Illusions and Spellcraft 3.5 - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Illusions and Spellcraft 3.5

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
deviknyte
Jan 03, 2010 17:29:17 Is there a feat that makes it impossible or harder for someone to spellcraft illusions?

Or a feat where someone will think your casting a different spell?
#2
brassbaboon
Jan 03, 2010 22:45:14
Is there a feat that makes it impossible or harder for someone to spellcraft illusions?

Or a feat where someone will think your casting a different spell?

You can increase the DC of your spell several ways, including feats (spell focus, I think?). As a DM if a player uses such a feat to specifically make the spellcraft check harder, I'll grant the bonus to DC on the spellcraft check. This isn't RAW I don't think, but it makes sense to me.

I've thought in the past of making a new metamagic feat for this purpose, but I've never done it.
#3
brassbaboon
Jan 03, 2010 22:57:18 Going through my Heroforge spreadsheet I see a feat from the Complete Mage that causes illusion spells to dazzle anyone within 30'. I'd probably rule that gives a +1 to DC for spellcraft checks also.

Because there are feats that offer a +2 to spellcraft checks, it would seem balanced to have a feat which grants a +2 to spellcraft DC. Or if it were restricted to illusion, maybe even a +4.

In fact I might even go for a feat called something like "unique spellcaster" which grants a +4 to spellcraft DC for any single school of magic. The fluff behind it would be "you have developed a unique style to your spellcasting from one school that makes it more difficult for your spells from that school to be identified with spellcraft checks."
#4
Gurv
Jan 04, 2010 11:29:57 Are you giving players a free Spellcraft check to recognize something as an illusion? I wouldn't.

An individual should only have a chance to see through an illusion that they have interacted with. That chance should be resolved with a Will save, not a Spellcraft check. To interact with an illusion takes slightly more than casual awareness of it. Physical contact with the illusion qualifies, of course, as does being the subject of actions by the illusion. An illusion can also be detected by more careful observation, but this should take the form of an action: actually making a Spot, Search, or Listen check in the vicinity of the illusion, perhaps conversing with or attempting to hide from it. Anything that involves interacting with the illusion rather than merely being in its presence. Naturally, a save is called for whenever an illusion does something that the character would not expect from it (what is expected varies depending on how much magic exists in a campaign, of course).

Once the Will save is passed, the character recognizes that the illusion is not what it seems to be (and may guess that it is an illusion). A spellcraft check is appropriate at this time, with success revealing the spell in effect and thus confirming that it is indeed an illusion.
#5
brassbaboon
Jan 04, 2010 21:50:58 I took the question to be about casting an illusion spell. As far as I know casting any spell allows a spellcraft check.
#6
Gurv
Jan 05, 2010 11:04:52
Perhaps the OP was talking about others being present when someone casts an illusion spell, thus gaining a Spellcraft check. Rereading the post, I think that it what he meant.

This has been an annoyance to me in the past. Virtually anyone with the Spellcraft skill will be able to identify a spell being cast. There are a few tricks a spellcaster can use to get around this. First of all, if the spell's verbal and somatic components cannot be observed, then by the RAW, no Spellcraft check is allowed.

Of course, you have to come up with reasonable excuses to prevent others from seeing the casting. Otherwise it just becomes annoying. The best excuse is distance: you could require a Spot or Listen check before allowing a Spellcraft check. Remember to take into account penalties for size: a Medium-sized creature's hands are Tiny objects, and his gestures are likely no more than Small in size. Or you could just penalize the Spellcraft check for distance.

If the caster is Hiding, then no Spellcraft check. Invisibility and spells that grant concealment are useful.
#7
deviknyte
Jan 06, 2010 9:19:32 I was talking about when the person was casting it. But also a sitting illusion can be spellcrafted RAW, or detect magiced RAW.

Another big problem is that they know the spellcasters are illusionist. So they are all going to be crying disbelief left and right.

All verbal components require loud shouting so that one is hard to get by. But does that mean a Silent Still spell is uncraftable?
#8
Gurv
Jan 06, 2010 12:48:32
I was talking about when the person was casting it. But also a sitting illusion can be spellcrafted RAW, or detect magiced RAW.

A sitting illusion can be spellcrafted, yes. But not automatically, without a reason to do so. A player should ask to make a spellcraft check. If a character doesn't know that a spell is present, then he shouldn't make a spellcraft check to identify it. Further, if a robed figure standing 70 feet away says some word and hurls a firey bead at you that explodes into a 20-foot radius fireball, most people don't bother second-guessing the spell. See my previous post about interacting with an illusion to determine whether a character has reason to make a spellcraft check.

Another big problem is that they know the spellcasters are illusionist. So they are all going to be crying disbelief left and right.

Well, that was a mistake on the illusionists part. There are a couple of things that you can do.

First of all, if someone is actively trying to disbelieve an illusion, then it doesn't make sense to continue reacting to it. If you truly believe that the orc attacking you isn't real, then you stop ducking the battle-axe. If you're sure that the fireball is an illusion, you don't stop, drop, and roll. Long story short: anyone claiming to disbelieve should be considered flat-footed if it turns out that they're wrong. No save either. Tell the players they can't have it both ways.

Illusionists with real talent learn to take advantage of their subject's assumptions, and that includes assumptions about illusionists. Cast a few spells that do real damage, and your foes won't want to risk it anymore. Use an illusion to hide something unimportant, and your foes will seek it relentlessly. Summon some real imps to go with that pit fiend illusion, and put the illusion in the lava flow so that no one can check it out. Cast project image when no one is looking, then cast displacement from hiding: every time someone tries to hit your image, roll percentile dice and shake your head. Cast invisibility on a wall and stand on the other side: instant line-of-sight without line-of-effect.

All verbal components require loud shouting so that one is hard to get by. But does that mean a Silent Still spell is uncraftable?

What are you talking about? Where do you get your information? A spellcaster must be able to speak in a strong voice. Thats different from loud shouting.
#9
MrCustomer
Jan 06, 2010 21:21:00
Is there a feat that makes it impossible or harder for someone to spellcraft illusions?

Or a feat where someone will think your casting a different spell?

Well increasing your DC for the spell, Spell Focus, Illusionist Specialist and the like will increase the DC and thus make it hard for a spellcraft check to recognize it.

The Skill Rick in Complete Scoundrel called False Theurgy you need 8 Ranks in Bluff or Slight of Hands and 8 ranks in Spellcraft) can be used to make the spell you are casting appear to be another spell of the same level. This could be used to not only disguise that you are casting your spell, but to fool them into thinking you are casting something else instead.

For example make it look like you are casting haste on yourself when in fact you are casting greater Illusion.

As well other feats will make it harder to see what spell you are casting, Sillent Spell and Still Spell for Instance. In order to identify a spell while it's being cast (DC 15 + Spell Level, etc) they must be able to see or hear the verbal or somatic components, but if you use Silent and Still Spell then they will not be able to identify it at all. Identifying the spell that is already in place is harder to do (20+Spell Level etc) It's alot harder to detect using spellcraft after the effect.

Also keep in mind that they would have to have a reason to examine the illusion to use spellcraft to detect it, this is something they would only do if they were suspicious. They don't automatically get a Spellcraft check, it is something that has to be declared.

As well an Illusionist specializes in illusion spells, but they can cast other spells as well. It gives them a +2 DC for illusion spells and an extra spell slot for illusion spells. Not all spells cast by an illusionist is an illusion, not even all the spells from the illusion school, Color Spray, Blur, Fasinate, Invisibility, Displacement, Phantasmal Killer, these are all illusionist spells that disbelieing won't help. An Illusionist with a Greater Invisible Warrior hirling, or perhaps he casts an illusion on a creature and has it move with them, casting A illusion of creatures to make it look like they are summoned and then summoning an actual creature, once the PCs figure out they are fighting illsions they will be shocked when they are actually attacked by a real creature.

Create an illusion of a dragon and then cast a Fireball spell on the party, they will be convinced the dragon is real.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 deviknyte Jan 03, 2010 17:29:17	Is there a feat that makes it impossible or harder for someone to spellcraft illusions? Or a feat where someone will think your casting a different spell?
#2 brassbaboon Jan 03, 2010 22:45:14	Is there a feat that makes it impossible or harder for someone to spellcraft illusions? Or a feat where someone will think your casting a different spell? You can increase the DC of your spell several ways, including feats (spell focus, I think?). As a DM if a player uses such a feat to specifically make the spellcraft check harder, I'll grant the bonus to DC on the spellcraft check. This isn't RAW I don't think, but it makes sense to me. I've thought in the past of making a new metamagic feat for this purpose, but I've never done it.
#3 brassbaboon Jan 03, 2010 22:57:18	Going through my Heroforge spreadsheet I see a feat from the Complete Mage that causes illusion spells to dazzle anyone within 30'. I'd probably rule that gives a +1 to DC for spellcraft checks also. Because there are feats that offer a +2 to spellcraft checks, it would seem balanced to have a feat which grants a +2 to spellcraft DC. Or if it were restricted to illusion, maybe even a +4. In fact I might even go for a feat called something like "unique spellcaster" which grants a +4 to spellcraft DC for any single school of magic. The fluff behind it would be "you have developed a unique style to your spellcasting from one school that makes it more difficult for your spells from that school to be identified with spellcraft checks."
#4 Gurv Jan 04, 2010 11:29:57	Are you giving players a free Spellcraft check to recognize something as an illusion? I wouldn't. An individual should only have a chance to see through an illusion that they have interacted with. That chance should be resolved with a Will save, not a Spellcraft check. To interact with an illusion takes slightly more than casual awareness of it. Physical contact with the illusion qualifies, of course, as does being the subject of actions by the illusion. An illusion can also be detected by more careful observation, but this should take the form of an action: actually making a Spot, Search, or Listen check in the vicinity of the illusion, perhaps conversing with or attempting to hide from it. Anything that involves interacting with the illusion rather than merely being in its presence. Naturally, a save is called for whenever an illusion does something that the character would not expect from it (what is expected varies depending on how much magic exists in a campaign, of course). Once the Will save is passed, the character recognizes that the illusion is not what it seems to be (and may guess that it is an illusion). A spellcraft check is appropriate at this time, with success revealing the spell in effect and thus confirming that it is indeed an illusion.
#5 brassbaboon Jan 04, 2010 21:50:58	I took the question to be about casting an illusion spell. As far as I know casting any spell allows a spellcraft check.
#6 Gurv Jan 05, 2010 11:04:52	Perhaps the OP was talking about others being present when someone casts an illusion spell, thus gaining a Spellcraft check. Rereading the post, I think that it what he meant. This has been an annoyance to me in the past. Virtually anyone with the Spellcraft skill will be able to identify a spell being cast. There are a few tricks a spellcaster can use to get around this. First of all, if the spell's verbal and somatic components cannot be observed, then by the RAW, no Spellcraft check is allowed. Of course, you have to come up with reasonable excuses to prevent others from seeing the casting. Otherwise it just becomes annoying. The best excuse is distance: you could require a Spot or Listen check before allowing a Spellcraft check. Remember to take into account penalties for size: a Medium-sized creature's hands are Tiny objects, and his gestures are likely no more than Small in size. Or you could just penalize the Spellcraft check for distance. If the caster is Hiding, then no Spellcraft check. Invisibility and spells that grant concealment are useful.
#7 deviknyte Jan 06, 2010 9:19:32	I was talking about when the person was casting it. But also a sitting illusion can be spellcrafted RAW, or detect magiced RAW. Another big problem is that they know the spellcasters are illusionist. So they are all going to be crying disbelief left and right. All verbal components require loud shouting so that one is hard to get by. But does that mean a Silent Still spell is uncraftable?
#8 Gurv Jan 06, 2010 12:48:32	I was talking about when the person was casting it. But also a sitting illusion can be spellcrafted RAW, or detect magiced RAW. A sitting illusion can be spellcrafted, yes. But not automatically, without a reason to do so. A player should ask to make a spellcraft check. If a character doesn't know that a spell is present, then he shouldn't make a spellcraft check to identify it. Further, if a robed figure standing 70 feet away says some word and hurls a firey bead at you that explodes into a 20-foot radius fireball, most people don't bother second-guessing the spell. See my previous post about interacting with an illusion to determine whether a character has reason to make a spellcraft check. Another big problem is that they know the spellcasters are illusionist. So they are all going to be crying disbelief left and right. Well, that was a mistake on the illusionists part. There are a couple of things that you can do. First of all, if someone is actively trying to disbelieve an illusion, then it doesn't make sense to continue reacting to it. If you truly believe that the orc attacking you isn't real, then you stop ducking the battle-axe. If you're sure that the fireball is an illusion, you don't stop, drop, and roll. Long story short: anyone claiming to disbelieve should be considered flat-footed if it turns out that they're wrong. No save either. Tell the players they can't have it both ways. Illusionists with real talent learn to take advantage of their subject's assumptions, and that includes assumptions about illusionists. Cast a few spells that do real damage, and your foes won't want to risk it anymore. Use an illusion to hide something unimportant, and your foes will seek it relentlessly. Summon some real imps to go with that pit fiend illusion, and put the illusion in the lava flow so that no one can check it out. Cast project image when no one is looking, then cast displacement from hiding: every time someone tries to hit your image, roll percentile dice and shake your head. Cast invisibility on a wall and stand on the other side: instant line-of-sight without line-of-effect. All verbal components require loud shouting so that one is hard to get by. But does that mean a Silent Still spell is uncraftable? What are you talking about? Where do you get your information? A spellcaster must be able to speak in a strong voice. Thats different from loud shouting.
#9 MrCustomer Jan 06, 2010 21:21:00	Is there a feat that makes it impossible or harder for someone to spellcraft illusions? Or a feat where someone will think your casting a different spell? Well increasing your DC for the spell, Spell Focus, Illusionist Specialist and the like will increase the DC and thus make it hard for a spellcraft check to recognize it. The Skill Rick in Complete Scoundrel called False Theurgy you need 8 Ranks in Bluff or Slight of Hands and 8 ranks in Spellcraft) can be used to make the spell you are casting appear to be another spell of the same level. This could be used to not only disguise that you are casting your spell, but to fool them into thinking you are casting something else instead. For example make it look like you are casting haste on yourself when in fact you are casting greater Illusion. As well other feats will make it harder to see what spell you are casting, Sillent Spell and Still Spell for Instance. In order to identify a spell while it's being cast (DC 15 + Spell Level, etc) they must be able to see or hear the verbal or somatic components, but if you use Silent and Still Spell then they will not be able to identify it at all. Identifying the spell that is already in place is harder to do (20+Spell Level etc) It's alot harder to detect using spellcraft after the effect. Also keep in mind that they would have to have a reason to examine the illusion to use spellcraft to detect it, this is something they would only do if they were suspicious. They don't automatically get a Spellcraft check, it is something that has to be declared. As well an Illusionist specializes in illusion spells, but they can cast other spells as well. It gives them a +2 DC for illusion spells and an extra spell slot for illusion spells. Not all spells cast by an illusionist is an illusion, not even all the spells from the illusion school, Color Spray, Blur, Fasinate, Invisibility, Displacement, Phantasmal Killer, these are all illusionist spells that disbelieing won't help. An Illusionist with a Greater Invisible Warrior hirling, or perhaps he casts an illusion on a creature and has it move with them, casting A illusion of creatures to make it look like they are summoned and then summoning an actual creature, once the PCs figure out they are fighting illsions they will be shocked when they are actually attacked by a real creature. Create an illusion of a dragon and then cast a Fireball spell on the party, they will be convinced the dragon is real.