Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 alchimyst Jul 07, 2008 9:20:55	Hey all, forgive the odd questions however there's not much on the forums that I can find that addresses them and we're all still a bit new. ;) Last night we had a rather amusing encounter while running 4th edition Keep on the Shadowfell that raised some interesting questions. Party consists of 5 1st-level PC's (rogue, ranger, cleric, pally, and wizard) and the wizard is pretty adapt at creative uses of his cantrips and spells. First question: is there anyway to use one of the wizards standard 1st level cantrips to prevent somebody from going invisible again? For example, a gnome went invis, shot somebody for combat advantage (and thus became visible) and the mage wanted to use a cantrip (light specifically on the gnomes face/items) to ensure we could tell generally where the gnome would be if he invis'd again. Second question: does an unconcious creature get a reflex save against magic missle or any spells in general? seems rather odd that someone who's not going anywhere (sleep was cast on them) would be able to somehow avoid damage from MM or Acid Arrow. Would we even roll to see if it was a hit in this case or just treat it as an automatic hit? Also since they're "prone" would that give us a -2 to the attack if we did roll? Anyway what's your take on it? Any advice is greatly appreciated. -Alchimyst
#2 kouk Jul 07, 2008 9:30:08	I wouldn't allow a Light cantrip to prevent Invisibility. Invisibility is usually an illusionary effect, I'd say the illusion can handle covering up any generated light or lack thereof. Casting Light on someone would certainly interfere with their ability to hide with the Stealth skill I suspect. My ruling: You would probably have to target an item of theirs, and I would probably call for an Int vs Reflex attack roll. For that Gnome however, you don't have to worry about it because Gnomes can only turn invisible like that once an encounter by default. There is nothing stating a creature is ever denied his defenses for any reason really. Your DM may rule otherwise, but in general being unconscious or prone or whatever carries its own modifiers. Being unconscious just gives a -5 penalty to all defenses (though keep in mind if you fall down while unconscious, you then get a +2 against ranged attacks). Against a Prone target, your magic missile would be at a -2 to attack, simply because it is a ranged attack and a prone target gets a +2 to all defenses against ranged attacks. Unless you were adjacent and using the ranged attack.
#3 alchimyst Jul 07, 2008 10:57:21	Thanks for the insight Kouk...we played it decently then as the wizard wound up casting light on the gnomes tunic and rolled a natural 20 on whatever the DM was checking against for it. Since the light spills out across a good amount from a central source the DM ruled we could pretty much tell what square the gnome would be in if he went invis again although some obvious penalties to hit would apply. As for the passed out dudes we totally missed the -5 to saves although we did figure in the +2 for ranged attacks (a MM in this case) since he was prone. Thanks for the heads up on that...it makes a good bit more sense now. =D -Alchimyst
#4 josheva Jul 08, 2008 13:29:48	The light spell poses an interesting question. The illusory effect of the invisibility spell cancels all light being reflected by the gnome, and in general, allows light to pass through him. However, would the "covered" light spell still lighten up the floor where the gnome is standing? Since the light spell is a cantrip the invisibility would obviously prevail over it. However, to reward cleverness, I think I would let the invisibility spell function as a dispel against the light spell, requiring a roll. The invisibility would, of course, get a bonus since it is only dispelling a cantrip.