Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Centauri Oct 07, 2009 23:48:14	I played D&D last weekend and while it was a fun session overall with some good laughs, there were some very frustrating moments for me and at one point I lost patience and snapped at the DM. I apologized to him and the group and there don't appear to be any hard feelings. There also don't appear to be any changes forthcoming, so I can expect our games to be just as frustrating, at least in the near term. I've been on the other side of enough posts like this, and read enough advice articles that I know the basic advice: talk to the people involved, grin and bear it, or find a new group. I'll certainly try to bear it better next time, and I'll find a new group if I need to, but the usual advice I like to give is to talk - I'm just having trouble following it. A big part of the problem is that the DM is, in his words "not that experienced" and still "a bit stiff," which seems to lead him to block anything we do that's the least bit unexpected. At the same time, I think he wants to let us do our own thing, and not lead us by the hand through the adventure, which is admirable. The combination of the two traits, however, has led us to banging up against dead-ends time and again. In our investigations of mysaterious goings on, people in the area are either extremely close-mouthed or very argumentative, not wanting to get involved or admit to any crimes. Whenever we express frustration, he says he's playing the characters in a realistic manner, saying what they'd really say. The arguments in particular are extremely boring for me, as I wish he'd just come out and tell us we can't talk our way through, rather than waste game time. If he were asking for advice on how to keep his players from getting frustrated, I'd suggest that he say yes more, find a way to let player suggests have effect, and not be afraid to give them more information. The trouble is, he's not asking for advice and I'm not some outside observer. If I were to make the above suggestions, I'm worried they'd come off as whining or wanting an easier time of it in the adventure. In reality, I'm fine with adventures being hard, as long as their hard like a puzzle, and not like a 100' foot jump. Another issue is that I'm hardly a paragon of Dungeon Master ability myself. He's played under me a few times, and I think I've done alright, though I had trouble balancing encounters in 3.5 and hadn't really grokked "Yes, and..." back then. I wince to think about it. This puts me in a bit of a pot-kettle-black, situation. Finally, because he is an inexperienced DM, I don't want to discourage him. So, how can I talk to him to try get more of the kind of roleplaying (both combat and non) I'm interested in? I should add that as far as I know, the other players don't have a problem with him, though I certainly sense frustration from them after lengthy and unproductive in-character arguments with his NPCs. I'd talk to them for their advice, but I don't want to undermine the DM, or make it seem like I'm doing an end run. Thinking about this, I suppose I should put some focus on what he does right. Fortunately I record our games, so I can go back and listen to them.
#2 arctostaphyls Oct 08, 2009 7:05:34	Yeah,  most certainly, praise him for what he is doing right before you suggest any changes or point out any thing you think is wrong.  I'm no expert DnD player, but I have supervised fellow employees at several jobs and what you are describing fits those situations too.  Tell him two or three things you really like about his quest so far and then when you've shown you are not just trying to gripe at him, bring up the thing about his quest that bothers you the most.  The more specific you can be about it (giving examples that illustrate it especially) the better.  I know it isn't easy to do, but make sure you point out that you are disliking something about the quest and not about the guy himself.    If, for example, the long-winded talks with NPCs is what is grinding you down the most, you might talk to him alone sometime before the next gaming session and say something along the lines of "I can see you put a lot of thought and time into these NPC encounters.  That's great.  It helps flesh out the world of your quest more.  However (enter your player character's name here) is itching for more action.  He'd just love it if he could kick some serious butt sooner than later."   Maybe part of your DM's inexperience is that he doesn't realize that he can make changes to his quest once he thinks he's done writing it.  I think sometimes, DM's think they've written and published a novel or something and we the players are just along for the ride.  Once he gets some feedback from players like you and others, maybe he will see that DnD is more of shared and interactive experience.  And that it's okay to add or subtract encounters or change asptects of them to suit your players better so everyone has fun.  I'm glad you are concerned about his feelings and want to encourage him to keep trying.  That's great!  I've heard too many horror stories from other DM's on this and other forums about players who are disrespectful sometimes even mean-spirited towards them while they are in game sessions.  There is not call for that no matter how grevious a player might think the DM's apparent error is.  Constructive criticism (especially delivered one on one where there is less chance for embarassment) is always appreciated in any situation. I hope your DnD sessions go better.  Sounds like you guys are having fun for the most part.  Don't spoil it altogether by making mountains out of molehills.  At the same time, don't let what's bugging you build up inside to the point that you aren't having any fun any more either.   Good Luck!
#3 gargs454 Oct 08, 2009 12:18:54	Obviously without knowing the exact situation, its a little difficult to give specific advice, but I think the approach to take is to ask him how your characters could be going about this different. For instance: You:  Hey man, great session!  I tell you though Soveliss (or whatever your character's name is) is really getting frustrated that there doesn't appear to be any way to sneak into the castle.  Charging through the guards at the front gate's not exactly his style.  Is he just missing an obvious person/group that he should be talking to about how to get in? DM:  Hmmm, yeah, going through the front gate's probably not the best idea out there, it would seem likely that somebody would know another way in. This scenario shows that while "you" are frustrated, you are transferring your frustration to your character, while simultaneously asking the DM for a clue and praising him.  The DM's answer suggests that yeah, you've missed something along the way.  In this case, at the next session start making streetwise, history, diplomacy checks, etc.  Some DM's need to be prodded a little more than others to know that you are asking for a skill check while roleplaying and might just let the roleplay go on with no change if you don't explicitly state you are making a check. Of course, if the DM responds "No, he really hasn't missed anything." then you've potentially got a bigger problem on your hands. Basically though you are letting him know that it seems as though the party is being herded toward the train while placing the blame on yourself for your inability to see the hook.
#4 dragonsblood Oct 08, 2009 16:40:23	Suggest to your DM that if the players do something he doesn't expect, that he announce a 5 minute break while he thinks about how to react.
#5 tomcardin Oct 08, 2009 21:37:21	If I was the DM and my NPCs were being very closed lipped about a topic...you can bet they won't talk to you unless you can earn their trust in some way. Some may want money or other bribes...others will want you to prove you are trustworthy especially if it is something that to tell you would be to put themselves in danger if you should spread it around. Now if your DM is not even allowing these actions to loosen up the NPCs then he is being unreasonably difficult. It is definitely time to start requesting diplomacy, insight and intimidation checks. If that fails then your solutions might lie outside the game with a personal chat with the DM. If that fails... its time to take direction into your own hands...talk in character with your groupmates and tell them that you think you know what is going on...you are going to leap to a conclusion, and follow through with it. Follow through hard! Don't throw your hands up in the air and wait for the DM to give you direction. You probably have a clue to act upon already,  explain in character to your group that this is what they should do..I can't advise what to do because I have no clue what the situation really is so here is an example: The princess is missing! The king fears she has been kidnapped and enlists your groups aid to find her...you start asking around with the guards and servants of the palace to see if they saw anything strange or know of anyone who would harm the princess or wants to harm the king through her... At this point they are all silent as lambs...If they saw something they fear reprecussions if the bad guy should find out that they blabbed. Or perhaps they fear the king if he should find out that they know of something the princess was "into" that they didn't tell him about and now its too late. You have NOTHING to go on! You are going to go find out who some of the younger noblemen are...you are going to assume that one of them has taken her because he loves her and he will MAKE her his any way he can. You are going to go to the king and tell him this is your suspicion and you would like his permission to search this nobleman's estate top to bottom for clues. Now when the king asks how you know of this to be you need to tell him that it all makes sense from what you have "observed" and you have a gut instinct in these matters...you are also going to play upon his fear of disloyalty among his noblemen by assuring him that this guy is up to know good, you can tell just by looking at him. Now the DM has a choice here...he can have the king throw you out on your ear in which case his adventure he set up is over. He can have the king refuse your request at which point you can press the king himself for more clues - "what makes you so sure this nobleman is innocent? I tell you sire he was seen lurking about the palace at odd hours the night before the princess was missing!" now the DM can say to you "hey! nobody told you that!" to which you say "Nope, nobody told me that,  but the king doesn't know that...I can tell this guy is guilty so I have to MAKE him believe me somehow!" At this point the whole thing could break down. The DM may still not allow you to lie to the king, in which case you have to walk away from the quest unless the DM will give you a clue you CAN follow. If he still doesn't capitulate then its time to go out and look for orcs to kill...his quest is dead. If he does allow you to lie to the king and the king lets you seach the nobleman estate then have fun doing it..look for goodies..trump up more evidence and work this guy over - at this point the DM is willingly allowing you to wreck his game, and has no clue how the hell to deal with a simple quest. So have fun! It is my guess that the DM will start laying clues in front of you to get you on the right path as soon as he realises what you are doing. This is better than going on strike and leaving the game...this actually gives him the opportunity to correct the issue and throw in more adventure at the same time.
#6 DanTracker Oct 09, 2009 7:16:14	don't forget to throw in some die rolls too just to make sure the DM knows you're still playing the game and not simply making your own campaign which he has got to figure out.
#7 cymbeline Oct 09, 2009 7:31:31	DMs union here. It's not an easy job, its hard to self-teach, and some people just can't do it as well as others. More or less the only way to learn to be a better DM, is to play in a game that is DM'd by someone better. And in that game, instead of just waiting for your turn to fireball the orcs, actually pay attention to what the DM is doing and how to control the game and players. If someone is set on improving as a DM, I can only suggest going to a con or bringing in a top drawer DM for a game, just to get some pointers. Otherwise, you can always try reading transcripts or seeing if there are any videos on the net. Although this is a fairly boring option. As a player - that's the only advice I can give.
#8 warcolonel Oct 09, 2009 12:13:29	Nice throw-back to Stranger in a Strange Land with 'grokked'. Otherwise, do what everyone is saying: talk to him and explain why things are frustrating you.
#9 sanityfaerie Oct 09, 2009 15:40:25	If/when you do confront him about stuff, openly acknowledging your own prior faults in the area will probably help.  First, it helps if he somehow thinks that you were the example to emulate, and second, it helps deal with the "well who are you to say things about that" issue.  It also implies (truthfully) that any flaws in his style are the natural result of being a new DM, rather than faults that he has personally.