and then in every encounter, the fighter ignores my "hold on there, let me AoE these dudes first, charges in, and gets his brains bashed out. Later he whines about how he had to take all of the damage.
I'm trying to not damage the other players in this game, so I dont want to blast him, but it's awfully tempting, since basically all I can do is pea-shooter the monsters with magic missle.
Depending on the player I would(IC) either berate or chide him on his lack of small group tactics.
After the game I would set him down and tyr to explain some more
I will sometimes do something in character that I personally know isn't the greatest idea just for that reason. Of course, usually once is enough. If he continues to do it, then you may have a real issue.
Or you optimize your init so that you generally go before him, and then get your power off before he gets in the way.
Or just blast away, and say, "I began the incantaitons as soon as the goblins jumped out of the bush. It gets to a point and there is no stopping the spell." AKA I am doing this no matter what, if you charge in there you will take lots of damage from either the goblins or me. But if you wait till i cast the spell you will take a little damage from goblins, and none from me. Your choice. In game ask the fighter to do the arcana check to correct you.
"You will take less damage if you hold up a second"
Or you optimize your init so that you generally go before him, and then get your power off before he gets in the way.
Or just blast away, and say, "I began the incantaitons as soon as the goblins jumped out of the bush. It gets to a point and there is no stopping the spell." AKA I am doing this no matter what, if you charge in there you will take lots of damage from either the goblins or me. But if you wait till i cast the spell you will take a little damage from goblins, and none from me. Your choice. In game ask the fighter to do the arcana check to correct you.
Why is everyone coming down on the fighter? Am I the only one who is thinking maybe the Wizard should think before dropping AoE's on his party's head? Is there something wrong with "let me target this spell behind the mooks so my ally doesn't take damage?"
It's one thing to complain that a Fighter is rushing into battle without getting buffed. It's another to admit you are intentionally attacking your own party, and then wonder why your allies get annoyed.
Why is everyone coming down on the fighter?
Because we've all seen this happen? Because it sucks to be a grenade-chucker when you can rarely chuck grenades?
It's another to admit you are intentionally attacking your own party, and then wonder why your allies get annoyed.
My allies don't get annoyed when I do this; in fact, they know that if they stick to the game plan, things work out for the better. If the fighter gets into the middle of things, it makes it tough for the wizard to do his thing at all. Conversely, if the fighter holds his action so the wizard can do his thing, you're only losing a few points of initiative.
Why is everyone coming down on the fighter? Am I the only one who is thinking maybe the Wizard should think before dropping AoE's on his party's head? Is there something wrong with "let me target this spell behind the mooks so my ally doesn't take damage?"
It's one thing to complain that a Fighter is rushing into battle without getting buffed. It's another to admit you are intentionally attacking your own party, and then wonder why your allies get annoyed.
Friendly fire isn't. Incoming attacks have the right of way. Stupid is as stupid does.
Look, the player of the fighter is going for the glory and then *****ing when he takes a beating. He can avoid that by allowing someone else to participate as well. We don't know how the mooks are set up so we can't assume that the wizard always has the best opportunity to do avoid hitting the party. The easiest way to avoid being hit is to not be in the line of fire. The fighter has that opportunity. The player of the fighter can let someone else get some game time in also.
Why is everyone coming down on the fighter? Am I the only one who is thinking maybe the Wizard should think before dropping AoE's on his party's head? Is there something wrong with "let me target this spell behind the mooks so my ally doesn't take damage?"
It's one thing to complain that a Fighter is rushing into battle without getting buffed. It's another to admit you are intentionally attacking your own party, and then wonder why your allies get annoyed.
Because the fighter is causing the wizard to be pointless. Attacking 1 enemy a round is a warlock's job, not a wizard's (they're better at it, anyways).
The wizard's player gets no chance to PLAY. He just casts his magic missle and zones out for a turn. How is that fun?
I play a Paladin, and I tend to rush out as well. I just take the fireball and roll with it. Granted, IC I'm kind of a martyr, but I KNOW my party won't let me die.
I hope.
Friendly fire isn't. Incoming attacks have the right of way. Stupid is as stupid does.
You didn't answer my question. The way I see it, the idiot is the Wizard. What kind of person thinks it is acceptable to drop AoE's on his party when there are ways to use those same spells without friendly fire? The Wizard is being self-centered by not taking his allys' actions into account. Spells can be targeted. If the Wizard won't target to avoid friendly fire, the Fighter has a right to be angery.
Look, the player of the fighter is going for the glory and then *****ing when he takes a beating.
You only have the OP's word that that is what happened. The way I see it, the OP was determined to do things his way, no matter what everyone thought or did.
He can avoid that by allowing someone else to participate as well.
So it's OK if the Wizard screws over the Fighter?
We don't know how the mooks are set up so we can't assume that the wizard always has the best opportunity to do avoid hitting the party.
So you don't use AoE's. Or you miss some of the mooks, but get others. Or you target other mooks.
The easiest way to avoid being hit is to not be in the line of fire.
So the Fighter is just supposed to stand there until the Wizard is done? How many rounds is the Fighter supposed to wait around?
Because the fighter is causing the wizard to be pointless.
Other way around. The Wizard expect the Fighter to do nothing.
The wizard's player gets no chance to PLAY.
Again, the Wizard is expecting the Fighter to stand around and do nothing, while the Wizard does all the work. Who is expecting who not to play?
He just casts his magic missle and zones out for a turn. How is that fun?
How is it fun to be told you aren't allowed to do anything - including go into combat because you might get in someone's way?
Why is everyone coming down on the fighter? Am I the only one who is thinking maybe the Wizard should think before dropping AoE's on his party's head? Is there something wrong with "let me target this spell behind the mooks so my ally doesn't take damage?"
It's one thing to complain that a Fighter is rushing into battle without getting buffed. It's another to admit you are intentionally attacking your own party, and then wonder why your allies get annoyed.
Did you even bother to read the OP before posting?
and then in every encounter, the fighter ignores my "hold on there, let me AoE these dudes first, charges in, and gets his brains bashed out. Later he whines about how he had to take all of the damage.
Yes, it's really the wizard's fault, clearly. I mean how dare he go ahead and do his job/perform his class' role after the fighter ignored a warning and ran into a location where he knew the wizard was planning on casting an AoE spell
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How is it fun to be told you aren't allowed to do anything - including go into combat because you might get in someone's way?
The wizard isn't saying 'don't do anything'. He's saying 'don't do anything YET'. The wizard is trying to be tactical and use his abilities to make everybody's job easier; if he can bomb out a few opponents, the fighter won't take so many hits. All the fighter has to do is delay his action, and he and the wizard, together, will accomplish more than either can individually.
It's called teamwork.
I recommend explaining this to him. If he still won't get it, do everything you can to beat out his initiative so you just go first.
You didn't answer my question. The way I see it, the idiot is the Wizard. What kind of person thinks it is acceptable to drop AoE's on his party when there are ways to use those same spells without friendly fire? The Wizard is being self-centered by not taking his allys' actions into account. Spells can be targeted. If the Wizard won't target to avoid friendly fire, the Fighter has a right to be angery. Nope, not after the fighter ignores a warning and enters the area anyway.
You only have the OP's word that that is what happened. The way I see it, the OP was determined to do things his way, no matter what everyone thought or did. It's best not to make such assumptions.
So it's OK if the Wizard screws over the Fighter? No one was really screwing over anyone. The wizard warned the fighter about the AoE, the fighter ran in anyway and then complained when he got damaged. The wizard was not screwing over the fighter, the fighter decided to ignore a warning and attack the enemy NPCs, didn't like the consequences of his decision and whined about it. This is all clearly explained in the OP. ;)
So you don't use AoE's. Or you miss some of the mooks, but get others. Or you target other mooks. Or the fighter can just wait for a round, or delay his turn until after the wizard's turn(if that's still possible in 4th.)
So the Fighter is just supposed to stand there until the Wizard is done? How many rounds is the Fighter supposed to wait around? The fighter does not have to wait, he can try using a ranged attack for a single round while the wizard casts his AoE spell.
Other way around. The Wizard expect the Fighter to do nothing. I do not see anywhere in the OP where it states what a player expected something of another, you're reading too much into things again and making poor assumptions.
Again, the Wizard is expecting the Fighter to stand around and do nothing, while the Wizard does all the work. Who is expecting who not to play? Nope the wizard is just warning the fighter that he plans to cast an AoE spell, it's completely up to the fighter whether he stands around and does nothing, pulls out a ranged weapon and fires, or charges into melee and gets caught in the AoE spell.
How is it fun to be told you aren't allowed to do anything - including go into combat because you might get in someone's way? The wizard warned the fighter that he was planning on casting an AoE spell, yet the fighter ran in anyway, got affected by it and whined. If someone decides to enter a location that they know is going to be the target of an AoE spell, they should not be surprised when that spell affects them, nor should they whine about it. The wizard wasn't forcing him to charge into melee, it was his choice to charge into melee even after the wizard expressed his intent to AoE the enemy NPCs
Replies in green.
You didn't answer my question. The way I see it, the idiot is the Wizard. What kind of person thinks it is acceptable to drop AoE's on his party when there are ways to use those same spells without friendly fire? The Wizard is being self-centered by not taking his allys' actions into account. Spells can be targeted. If the Wizard won't target to avoid friendly fire, the Fighter has a right to be angery.
You only have the OP's word that that is what happened. The way I see it, the OP was determined to do things his way, no matter what everyone thought or did.
So it's OK if the Wizard screws over the Fighter?
So you don't use AoE's. Or you miss some of the mooks, but get others. Or you target other mooks.
So the Fighter is just supposed to stand there until the Wizard is done? How many rounds is the Fighter supposed to wait around?
Other way around. The Wizard expect the Fighter to do nothing.
Again, the Wizard is expecting the Fighter to stand around and do nothing, while the Wizard does all the work. Who is expecting who not to play?
How is it fun to be told you aren't allowed to do anything - including go into combat because you might get in someone's way?
Stop being narrow minded. I mean that the Fighter should probably let the wizard kill the minions or soften the brutes/soldiers up first before rushing in. Hell, rush in anyways and let the wizard blast you too. The monsters will be worse off than you in the end. 4E is all about planning and tactics. Why can't the fighter hold back for 6 seconds until the fire dies down? IC, I wouldn't run into an area unless I had a damn good reason to, unless I trusted my party (which this fighter apparently doesn't)
This week we all simply held actions & let him get the crap beat out of him (since what was happening was his fault & not directly hindering our mission).
The consenus though is that if/when it's important we're going to chuck the frag & concussion grenades into the melee on top of him....
A couple of doses of that should teach him to listen to the rest of us when we plot to "soften up" enemies.
Adopt a similar stance. Afterall, it's easier to heal people in D&D than it is D20 Modern/Future.
More seriously - it depends on the situation.
Sometimes it is better for the fighter to hold off. Ok, most times.
But sometimes it is better if the fighter can leap into the fray and use his stickiness to prevent the NPCs from advancing. This is especially true if there is a potential bottleneck that can be exploited.
My own opinion is that the fighter needs to consider the wizards spell placement ability. And he needs to consider the relative initiative of the wizard. For example if he runs up to but does not pass the front line of the incoming creatures - the wizard will typically still be able to drop his spell behind the enemy and hit the creatures while if he goes past the enemies front line the wizard no longer has that option. Likewise, if the wizard is going shortly after he is, but before the opponents are going to act, it is almost always better to delay until after the wizard has a chance to act but if the wizard is going last and all of the creatures are going to have a chance to act first, it is almost never worth waiting and giving up the ability to start shutting down their movement.
But in the end, if the wizard is of a personality that would allow him to blast his allies and the fighter just isn't getting it - I'd go for it. Sometimes a fighter's gotta learn by experience.
Carl
Why is everyone coming down on the fighter? Am I the only one who is thinking maybe the Wizard should think before dropping AoE's on his party's head? Is there something wrong with "let me target this spell behind the mooks so my ally doesn't take damage?"
It's one thing to complain that a Fighter is rushing into battle without getting buffed. It's another to admit you are intentionally attacking your own party, and then wonder why your allies get annoyed.
Because the wizard came here and said "how can i get my teammate to stop running into an area i planned to attack with a fireball" not. "My fighter keeps running into the area i plan to fireball, and then complians when the fireball damages him.
Meaning the wizard isn't dropping AoE spells on his party, and is in fact just sort of sitting around. He is specifically not doing this.
Why is everyone coming down on the fighter? Am I the only one who is thinking maybe the Wizard should think before dropping AoE's on his party's head? Is there something wrong with "let me target this spell behind the mooks so my ally doesn't take damage?"
It's one thing to complain that a Fighter is rushing into battle without getting buffed. It's another to admit you are intentionally attacking your own party, and then wonder why your allies get annoyed.
If you reread the OP, the wizard didn't say he was dropping AoE on his party; he's saying he's unable to *use* his AoE because the fighter keeps getting in the way. The fighter then complains because he takes the brunt of the damage from the enemies he insists on wading into during every encounter.
There isn't much the wizard can do in this situation except 1) (as others have already pointed out) placing his AoE where it will damage the enemy but not a party member - not always as effective, but better to hit just 2 of the enemies with your Fireball than none of them 2) Attacking before the fighter when you have initiative or 3) Get together as a party and decide on some basic tactics before going into combat; try to make the fighter understand that it makes sense to let your wizard clear out the minions so you can support his "glorious" battle against more powerful single foes.
And if he still doesn't learn, go ahead and set him on fire. If getting caught in a few AoEs isn't educational, it will at least be entertaining - - ;)
You didn't answer my question. The way I see it, the idiot is the Wizard. What kind of person thinks it is acceptable to drop AoE's on his party when there are ways to use those same spells without friendly fire? The Wizard is being self-centered by not taking his allys' actions into account. Spells can be targeted. If the Wizard won't target to avoid friendly fire, the Fighter has a right to be angery.
The wizard has asked for one round and not even the whole round. He has asked the fighter to hold his action until after the wizard goes.
You only have the OP's word that that is what happened. The way I see it, the OP was determined to do things his way, no matter what everyone thought or did.
We only have the OP's word. Why would he come here to vent that the fighter was giving him a chance? Obviously either he is lying completely or he is telling the truth. I'm inclined to go with the latter.
So it's OK if the Wizard screws over the Fighter?
How is asking to wait a moment screwing over the fighter? It's what the Controller is supposed to do. He is supposed to Control the battlefield. That means that the Defender is supposed to Defend him while he does so.
So you don't use AoE's. Or you miss some of the mooks, but get others. Or you target other mooks.
That's exactly his complaint.
So the Fighter is just supposed to stand there until the Wizard is done? How many rounds is the Fighter supposed to wait around?
Less than a round. Of course I got all this from the OP so that's all I have to go on.
Other way around. The Wizard expect the Fighter to do nothing.
That's funny. I'm not sure where you got that from. Are you the player of the fighter?
How is it fun to be told you aren't allowed to do anything - including go into combat because you might get in someone's way?
Actually, we always allow someone to take a moment to soften up the enemy if they ask. It's good tactics and good teamwork.
Other way around. The Wizard expect the Fighter to do nothing.
That's funny. I'm not sure where you got that from. Are you the player of the fighter?
Or just another fine specimen of said breed of players incapable of even basic cooperation. Their PCs would make fine candidates for the Darwin Award if it weren't for the fact that there is either the "Raise Dead" ritual/spell or another PC coming along using the same tactics...
Unfortunately, there's too many of them around.
Just blast away, even if the fighter takes some damage from you, it'll probably be less then taking damage from the horde around him. Don't intentionally hit him, but don't let it stop you either.
You can also make this a tactic, having the fighter run up, draw in the enemy, activate some resist, then you blast.
Or just another fine specimen of said breed of players incapable of even basic cooperation. Their PCs would make fine candidates for the Darwin Award if it weren't for the fact that there is either the "Raise Dead" ritual/spell or another PC coming along using the same tactics...
Unfortunately, there's too many of them around.
For the record, I am not accusing him of being anything other than the other player in question. From the way he is defending the position it feels like he is the player who has been attacked for his actions.
So i tried playing a wizard for once, built him pretty well, added cool AoE encounter/dailies...
and then in every encounter, the fighter ignores my "hold on there, let me AoE these dudes first, charges in, and gets his brains bashed out. Later he whines about how he had to take all of the damage.
I'm trying to not damage the other players in this game, so I dont want to blast him, but it's awfully tempting, since basically all I can do is pea-shooter the monsters with magic missle.
This is the way things almost always work. Fighters are stupid.... they just want to hit things. Tactics? Bah.... lets smash us some fleshy bits. While the Wizard wants to make it into a chess game..... so as a Wizard always remember.... the other pieces on the board can be sacrificed if necessary.
This is the way things almost always work. Fighters are stupid.... they just want to hit things. Tactics? Bah.... lets smash us some fleshy bits. While the Wizard wants to make it into a chess game..... so as a Wizard always remember.... the other pieces on the board can be sacrificed if necessary.
Now, is a blanket statement like this really necessary? Stereotypes don't do well to showcase intelligence.
Anyways, I can see how the OP is getting frustrated. But, the OP really does need to remember that there are times when it is tactically sound for the Fighter to charge out into the fray before the Wizard gets a chance to drop bombs on the baddies.
Are the monsters particulary nasty/mobile, and ahead of the Wizard in initiative? If so, maybe it is sound for the Fighter to run ahead and tie them up to keep Squishy McWizardson from getting cut to ribbons.
Is there a potential bottle-neck, as previously mentioned? If so, that Fighter may well be best to clog it up, to keep the rest of the party relatively safe to pound the baddies with impunity.
BBEG? No need for AoE, so the Fighter can tie it up while the Wizard drops some powerful status bombs on it.
On the flip side of this, however, both the Wizard AND the Fighter need to realize there are also times when it is tactically sound to drop that bomb on top of the Fighter's head, or at least in a place where he is in the blast radius. Fighters have pretty darn good hp, a lot of surges, and access to a decent amount of exploits that can mitigate damage.
And the Fighter could do well to remember that adventuring is a team occupation. Allowing everyone to fulfill their roles at the proper times is sound tactics and good teamwork.
Successful teamwork is built around compromise. Explain that to your Fighter ally. And take it to heart as well. No, he shouldn't be dashing out to the forefront in every fight before you get to do your job and control the battlefield. But, remember that there are times when he SHOULD do just that, even if he has to make a sacrifice (in the form of burnt/frozen/melted/shocked flesh) for the team.
If you're still at heroic, take Improved Initiative, and just go first.
This all assumes that he's not willing to discuss the issue and wait for your wizard to cast his AoEs, of course.