity tied to the bow has knowledge of the Abyss who is also willing to impart said knowledge when needed." I think this wish covers any loopholes for any evil DM could find. This wish doesn't change the bow's alignment. It simply transforms the bow to one better suited for your needs. Technically, that wish is two wishes in one and the DM may not allow it. The DM will just say that the wish tried to do the work of two wishes and the wish failed. You lost the wish. Another thing the DM may require is that for the wish to do the alignment change, you must be holding on to the bow, which would defeat the purpose of the wish because you will be dominated by the bow before the wish took place and the bow may in fact force you to wish that your alignment changes to its alignment. At least, that's what I would do. You make the above wish. The DM says that the wish fizzled and that you know why the wish fizzled. You must hold the bow while making the wish. The DM has an evil smile. Also, even if you get the bow to become CN, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will agree with your actions. If you do not line up to its expectations, the bow may just simply stop working for you. It may not be able to dominate you from the above wish, but it still can be as beligerant and obnoxious as possible. "Are we there yet?" "Go after the demon on the left. I have a grudge against that one." "No, no! I will not do that!" Even though your goals may coincide, it doesn't mean that the ways to accomplish your goals also coincide.
#9 mastercliff Jul 06, 2010 12:33:52	So, you change the alignment, big deal. The bow is still controlling you. To tell the truth, yeah, it's a nice weapon, but you are more melee, right? I say get rid of it. If you want free will, and the dm makes it impossible to be that way while holding the bow, then ditch it. Blurt out in some church that your bow is evil encarnate. Blurt it out to your party. Maybe some church can offer to imprison the creature, or atleast help with the bow's control over you.
#10 mock26 Jul 06, 2010 22:25:01	Just wish for a beer instead!
#11 nebseb Jul 12, 2010 17:09:03	What about a simple: I wish to be in control of any creature tied to this nightwalker bow in my possession. How would any of you DM's screw with this? or is there a better way to rephrase it. The only reason my alignment would alter is because I would be under the influence of the nightwalker. so if i remain in control I can keep my alignment and still use the abilities and that of the nightwalker bow. thoughts?
#12 Astromath Jul 13, 2010 0:39:21	Good wish except for two things: 1) the time element. The way your wish is worded it doesn't say when the control is going to take place. As a DM, I could rule, OK, you gain control over the entity in the bow on your deathbed, or even after you're dead (i.e., your spirit gains control of the bow). 2) you want to be control of the creature in the bow? Ok, you are now the creature in the bow and you are in control of yourself. Your body disappears. This wish fulfillment is the path of least resistance. Reasoning: since the creature presently in the bow would be resisant to being controlled, the wish simply replaces the creature with the wisher. The creature would want to be freed from the bow (usually) and you want control. What better way to have control of the creature in the bow by being the creature in the bow. I compliment you coming up with the best wish so far with the exception of those small loopholes. Just remember, wishes are notoriously literal. They also go by the path of least resistance. They do not go by the intent of the wisher because the wish, being a non-conscious spell, cannot figure out your intent. Now, if you are using something like a djinn that grants wishes, the djinn (especially if he's properly rewarded) can read intent and grant the wish as worded.
#13 nebseb Jul 13, 2010 0:49:18	How about: I wish to be in control of any creature tied to this nightwalker bow in my possession; creatures tied to this bow are to be from the planar realms; also that control is to happen anytime i see fit for as long as I see fit.
#14 Astromath Jul 13, 2010 19:53:59	Again you have the problem of replacing the creature in the bow with yourself. You are in a planar realm. The Prime Material Plane is a planar realm. You at least solved the time problem. Now, you need to solve the placing yourself into the bow problem. I think a better wish is: I wish to be in control of the creature that is now permanently tied to this nightwalker bow in my possession going from this present moment forward. The only drawback I see with this wish is that you can still control the creature after you die, after the bow is destroyed and the creature is freed, or both. You might want to add an ending clause along the lines of "until I die and can never be resurrected, raised from the dead, reincarnated, wished back to life, or brought back to life through the miracle spell." Don't forget the bow can still be stolen, so you might need to add a clause for that (unless it is a cursed bow to begin with and that is one of its curses).
#15 nebseb Jul 18, 2010 15:42:49	So in our campaign there is the church of whirling fury and their head is able to cast wish. so I went to her in game since she owed me a favor and asked her to word the wish for success. So the DM goes to roll to see if he gets to screw with my wish and of course he rolled 1 So wish was free and clear no bad side effects. I just simply asked for the nightwalker to no longer be able to control me while using the bow. Dm didn't want me controlling him and said it was a one way influence anyhow. so I get the bow which goes well with my shade and no bad side effects. Go bad dm rolls for me. lol. Thanks for your help!
#16 Astromath Jul 19, 2010 9:15:16	Glad it worked out. Have fun!