I have been Gaming for a long time. Age mid 40's started in the mid 80's .. mostly played DnD.
One of the hardest things i ever did in my life... was to ask a player/friend to leave the game and not return. I was the DM . and he was a player that was not fitting into the group . The players, primarily the female ones could not stand this friend of ours while gaming. He was loud and very into the game .. and a friend of mine for 8 years and of a couple of the players as well.
My point is: It seems a common response to gaming problems .. ask them to leave .. find a new group .. if the group / DM sucks find a new one.
Call me a 45 year old sissy .. I can remember where i was 7 years ago when it happened on the phone with him telling him he was not welcome to play with us. It ironed itself into my brain.. i lost a good friend, it hurt him and me deeply.
It was like cutting a arm off.
A good part of the group i am in now have been together for decades or years and years. Problems get ironed out one way or another, one never speaks of leaving the group, as we are friends. having fun, playing DND.. in that order.
I am shocked at the sight of seeing one suggest to leave a group or asking a player to leave. This is just so very VERY HARD
It only happened to me once in my life so far.
I've never had to ask a player to leave a group, but it's been close on occasion - and usually, it's me persuading myself not to leave the group in frustration. And my regular group are mostly people who have known each other for years and years, some going back to the '80's (including my brother...). The one time I did deliberately remove a player, we just moved the campaign play site and 'conveniently' neglected to inform the annoying player (it was a decision among several of us, and no one objected) - though that was just an occasional, though continuing game, not a full-blown regular group.
I do think that some people are too quick to jump to the 'leave the group' or 'kick 'im out' advice, but it seems the nature of the 'Net that there're always people who, out of less sensitive natures, or deliberate jerkosity, will suggest such things immediately.
Ultimately, it comes down to the experience and attitudes of the people in the particular group. One person, due to whatever issues, might simply not fit in, even if given some hints, advice or outright warnings. And while it might seem harsh, there are times when it just needs to be done in order to maintain the well-being and sociability of the rest of the group. If being removed from the game really did break a years-long friendship, it seems to me that either the friendship was entirely based on the game, or there were other issues in the air that were straining the reslationship anyway. Or both. In any case, being evicted from or evicting someone else from a group, even if done for the best reasons and with the best skill, can leave hurt feelings and guilt on both sides. There's not much to do but move on and learn from it, and maybe try to rebuild bridges if possible.
I've only ever had to kick someone out of a campaign once, he's been my friend for several years and we also happen to work together...he was at the most a little hurt, but he quickly got over it and it in no way shape or form damaged our friendship and we still see each other fairly often.
Besides, in alot of cases it's sparing one person's feelings at the expense of the rest of the group not enjoying themselves. D&D is supposed to be a fun game, if you're not having fun then what's the point of playing? Sometimes people end up taking away from that experience, it's unfortunate but the only thing you can really do is talk to them about it and hope they change whatever is causing the problem. Otherwise you can only have so many talks before you just cut the problem at the source.
I don't hang out and game with people I can't stand gaming with.
If they can't deal with my style of game, good luck. find a different DM, or players to play with.
All of my friends are gamers, and we play mostly the same games. There's a few groups that mix around, depending who is running what when.
I've had to rid myself of people that, in game and out were just impossible to deal with, thus, they did not become my close friends. Or people who were close friends, but they pulled interpersonal stuff or hijacked campaigns or Trashed campaigns or stole players, such that..I don't deal with them any more.
Those that have stood the test of time, I have known for 15+ years, They know me, I know them, we enjoy gaming. We all got our flaws, and we accept them.
It's not this callous kind of oh, I could give a damn less about that guy that I am asking to leave.
It is more a callous kind of life is short, I value my fun time, and I don't choose to deal with people that cut into it, especially when everyone else in the group is not trying to tear it down.
My wife doesn't game, and she's fine with it. My friends who treat her with respect.
Also, I never pull anything like vote the guy off the island. It's up to the DM to remove people. If Asked, I'll say what I think, but if it's intolerable, i'll vote with my feet, and try again with a group months later.
I'm lucky in that the groups I am in now are really cool, easy to get along with, roleplayers, some of which are new, some I've known 15+ years.
I can't say how I'd deal with a situation like the OP. If the guy was a good friend, long term, and I could deal with him, I'd let it stand, and let the newcomers fall by the wayside, unless it was obvious there was no way to get the old friend to change direction.
Many of the people I game with have disabilities, so there's a lot of leeway in what I'll tolerate that comes from their disability, or what comes from disability, plus "is a jerk anyway" behavior.
The latter, will still get the boot.
Some have called me elitist, but I know all too well life is short.
Maybe I'm too much of a mercenary DM.
I've gotten flak for saying this before:
I don't hang out and game with people I can't stand gaming with.
I agree with this.
There just doesn't seem to be any point in gaming with people who aren't into the game, are disruptive, or whatever.
I have friends that I enjoy hanging out with but will not game with anymore and have told them as much. It doesn't make us not friends, we just do different stuff when we get together.
My friends sometimes play games that I don't terribly enjoy. When this happens I simply don't game with them for awhile. Yes, it's annoying and I miss hanging out with them, but they are my friends and I don't want to bring their fun down just because I dislike a game system or my style of gaming isn't the best fit for the campaign they want to run.
Roleplaying is a hobby. A hobby should be fun. If it feels like work, or if you have to keep an eye out for player or DM drama, then gaming is going wrong.
Actually, any thread asking "Help me deal with problem player/DM X" sets off alarm bells in my head, because the thread itself is probably unnessecary if both parties are willing to reason with each other or compromise. And unless both parties are willing to reason with each other or compromise, they probably shouldn't be gaming together.
The truth is, D&D can be a very demanding hobby. Designing a character or adventure can be a lot of work. In addition to time spent actually gaming, there is character or adventure design, research into sourcebooks, etc, it really is a fairly large investment of time and energy.
If someone can make your investment of time and energy revolve around some act of douchebaggery, that can really really suck.
I don't actually play D&D anymore, because the only roleplaying group I know in my area is a pack of immature buffoons who like to use rpgs as a tool to manipulate or bully other players. Frankly, I do not want to give those people the time and energy that goes into roleplaying games.
Instead I use D&D characters for interactive fiction or freeform roleplaying, partly because I enjoy creative writing but 90% because the online writers I know tend to be FAR better people to share a roleplaying experience with.
Each individual, each situation is unique but life is too short to game with people that you do not like. That means that even if you're the DM and you don't have a problem with a player - if the other players do then it is your responsibility to kick 'em out.
Of course you don't necessarily have to make that happen the way it sounds. You ask them not to come back. You stop telling them when/where the game is. You tell them that the current arrangements just aren't working and, sad as it is, they are the odd-man out. That's how life goes sometimes and although there aren't many proper warnings or advice about it in the DM's guide, dealing with PEOPLE issues IS part of what you sign on for when you take the hotseat. If you're the DM then it's YOUR game, and that means you take a certain responsibility for the enjoyment of everyone there. If the majority of players have a problem with 1 other player then you try to work it out, but ultimately the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few thing comes into play. Gaming is NEVER something you should be losing friends over so if you ever have to ask a friend to find another game it might hurt in a, "well this is disappointing because _I_ was having fun," kind of way, but ultimately should NEVER become a bigger issue. If it does then somebody somewhere has a problem beyond the norm that has nothing to do with the game.
And of course all this assumes that communication has been open and other means of resolution have been tried or determined to fail. The first rule of ALL D&D games is not Rule 0 or any such thing. It's COMMUNICATION. DM's communicate with players. Players communicate with the DM and with each other - meaning that if one player has a problem with another but it's not openly disruptive to the game then it is NOT the DM's responsibility to solve the issue - it's the DM's responsibility to insist that THEY communicate and resolve their issues. Only if that fails and the game is openly disrupted does it become the DM's responsibility to resolve.
I don't actually play D&D anymore, because the only roleplaying group I know in my area is a pack of immature buffoons who like to use rpgs as a tool to manipulate or bully other players. Frankly, I do not want to give those people the time and energy that goes into roleplaying games.
This is exactly why I booted a member of my group. I shared the DM duites with my brother, but he began to abuse the game even to the point of telling one player that during the break between sessions, his character had gotten gang-raped by orcs, and since there were so many of them, he deemed any combat rolls unnecessary. (I repaired this in a later game by having a healer detect implanted false memories, a move which led to a nifty little revenge adventure). My brother had "issues", to be kind, and he actually cried when he got booted. He had messed things up so badly that the rest of the group threatened to leave if I invited him back.
It's too bad that it cost the OP a friendship, but the OP had other friendships to consider as well.
That said, I have never had to boot anyone from a game, but I have had issues with some DMs/Players before. Only time it's been a serious problem was when my roommates and I were playing a living campaign, I believe it was Living Kingdoms of Kalamar, and we went to the house of a buddy of my roomate. This guy was absolutely the most obnoxious person I have ever met, and both of us rubbed each other the wrong way right away. I told my roommates I would not be attending any more games that he would be present at. Which was fine, because he told them I wasn't welcome at his house anymore, even citing other players saying I had offended them (which, my roommates discovered, was an outright lie, since they see those other players on a regular basis and conveyed my apologies if I had offended, they told him that they never had a problem, and, indeed, were sad that I would not be coming back).
But, kicking someone or leaving the game is not always easy. For many of us, the group that we game with is the only such group that we know of, or the only one that is reasonably located for us to be able to play at all.
Gaming is a very social hobby. It requires a significant amount of time and the people you game with often become the core of your social circle. Gaming is supposed to be fun. It isn't meant to be a venue for power games, sexual politics, bullying, or any of the hundreds of other forms of disruptive behavior that might come into play simply because it's a social hobby. Gaming should be done with people you like (or at the barest minimum respect). Gaming is a very specialized hobby. Sometimes it is hard to find a group and sometimes you will have to make compromises if you want to play - but if those compromises are making you miserable then you've lost the reason for making them in the first place.
Sometimes you need to leave, sometimes you need to ask somebody else to leave. I'm not saying that it's best choice, or should ever be the first choice - but it sometimes ends up being the only choice. Sometimes it's nice just to be reminded that you have an out. A lot of people, especially younger players, will get into a mindest where they feel trapped in a situation - and that can make a tolerable problem impossible.
We haven't had to get too messy in our years gaming together. There have been players who were asked to leave for one reason or another. Some of them might call us elitists or snobs today, but we might let things go awhile before making an issue of it because we're friends. One guy would show up drunk with a 12-pack and he smelled. Another guy was a helpless munchkin that made everything less fun for the rest of us. A friend of mine never showed up on time. Delivering the news usually fell to the person who invited the person in, but it depends. Regardless, it not something taken lightly.
Another game by another DM a player got kicked out entirely. He was doing things in and out of game to make me so miserable so that I would leave the game because I annoyed him, and he didn't have the decency to tell me why he was treating me this way or try to work it out. When I told the DM I was on the verge of leaving the game, that was about the time the DM found out what the guy was doing (he bragged to a guy (who is now my boyfriend) what he was doing, none of us saw it coming, it came completely from left field): trying to force me to leave by making me not enjoy the game or my time with my friends. DM found out, got hella ******, kicked him the
out and denounced him as a friend.I regret what that player did because he was my friend (although recently he's trying to worm his way back into my good graces) it still feels like there's a knife in my back somewhere.
But there are some times when the group just doesn't mesh well so a person must be asked to leave, or a player does something so viciously evil to another player that they must be kicked out.
If the friendship can't survive being kicked from a D&D group, it wasn't much of a friendship to begin with.
Real friends don't kick their friends out of group circles.
None of this touchy-feely crap. Noone kicks me out of a group. Cause I'm fricking crazy. I'll key your car and ****. You think I'm bad now. Psshhh, you don't how bad I can be. I holdback when I like you.
That's what alot of these players don't understand. They talk big. But they could never do it. Cause
A: They're wusses. They couldn't handle someone like me slashing their tires, stealing their books, and throwing rocks at their windows.
B: It's not like they have real friends. Comeon, if you're playing D&D, you probably don't have many friends. Let's just be rational here. So therefore it's not in your best interest to burn bridges.
C: I don't see what's so annoying about a bad D&D player. It pales in comparison to the typical weaboo. You ever been to an anime convention? It is horrible! Just a bunchof slutty fifteen year old girls who think they're Japanese cause they know a few words and watch subtitled anime about a catgirl in space or some crap.
I'd like to think that I'm a realist before I'm a geekist. Because yeah, I like science fiction, and fantasy, and roleplaying games. But i don't give into the culture. The culture sucks and is full of apemen. And I would like at some point in my life to have a wife who isn't Gerene Griffaolo or like that police guard from Super Jail. Which is what would happen if I surcomed to the culture...
We pay fricking a hundred dollars for this crap, yet at the gambing table suddenly we're a communism? Screw that crap!
I am Jim Profit, and I am here to ask you a question... Is a player not entitled to his douchebaggery?
"No!" Says the host, it belongs to the poor!
"No!" Says the DM, it belongs to God!
"No!" Says the player from Moscow, it belongs to everyone!
I...rejected...those answers... I chose something different... I chose... The impossible!
I built a campaign where the bard would not fear the censor!
Where the gargantuan...would not be constrained by the small!
Where the paladin would not be bound by...petty...morality!
I chose to build... DEADLANDS!
For those who aren't getting where I got this from:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_8PFBNwAlM
But yeah, in actuallity my Rapture would be a combonation of Paranoia+Call of The Cthulhu+Fatal.
On the note of
Originally Posted by ChaosTurtle View Post
If the friendship can't survive being kicked from a D&D group, it wasn't much of a friendship to begin with.
Both died at the same time, suddenly on the phone that day.
Both died slowly over the years while i watched a couple players rotate through the game
Little_Dragonfly
Another game by another DM a player got kicked out entirely. He was doing things in and out of game to make me so miserable so that I would leave the game because I annoyed him, and he didn't have the decency to tell me why he was treating me this way or try to work it out. When I told the DM I was on the verge of leaving the game, that was about the time the DM found out what the guy was doing (he bragged to a guy (who is now my boyfriend) what he was doing, none of us saw it coming, it came completely from left field): trying to force me to leave by making me not enjoy the game or my time with my friends. DM found out, got hella ******, kicked him the out and denounced him as a friend.Sheihel
I can remember one person I could not stand who caused my normally quiet husband to raise his voice and I left the gaming session early. I reallly tired to get along, but after that gaming became a chore and something i did only because my husband wanted me to. It was the longest, sloggiest period in my limited gaming experience and did not get any better untill that guy left. I'll never do that again, no matter what. Life is just too short.
exactly what Little_Dragonfly and Sheihel said add a dash...
.. of it was more than one person he offended personally over time. They disliked him as a friend .. and told me as a DM and we tried several times to talk, But as a DM i cant do real life social behavior mods
.. add in the drugs, speed booze, smoking
he played everyone's character for them (highly annoying but not the last straw by any stretch)
Enlightened1
I do think that some people are too quick to jump to the 'leave the group' or 'kick 'im out' advice, but it seems the nature of the 'Net that there're always people who, out of less sensitive natures, or deliberate jerkosity, will suggest such things immediately.
you explained my thought beter than i did .. thanks
Question:
What do you do when someone you know is a jackass outside of a game situation.
Do you keep inviting him into your home and asking him to join you for dinner. Or do you find ways to avoid him.
Why should it be any different inside of a game?
A game is a social situation and people who cannot behave in a civil manner need not be and should not be tolerated by those they offend.
Sure - I'd tell them they are being an ass first. But I wouldn't do so actually expecting them to change - it would simply be an act of courtesy.
That said: I think people go to the "leave the group" option because it works as advice.
Not because it is necessarily the right answer, it often is not - but because it presents an immediate solution (you are out of the situation) with obvious costs (need to find a new game, emotional cost as you have outlined). This gives the person a concrete alternative situation to weigh against their current situation, allowing them to compare the two and ask themselves whether the current aggravation is or is not worth staying in that situation. And it also has as an unstated assumption that you will not be able to change the other person, you can only change how you react to that person - something I consider to be true far far more often than not.
Then again - it could just be the age talking. I'm old enough to be willing to be choosy whom I socialize with.
Carl
Enlightened1
I do think that some people are too quick to jump to the 'leave the group' or 'kick 'im out' advice, but it seems the nature of the 'Net that there're always people who, out of less sensitive natures, or deliberate jerkosity, will suggest such things immediately.
Sometimes it is exactly the right thing to do because a jerk personality is someone who was not socialized well, and it was reinforced along the line.
So, cut to the chase and boot him. He was so to speak "hired for the group" under fair pretenses, and is not living up to his end of "Contribute to the fun." no matter what his specific problem is.
invariably in the past when i tried to "work with someone" it failed, and 4 to 6 weeks later, we'd end up booting him anyway. ?This way it saves the month long agony for the group that often kills games dead while it is happening.
(never in real life, I usually become very quite and meek/timid, though with time I loosen up)This partly stems from my lack of sensitivity. I wouldn't say i'm cold but I can openly and blatantly talk about anything and have talked about anything that have made people suddenly metaphorically gasp and wonder why in the blazes I am saying such things. So maybe it seems like i'm totally uncaring about the things I can talk about so easily that would quickly offend other people.
Like abortion or things like that. I know some people who will tell me to shut up the second I even bring it up. Whether i'm for or against something. But I don't like to be held back in what I can or cannot say, infact I LOATHE it. I can't tell you how many clans or things like that I have been kicked out of because of this fact. I'm quick to point out my unpopular speech is protected but that is quickly dismissed by them :p
Oh and being a complainer (get it from my mom) doesn't help either, when I feel slighted I WILL bring it up whether they want to talk about it or not (which usually they don't) and this leads to some awkward situations. Like one time I got in trouble for saying the name jesus in guild chat and said it was against the rules (rules guy was christian or catholic, I forget) I IMMEDIATELY brought up how unfair and draconian that was and after much more complaining I got kicked out). So being a complainer or whistleblower can have it's downside :p
It's funny, in real life i'm VERY quiet and avoid confrontation like the plague but on the net I can become very assertive and confrontational. Maybe it's a representation of how I really want to be but just don't have it in me yet? The walls that real life put up don't exist in the virtual world, it's easier to be how you really want to be I guess.
Oh and maybe how I can hold grudges for years and years don't help either.
Don't take it wrong! I have good friends I have known for many years and they know that the real me is something of a mix between those 2 personas and I only like to be associated with kind and nice people. I'm very odd like that.
I'm quick to point out my unpopular speech is protected but that is quickly dismissed by them :p
Note: Your speech is "protected." As is the right of others to not associate with people whose speech they find offensive or to not assist you in making that speech.
This is particularily true when dealing with privately owned venues such as an internet forum. For example, you do not have a right to free speech on these forums. You have only such rights of expression as WoTC wishes to grant you. More specifically, the government has severely restricted powers to censor you but WoTC has absolute power to censor you. (And likewise for any other privately owned/ operated venue).
Carl
This is particularily true when dealing with privately owned venues such as an internet forum. For example, you do not have a right to free speech on these forums. You have only such rights of expression as WoTC wishes to grant you. More specifically, the government has severely restricted powers to censor you but WoTC has absolute power to censor you.
Yeahyeahyeah blahlblahblah. This is why I write for a communist blog called The Radical. About how libertarians and through "right to property" are nothing but young fascists that would make Bunnito Mussolini blush.
And that's another thing. We're not not suppose to talk about politcs. We're not suppose to talk about anything in fear of the secret police putting us out of our misery in our sleep.
This is why I keep a gun next to me when I sleep...and when I go out in public...because people cannot be trusted...
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=447957074&blogID=468071660
I would love to start an education program where we teach young anarchists how to develop internet viruses for forums who want "absolute power to censor you" and bombs made out of soap for government who "has severe powers to censor you".
Anything they can do. You can do. You're not their slave, you're a man. And a man chooses, a slave obeys...
I also in a speech gave a Trotskyist a lecture on violence and the revolution that. "No human being is morally obliged to be peaceful when he does not have the means to be. When you are being oppressed and your only option is abiding or fighting, you cannot be judged for not "talking things out". If talking things out were capable of working, we wouldn't have these problems. Che Guevera knew this..."
I was a very unlikely suspect to be such a contributer to this underground group. You know, generally that I get called chaotic evil and really seem to have a very deconstructionist/nihilist view on life and politics. Not to meation I like money, just not for other people. I want money for myself, so I can buy my girlfriend things and be a gangsta' lol!
But it turnsout I make a damn good communist.:P
Mankind ill needs a savior, such as you!
What is a man? But a miserable pile of secrets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avRuZ4QLWek
"What you want do is, what you want do is just.
Break the rules, and you'll see the truth!"
Originally Posted by Syrsuro
You have only such rights of expression as WoTC wishes to grant you. More specifically, the government has severely restricted powers to censor you but WoTC has absolute power to censor you.
I would love to start an education program where we teach young anarchists how to develop internet viruses for forums who want "absolute power to censor you" and bombs made out of soap for government who "has severe powers to censor you".
Just what we need. Anarchists with reading comprehension problems.
Syrsuro: the government has severely restricted powers to censor you
Mr. Anarchist: for government who "has severe powers to censor you".
Carl
Now you can go and feel bad.
Maybe I'm dyslexic. Did that ever occur to you?
Now you can go and feel bad.
I'm not sure I feel any safer with dyslexic anarchist.
Especially one who carries guns and advocates violence.
Not to mention a dyslexic anarchist who carries guns, advocates violence and sounds paranoid.
(On the other hand, I do see potential for a character there....)
Carl
Wow this thread has wandered. Can we get back to the topic, please?
(Examines poster's Sig: )Why So Serious?
(Examines poster's Sig: )Why So Serious?
Ok, can we at least move the topic off of dyslexic censorship anarchists with guns?
Perhaps we should speak more about...GASOLINE!We try to make major gaming decisions as a group and let each other have imput. For instance I am the only one in the group who does not like roling for stats and I am to the point where I really, really prefer pointbuy. If the group insisted I roll, which they have in the past, I would suck it up and deal with it. Thankfully it is a good group and we reached a compromise this campaign where now I am the only one who uses point buy, while everyone else rolls.
No, seriously.
The group I joined consists of 1 person from a previous group that I joined about 7 years ago, 1 person who joined that group about the same time I did, 1 person who joined about a year later, and one person who joined about a year after that. I did not know any of them well when I joined and the people I did know well no longer are part of the group (one moved, the other just does not have the time). I am not going to leave the group unless there is a real good reason for it, since I am friends with them. If they make a gaming decision I do not like, even switching to a different edition or game, I will chose to stick it out since they are more important then the game itself now.
We try to make major gaming decisions as a group and let each other have imput. For instance I am the only one in the group who does not like roling for stats and I am to the point where I really, really prefer pointbuy. If the group insisted I roll, which they have in the past, I would suck it up and deal with it. Thankfully it is a good group and we reached a compromise this campaign where now I am the only one who uses point buy, while everyone else rolls.
Just to get back on topic: I would never leave a group or advocate leaving a group over issues such as "what game to play", "how do we create characters" or even "what edition are we going to use".
Using social blackmail ("play it my way or I'm going home") is immature and inappropriate in any social situation (or at least it's inappropriate for anyone over the age of 9). Gaming is a social activity and that kind of behavior is inappropriate. Period.
I would only leave a group or suggest someone else leave a group over abuses of the social situation - i.e. player who are incapable of acting in a civil manner.
Ironically, someone who throws a hissy fit over such trivial issues is failing to behave in a civil manner and I probably would suggest they leave if that is how they are going to behave. In this case, it sounds like you and your group discussed your differing preferences and came to a mutually aggreable compromise - because I'd rather not assume you got your way by threatening to go home (or to hold your breath until you turned blue) to get your way.
Practically: I leave such decisions up to the DM. The DM decides what to play, how to play, etc. There is obviously room for discussion and compromise - but if push comes to shove, the DM makes the final call. And if the players don't like it, it's time for one of them to step up and DM (and it's time for the former DM to play along by their set of rules).
Carl