I had a nasty problem in my last D&D table top session. We play by 3.5 rules with not many house rules.
In this session, my character was killed in her sleep by a fellow PC and I took exception to how it happened. Basically, the attacker cast Hold Person, I rolled a ST and failed (DC 14, rolled 9 with all modifiers included) and then I was attacked for 6 rounds without waking up.
When I pointed to the DM that I should have had one saving throw per round, he said to me it didn't matter because there was this rule he had read in the PHB or the DMG which said the other PC could have killed me instantly since I was asleep and held with only one attack (kind of slit throat).
Now, I checked the rules in the PHB and the only one I saw that could relate is the Coup de Grace. This, however, is not instant kill: there is damage dealt and there is a saving throw against death, but it's a fort save and I could still have survived it.
I didn't see the DMG. The DM said he would later tell me the rule, but as things have soured a bit between us meanwhile, I'd rather ask here if anyone knows what this rule might be.
Thank you all.
But really it just sounds like he wanted your char dead so he/she is dead. kinda messed up if ya ask me.
Any special reason for the night time murdering?
If your sleeping and the person dosn't wake you as they get close to you then ya a slit of the neck and your dead
But really it just sounds like he wanted your char dead so he/she is dead. kinda messed up if ya ask me.
Any special reason for the night time murdering?
Well, evil character who wants to kill someone to be an Assassin (Prestige Class). Also, the player since the start of the campaign used to say he wanted to kill someone, but somehow I always thought he was playing/joking.
He plays a Draconian (the campaign is set in Dragonlance), and the defining characteristic is that he thinks all the other races hate draconians so he hates them in turn.
Your DM hosed you, not just with the rules, but by allowing an evil PC into the group and letting him kill your character in his sleep. No class, no style all the way around.
Assuming the auto-crit from the Coup De Grace (which would also have gotten Sneak Attack, since I'm assuming the attacker was a rogue, since you said he was gunning for Assassin) didn't kill you outright, you would then have had a Fortitude Save, DC 10+damage dealt (good luck). You would have then gotten a saving throw against the Hold Person.
Your DM hosed you, not just with the rules, but by allowing an evil PC into the group and letting him kill your character in his sleep. No class, no style all the way around.
I had 81hp when it started. The attacker was a rogue using a dagger. He would deal 2d4 + 2d6 + 2 each round, for a max of 22 and an average of 14 each round. I had +11 in Fort saves. To beat the average DC, I'd have to roll 13. To beat max I'd have to roll 21. I still think I had a fair chance of surviving that. And since Hold Person's DC was 14 (DM told me), I only needed an 11 to get moving again and replying back.
I was really mad at him, you know.
I agree w/ a previous [poster that there is something more going on issue wise w/ you group...either fix it or leave the group.
I had +11 in Fort saves. And since Hold Person's DC was 14 (DM told me), I only needed an 11 to get moving again and replying back.
I must be missing something here, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
First thing, Hold Person requires a Will Save.
Second, If for some reason your DM made a Fort Save you said you have +11 to Fort yet only rolled a 9 (with bonuses). The math doesn't add up.
So, to me it looks like the saves got messed up between "Hold Person" (Will = DC 14 in this case) and "Coup de Grace" (Fort = DC 10 + damage dealt).
Now, even if you survived the damage of the Coup de Grace hit, but failed the save. You would still die (there wouldn't have been successive hits).
But then again, such a scenario rarely happens.
1. There was no challenge to the kill, so it doesn't really prove anything to the guild.
2. He has demonstrated an utter lack of loyalty to even his closest companions. Even an assassin's guild will value loyalty, and he has shown he's not trustworthy.
3. Unless he was being observed (or had previous orders), there's no proof that he even did it.
I must be missing something here, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
First thing, Hold Person requires a Will Save.
Second, If for some reason your DM made a Fort Save you said you have +11 to Fort yet only rolled a 9 (with bonuses). The math doesn't add up.
So, to me it looks like the saves got messed up between "Hold Person" (Will = DC 14 in this case) and "Coup de Grace" (Fort = DC 10 + damage dealt).
Now, even if you survived the damage of the Coup de Grace hit, but failed the save. You would still die (there wouldn't have been successive hits).
There is some confusion here. I rolled 9 for the Will Save, DC 14 and lost. I was arguing that had I been given a Coup de Grace I could still pass it, even if I had to roll a natural 20 to beat almost maximum damage.
But the point is that I should have had a roll against the Hold Person each round it was in effect, not just the first.
As for the other comments, thank you all for your opinions. I'm considering leaving the group, but since they are my friends (aren't they always? It seems that close friends always think there is never a problem) I'm loathe to go. I've had a heated argument with the DM, not with the player because I think this is a DM problem. And I'm not sure what I'm doing next. I have several options:
1. Play by their rules, make an evil character and derail the game so people are forced to debate and realize this is not a good way to enjoy the game (variant A: focus on revenge on the player killer's character; variant B: be general evil, make game miserable for everybody else)
2. Force an argument with everybody, outside the game table, and then decide
3. Leave the game
I'm leaning towards 2, but 1 is a strong temptation at the moment.
Note: I never knew he wanted to be an Assassin. The DM told me after the fact. I think nobody in the party knows that.
There is some confusion here. I rolled 9 for the Will Save, DC 14 and lost. I was arguing that had I been given a Coup de Grace I could still pass it, even if I had to roll a natural 20 to beat almost maximum damage.
Thanks for clearing that up.
But the point is that I should have had a roll against the Hold Person each round it was in effect, not just the first.
Agreed. Though nothing stops it from being a house rule that you only get one roll. However, people need to be made aware of those rules.
I've made similar mistakes as DM (as in not giving the appropriate rolls) and I usually talk the player(s) that have the greivance. The result either comes up that that is how those rolls will be made through out for all parties involved. Or it will revert to the normal rules (with possible changes on how the affected person was effected).
And I'm not sure what I'm doing next. I have several options:
1. Play by their rules, make an evil character and derail the game so people are forced to debate and realize this is not a good way to enjoy the game (variant A: focus on revenge on the player killer's character; variant B: be general evil, make game miserable for everybody else)
Where it can indeed be fun to fight evil with evil. Consider making a character so good that it interferes with their plans. Nothing says love like the paladin in full plate who won't leave the side of the thief/assassin. Ultimately have fun with it. I know it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth as to what happened, but if you start down the path of revenge the game will quickly get out of hand and no fun for anyone.
2. Force an argument with everybody, outside the game table, and then decide
Good idea, but wouldn't come at it from such an agressive attitude. It puts everyone you are talking to (usually) into an aggressive defensive disposition. To which the will be very unlikely to hear any valid points you have to make. They will likely only perceive that you are whining.
3. Leave the game
Certainly an option, but would try to work things out first.
As for the manner in which you were killed, it's been a long time since I played 3e RAW, but sounds like you may have gotten hosed.
Also, was there an in-game reason your character was chosen, or was that player just being a dick? Even evil guys can have friends and loyalty, or even if they're completely self-absorbed they probably realize that more swords at their side = less chance of them dying. I've allowed PvP in my games, but there tended to be a reason other than "I felt like it". And the thought that he would kill an ally over any other random person to get into the guild sounds a little implausible.
2. Force an argument with everybody, outside the game table, and then decide
You're close to the right thing here. Don't force an argument; have a discussion. There's a difference. As you said, these guys are your friends. So you should be able to sit down and talk this out without resorting to calling somebody a
or whatever. Absolutely be honest about your issue and concerns, but there's really little need to argue.As one final point, I'll just mention that just because somebody is your friend doesn't mean you and that person will mesh well at the game table. I've gamed with friends where it just doesn't work - even though we got along just fine away from the game table.
The guy thinks about this, and realises that he has no chance against this master. The man is simply too well trained, far too skilled, for him to have any chance of beating. He refuses to even attempt, knowing that he would be killed if he were to attack and fail.
The master assassin smiles, and tells him he has passed the final exam. "We are not murderers. We only end a life if we are paid for it, and paid well. You were not being paid, so you have shown yourself to be a gentleman worthy of our guild".
Basically, completely the opposite of the 3.5 assassins prestige class, and yet so much more believeable. They have a code of honour, they have rules, and they are still cold blooded killers, albeit ones who object greatly to the term 'kill'. They prefer 'inhume'.
You're close to the right thing here. Don't force an argument; have a discussion. There's a difference. As you said, these guys are your friends. So you should be able to sit down and talk this out without resorting to calling somebody a
At first, I didn't find anything strange when I saw your Elan avatar. Then I remembered this is not OotS, but WotC. It's nice to meet fans of the comic elsewhere :pile:
I value your point. I'll try. I do have a tendency to come out with all guns blazing and then lose any practical effect because of that.
As for whether I knew there was PvP in the game... Well, oddly, there had been a case where a player had lost a character and created a new one apparently with the express purpose of killing the one that killed me this time. His first action in the game was to try to kill the draconian and he was killed instead. And at the time, I cheered for the Draconian because the other guy started. Perhaps this should indeed have been a warning sign for me.
As for the reason for him to pick me. I don't know. Perhaps because I was the main tank of the party, Lawful Good to start with. And the highest-level too (3 higher than anyone else). These might have been reasons, but I had stood for him some times, and many others I had tried to prevent conflict between him and other members, so I don't know. All things considered, it might have been just a whim, or just a fixed choice. Perhaps I was just too innocent, and then it's my fault.
Well, evil character who wants to kill someone to be an Assassin (Prestige Class). Also, the player since the start of the campaign used to say he wanted to kill someone, but somehow I always thought he was playing/joking.
He doesn't meat the requirment for the Assassin prestige class. In order to become an assassin he must murder someone for no other reason but to make that requirment. However he killed your character for his own personal pleasure, and thus doesn't make the requirement.
The requirement to kill for no other reason means that the Assassin guild picks the victim. Any victim chosen by the player would be suspect otherwise.
As for the death itself. There really is no recourse if another PC decides to kill you in your sleep. If he Coup de Graced you he would have done massive damage just from that, (the damage alone can kill you) in addition to a fortitude save. Your chance of survival would be slim indeed. And even if you had survived a Coup de Grace, you would still would have to make a save vs Hold person (which they could cast again) and would be weaponless, heavily damaged vs an armed opponent and not very likely to survive. I would call that a forgone conclusion.
PvP like this ruins games, and evil characters in any game, particularly in mixed allingnments (good and evil) are always a mistake except in the case of very mature gamers (those that don't abuse other players)
I had 81hp when it started. The attacker was a rogue using a dagger. He would deal 2d4 + 2d6 + 2 each round, for a max of 22 and an average of 14 each round. I had +11 in Fort saves. To beat the average DC, I'd have to roll 13. To beat max I'd have to roll 21. I still think I had a fair chance of surviving that. And since Hold Person's DC was 14 (DM told me), I only needed an 11 to get moving again and replying back.
I was really mad at him, you know.
I think other people have already addressed the unfairness issue, so I'll deal with the mechanics:
Wait, you had 81 hit points? What level was this occurring at? Assuming a fighter with max HP at first level and 16 con, and no houserules, you would be, what, level 9, at least? And plausibly between the good save (+6), ability scores (+3) and other sources (+2 cloak of resistance, presumably? Maybe Great Fortitude), might have +11 to fort, so this number sounds right.
A rogue at that level would be a bit Johnny-come-lately to the Assassin PrC, but I'm still going to run with it. A level 9 rogue that took finesse and the first few bits of the TWF tree for feats (a very good choice to maximize SA dice) would do something more like 2d4+5d6+ 2x[any strength or enchantment bonuses] (average of 22.5 damage per hit before strength or weapon enhancments) on each attack, for four attacks He would have to have had rolled significantly below average NOT to kill you from damage alone. Contrariwise, he could have just gone for a coup de grace, with the average DC being 32. With +11, you would have needed to roll an unmodified 21 to survive average damage. That would be round one, during the Helplessness caused by being asleep; such a rogue may not have even needed to burn a Hold spell.
Now, I'm making a lot of assumptions here, so correct me if I'm way off-base, but yeah, it doesn't look like any rules were broken; you really didn't have a chance here. That said, the DM really should have done something to keep it from coming down to this, whether it be giving the player some innocent third party to kill (perhaps under tutelage of a mentor figure or direction of assassin's guild) or something else, but he at any rate, he did you and his game at large a rather big disservice by getting to this point.
The situation does remind me of my sorcerer who went to sleep in a room with an enemy pretending to be on the party's side. Middle of the night, DM says "You take a coup de grace, make a DC 27 fort save." Sorcerer rolls natural 20 on the save, wins initiative, and dimension doors to the rest of the party with a dagger in his kidney, points dramatically to the bad guy, then faints. DM was expecting his death, but he went along with it, bad guy ended up escaping, and the quest for revenge ended up adding a great deal to the story. Of course, he made sure I was ok with the death beforehand, so that I wouldn't see it as the kind of situation that took place in your example.
either case the only recourse i see you haveing is to find another group. even if the best case scenario happens and you "prove" your point in discussion or arguement, the damage is done and feelings are hurt and there is no trust in the dm or the other players. epic fail all around. the dms failure particularlly.
these are the dms that make any game system a bad system. finding obscure variant rules to screw one character over another for thier own "andy kaufman" like amusement.
if it were me i wouldn't show or if i did i would explain that roleplaying games in general are a cohesive interaction of x parts acting, x parts game, x parts fun.
the fact your feelings or agreement , even acknowledgement of existance in having a say proves the utter failures of this dm. if hes a friend or buddy its worse. let them do the talking because there is no arguement that can defend this type of low brow behavior at the table. very low class.
Hi all,
I had a nasty problem in my last D&D table top session. We play by 3.5 rules with not many house rules.
In this session, my character was killed in her sleep by a fellow PC
My solution (If this had have been my Character), Gather up my gear, tell DM where he can shove his game (rules here prohibit me giving you any suggestions), and leave.
Then find a new group who Game like adults not morons.
I think other people have already addressed the unfairness issue, so I'll deal with the mechanics:
Wait, you had 81 hit points? What level was this occurring at? Assuming a fighter with max HP at first level and 16 con, and no houserules, you would be, what, level 9, at least? And plausibly between the good save (+6), ability scores (+3) and other sources (+2 cloak of resistance, presumably? Maybe Great Fortitude), might have +11 to fort, so this number sounds right.
A rogue at that level would be a bit Johnny-come-lately to the Assassin PrC, but I'm still going to run with it. A level 9 rogue that took finesse and the first few bits of the TWF tree for feats (a very good choice to maximize SA dice) would do something more like 2d4+5d6+ 2x[any strength or enchantment bonuses] (average of 22.5 damage per hit before strength or weapon enhancments) on each attack, for four attacks He would have to have had rolled significantly below average NOT to kill you from damage alone. Contrariwise, he could have just gone for a coup de grace, with the average DC being 32. With +11, you would have needed to roll an unmodified 21 to survive average damage. That would be round one, during the Helplessness caused by being asleep; such a rogue may not have even needed to burn a Hold spell.
Now, I'm making a lot of assumptions here, so correct me if I'm way off-base, but yeah, it doesn't look like any rules were broken; you really didn't have a chance here. That said, the DM really should have done something to keep it from coming down to this, whether it be giving the player some innocent third party to kill (perhaps under tutelage of a mentor figure or direction of assassin's guild) or something else, but he at any rate, he did you and his game at large a rather big disservice by getting to this point.
You are missing some information that adjusts these figures. Draconians have racial HD and a level adjustment, the weakest is ECL 3 (2draconic HD, +1 lvl adjust) with no class levels at all. She also stated that she was 3 lvls higher than the next highest level party member.
You are missing some information that adjusts these figures. Draconians have racial HD and a level adjustment, the weakest is ECL 3 (2draconic HD, +1 lvl adjust) with no class levels at all. She also stated that she was 3 lvls higher than the next highest level party member.
The previous one addresses most of the doubts, but let me be definitive about this.
My character was a level 10 Knight of Solamnia: Rgr1 / Ftr 4 / KoC 5 (knight of the crown).
I have no magical equipment except a +1 breatplate which was not on at the time (we don't sleep in armor). I had magical weapons, alright, but no more defense than that.
I had a +12 fort save, reduced to +11 due to a negative level.
The Fort save benefits greatly from having multiclassed from 3 classes that favour Fort. But Will save was greatly penalized due to it. My base Will save was +2. I had +2 against Compulsion spells due to an ability of Knight of the Crown. All that was reduced to +3 due to negative level. My con bonus is +2.
I'm following the classes in Knightly Orders of Ansalon, which trumps the DLCS.
The rogue was level 7 overall, 2 of which are racial hit dice from Draconic. He also had a negative level at the time, which means his sneak attack is reduced from 3d6 to 2d6. He was using a magic dagger of some sort, an evil blade we found in an evil temple. I don't know his str bonus, I estimate +2.
I also don't know about his feat choices. The Hold Person spell was cast by said dagger. I don't know more stats about it, but I reckon it might have still an enhancement bonus on damage which I haven't accounted for.
stuff
Well, as a magic item, it's at least +1. So, that's +6 damage on top of sneak attack and dagger damage. Truthfully, though, this changes a lot of things; it could easily have its own powers that kicked in, or a significant damage kicker, or any of a few things. As an evil blade that casts spells, I might also suspect that it was an intelligent item, and that the DM might have actually had more culpability in this series of events than he's letting on.
What sort of BAB progression do Draconian hit dice offer? That determines how many attacks he was likely to have. Are they monstrous humanoid dice? Also, unless I'm misremeberatin', negative levels do not impact class abilities like Sneak Attack dice, only drained levels have that effect.
At any rate, while we have a more complete picture here, it's still within range of an instant death level of damage; he simply would have had to have rolled somewhat above average.
As an aside I've never been particularly partial to this manner of multiclassing; it really gives too much incentive to multiclass to pump saves, rather than progress characters organically, and makes the order of that classes are taken matter even more than they do otherwise. It also ends up causing lopsided saves and BAB. I generally prefer the 'fractional progression' method, whereby you only add the +2(or, actually, 2.5, rounded down) the first time you enter a Good fort class, and every additional Good fort class gives an additional .5 to that save. Under this system, Rgr1 / Ftr 4 / KoC 5 would have given you +7 fort (modified down by whatever), but also given you +5 to reflex and +3 to will (or +5, if the KoC was a good Will class)
I generally prefer the 'fractional progression' method, whereby you only add the +2(or, actually, 2.5, rounded down) the first time you enter a Good fort class, and every additional Good fort class gives an additional .5 to that save. Under this system, Rgr1 / Ftr 4 / KoC 5 would have given you +7 fort (modified down by whatever), but also given you +5 to reflex and +3 to will (or +5, if the KoC was a good Will class)
[pedantic nit picking]
No, adding the +2 is correct. The formula for a good save is (class level divided by 2) + 2. In the fractional save system, you only add the +2 the first time you take a class with that save as a good save.
Your math is completely correct; I'm just pedantically nit picking your comment about adding 2.5.
[/pedantic nit picking]
OK, carry on.
Well, as a magic item, it's at least +1. So, that's +6 damage on top of sneak attack and dagger damage. Truthfully, though, this changes a lot of things; it could easily have its own powers that kicked in, or a significant damage kicker, or any of a few things. As an evil blade that casts spells, I might also suspect that it was an intelligent item, and that the DM might have actually had more culpability in this series of events than he's letting on.
Thank you for your input, but anyway, that does not change that much. As I say in the first post, I suffered 6 attacks in 6 rounds. They totalled 95 damage. The player did not actually use coup de grace, I merely said that even had he used it, I might have survived. And the whole point of my post was to know if there is any other rule I don't know about that allows a player to one-kill a helpless character without being Coup de Grace (which may one-kill but gives some more chances than I had).
The evil blade is not DM's fault. We are playing an adventure by the book and that dagger was there. I also had awesome weapons, but I couldn't use them while I was asleep.
Also to someone who above said negative levels don't reduce sneak attack. You're right, it is my confusion. You lose 1 in Effective Level, but that only affects calculations where a level number is required. I thought it really meant you couldn't use abilities that belonged to your last level.
Oh well, that means I could have died faster.
Hold Person
Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect.
Coup de Grace
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Massive Damage
If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.
So according to the RAW the wannabe assassian would get a shot at you with a Coup de Grace. You would get to make a save versus the damage or die and if by some chance the damage exceeds 50 points (and you save vs the CdG) you would then have to save versus Massive Damage or die. The next round either the wannabe could repeat the Coup de Grace or you could make a save versus the Hold Person depending on who wins the initiative.
Long story short... the DM blew it big time and you have every right to demand to at least be allowed to make the save against the Coup de Grace (which will have likely killed you) if not have the entire situation nullified and treated as having never happened.
If your DM actually allowed another PC to kill your character, then I think the campaign has much bigger problems than whether the correct rules were followed to do that or not.
Quoted for truth. As one who plays and DMs equally, I would never allow a PC to kill another character. Period. That is the sign of a horrible DM.
For everyone arguing the mechanics, that isn't what really matters. What matters is that a PC was jerk, and the DM backed him up.
Unless PVP was specifically allowed (which it was obvious that it wasn't), that was just plain bullcrap.
What you should do is roll a new character, and at the first opportunity, kill the player that killed you. Even better, do it in combat when the character is most likely weakened (when he's injured, or even better, when he is down).
If the DM allowed PvP when you were sleeping and allowed no defenses, and on top of that he didn't show you what rules allowed you to be stabbed 6 times without waking up, play by his rules and show everyone how much it sucks to have their character that they spent so much time on be party killed.
Again, I can't believe the gall of the PC, and on top of that the DM decided to play favorites and allow utter stupidity.
Also, what assassin's guild would want a team killer? On top of that, a team killer that can only teamkill someone in his sleep?
So according to the RAW the wannabe assassian would get a shot at you with a Coup de Grace.
The assassin could make a CdG in that situation, but doesn't have to. He could instead opt for a full attack, which - in some situations - would be better.
Everything else you said - saves, rolling init, etc - was correct.
[pedantic nit picking]
No, adding the +2 is correct. The formula for a good save is (class level divided by 2) + 2. In the fractional save system, you only add the +2 the first time you take a class with that save as a good save.
Your math is completely correct; I'm just pedantically nit picking your comment about adding 2.5.
[/pedantic nit picking]
OK, carry on.
I think we're saying the same thing, it's just that you're managing to say it much more clearly than I was. Good saves are (class level/2, everything rounded down) +2 at the first level that has that save as a good save. Therefore, at level one, your fighter has the +2, plus a +1/2 from levels, but that's rounded down to +2. Correct?
on my games we house rule instant death in. the world feels fake if there is no instant death, for example say a 5th lvl rogue got the jump on your 12th lvl fighter and held a knife to his throat the fighter could kick the rogue away from him and take the auto-crit (what else would a knife to the throat be) and survive just because he has so many hit points. this makes no sense, no mater how strong you are you cant survive a slit throat.
Hit points aren't just damage, in fact much of the time they aren't damage at all. The 5th level rogue has the knife to the throat of the (much more experienced) 12th level fighter, and is threatening to kill him if, whatever.
Here is how it plays out at my table. If the fighter wants to try to escape, then we roll initiative. If the rogue wins, he gets his sneak attack damage. Even on a crit he won't kill the fighter. Why? Because he's the equivalent of a nervous teenage punk who's got his shiv at Dirty Harry's throat. The fighter suddenly whirls and breaks free (or starts wrestling with) the rogue. The rogue, taken somewhat unaware, slices into the fighters neck, but doesn't slit his throat (BTW, throats are a little harder to slit than most people think, at least according to a friend of mine who took a course in butchery.) In this sort of a standoff, it comes down to reaction time, and the fact is that the fighter will initiate what happens.
I sort of agree with you that it doesn't seem "realistic" if there isn't a chance of insta-death, but one of the problems is that if you add it, and don't have easy raises, you end up with something much more gritty and low-level than D&D usually is, and players who are very risk-averse.
Mind you, I'm very much in your camp in modern-era games with guns. I was in a mobster type game and I was pretty annoyed that there was pretty much no chance that a cop with a .38 could actually do more than annoy me. So was the GM. I was eventually brought down by a car full of G-men armed with Tommy guns.
I think we're saying the same thing, it's just that you're managing to say it much more clearly than I was. Good saves are (class level/2, everything rounded down) +2 at the first level that has that save as a good save. Therefore, at level one, your fighter has the +2, plus a +1/2 from levels, but that's rounded down to +2. Correct?
Correct.
And if your next level is barbarian (for example), your total becomes +3, not the +4 you would get from "normal" multiclassing rules.
The assassin could make a CdG in that situation, but doesn't have to. He could instead opt for a full attack, which - in some situations - would be better.
99% of the time I'll take the Coup de Grace with the resulting Fortitude save versus instant death instead of a full attack even if I do have a huge bonus from Sneak Attack.
1.
Hold Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)
A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.
Arcane Focus: A small, straight piece of iron.
2. I can't find my old PHB3.5 but if you take damage while unsleep you wake up. Hold doesn't change that.
3.
Special: When several characters are listening to the same thing, a single 1d20 roll can be used for all the individuals’ Listen checks.
A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Listen checks made as reactions.
If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Listen checks.
A ranger gains a bonus on Listen checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.
An elf, gnome, or halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Listen checks..
A sleeping character may make Listen checks at a –10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper.
You might want to talk to your DM. The Death they do for the pro class isn't supposed to be another PC. They only have to kill some for no other reason.
ASSASSIN
Hit Die: d6.
Requirements
To qualify to become an assassin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any evil.
Skills: Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.
Special: The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins
They should have talked to you first and only kill your PC off if you wanted another PC already. There is no other reason for this.
Now there are some ways to cause instant death.
1. Spells or spell like abilities can cause it. AKA: Wail of the banshee.
2. Coup de grace after fail save.
3.Massive damage rules.
You would get to make a save versus the damage or die and if by some chance the damage exceeds 50 points (and you save vs the CdG) you would then have to save versus Massive Damage or die.
If someone can make the dc60 fort save required from a CdG doing enough damage to also cover the massive damage rules, then a dc15 is unlikely to trouble them.
OK
1.
Of course, being unconcious means you're concidered Willing, so you automatically fail the first save. Depending on how well (or more accurately, how poorly) the DM undestands the rules, he might also give the Rogue a surprise round after casting Hold. This means the Rogue has at least a full round of attacks, with potentially an extra Standard Action, before the OP would have had a chance to try to make a save.
2. I can't find my old PHB3.5 but if you take damage while unsleep you wake up. Hold doesn't change that.
No, but Hold renders him still helpless, and the way he tripled up on Fortitude means his Will is going to be fairly low, if not abysmal.
3.
It's pretty effortless for a rogue of this level to have Hide and Move Silently rolls in the 30s, even without optimization. Listen's not a class skill for any of the OP's classes, and he takes an extra -10 for being asleep. There's no way he's going to wake up because he hears a PC rogue who's planning to go Assassin, sneaking up to him.
You might want to talk to your DM. The Death they do for the pro class isn't supposed to be another PC. They only have to kill some for no other reason.
::agree::
Of course, being unconcious means you're concidered Willing, so you automatically fail the first save. Depending on how well (or more accurately, how poorly) the DM undestands the rules, he might also give the Rogue a surprise round after casting Hold. This means the Rogue has at least a full round of attacks, with potentially an extra Standard Action, before the OP would have had a chance to try to make a save. No, but Hold renders him still helpless, and the way he tripled up on Fortitude means his Will is going to be fairly low, if not abysmal.
It's pretty effortless for a rogue of this level to have Hide and Move Silently rolls in the 30s, even without optimization. Listen's not a class skill for any of the OP's classes, and he takes an extra -10 for being asleep. There's no way he's going to wake up because he hears a PC rogue who's planning to go Assassin, sneaking up to him. ::agree::
No it doesn't. That part in the rules is refering to spell that require will targets. Not to saves.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Also
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit.
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.
Damage was 2d4 +2d6+2 so the damage should be 2 times 2.5 (average) +2 times 3.5(average) +4 which would be 18. Which would have put the DC at 28 average. Since he had a +14 he would need a average of 14 or high to save vs death.
Critical Damage
Here's the part that's going to take some getting used to: Critical hits don't deal double damage. This changed because doubling everything 5% of the time led to some pretty crazy spikes that were very unpredictable.
Let's say you roll a crit with a power that deals 1d10+4 normally. So the crit deals 2d10+8. The next turn, the monster attacks you using a power that deals 3d6+4 damage. He crits, dealing 6d6+8. Between the extra dice and the doubled ability modifier, that's a pretty huge difference! (And a pretty painful one.)
Link is here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080104
The op has a +3. The op needed a 14. So the OP would get about a 50% chance of saving. Should have saved by atleast third round.
I don't know his stats so I couldn't say for sure. He picks up spot from ranger.
Maybe the OP could tell us what that was.