Iron Body question. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Iron Body question.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
cyber2000
Feb 05, 2012 14:09:30 The battle mind power Iron Body states that I can reduce the damage taken by an attack to 0. My question is... do I get to know how much damage I take before I choose to use this, or do I have to use this when I get hit before I know the damage. My dm says that I don't get to know the damage, just that I am getting damaged and I have to choose before I learn the damage. I was under the impression that as an immediate interrupt, the trigger is me taking damage, the damage should be announced to me then I would choose to use my power. Please let me know.
#2
salla
Feb 05, 2012 15:25:38 I can't find a power called Iron Body.

However, 4e errs on the side of transparency; the players are given the information needed to make informed decisions. While there is no real rule about it, it is consistent with the 4e philosophy that you know how much damage you are receiving.
#3
cyber2000
Feb 05, 2012 16:59:27 Sorry, its called Iron Warding
#4
cyber2000
Feb 05, 2012 17:00:20 But you would agree with me? I should know the dmg before I use the power?
#5
salla
Feb 05, 2012 17:14:09
But you would agree with me? I should know the dmg before I use the power?

Yes.
#6
Ogiwan
Feb 06, 2012 4:51:36 Seconded.
#7
LordOfWeasels
Feb 06, 2012 8:00:16
The battle mind power Iron Body states that I can reduce the damage taken by an attack to 0. My question is... do I get to know how much damage I take before I choose to use this, or do I have to use this when I get hit before I know the damage. My dm says that I don't get to know the damage, just that I am getting damaged and I have to choose before I learn the damage. I was under the impression that as an immediate interrupt, the trigger is me taking damage, the damage should be announced to me then I would choose to use my power. Please let me know.

In order to take damage, you have to know how much you're taking. It's not an interrupt to being Hit, it's not an interrupt to being Attacked, it's an interrupt to taking Damage.

So not only *should* you always know what your powers are going to do (and thus the DM should always tell you things like this) but in this situation you have an incontrovertible mechanical reason to DEFINITELY know - your power triggers when you take the damage, and then interrupts that. You *have to* know how much damage is coming in before you can "take damage".
#8
cyber2000
Feb 06, 2012 10:09:44 How would the githzerai power iron mind work? It says I can add +2 to defence when hit. Do I get to know what AC was hit before using it?
#9
LordOfWeasels
Feb 06, 2012 11:15:34
How would the githzerai power iron mind work? It says I can add +2 to defence when hit. Do I get to know what AC was hit before using it?

You get to know that you were hit, yes. In 99.9% of all games, your DM will say "It rolls a 21 versus AC!" and you will say either "That hits!" or "That misses!" or "I use Iron Mind, so that misses instead of hitting!".

It is INTENDED that you will get to know if your power will work or not, before you use it. However, unlike taking damage, there's no mechanical requirement that the DM tell you the roll. He COULD, if he wanted to be a jerk, ask you what your AC is and then tell you "it hits" without telling you the roll, and that's legal. It's just not recommended and it's not how the game is designed to be played.
#10
sharkpower
Feb 06, 2012 13:44:41
How would the githzerai power iron mind work? It says I can add +2 to defence when hit. Do I get to know what AC was hit before using it?

If your DM is pulling that crap about not telling you the damage, then you can be almost certain he won't tell you what AC he hits, heck he might not tell you what defense he hit.

As LoW said: he doesn't have to necessarily, per the rules, but it's kind of lame because you as a player have no way to use that methodology to your advantage. His monsters information is all tucked away conveniently behind a screen and he has every right as a DM to know your character's defenses, current HP, or anything other values he deems necessary.

Example:

Player: I hit the monster with my melee basic attack.
DM: What AC did you hit?
Player: An AC equivalent to, or higher than, a preciously successful hits attack roll.
DM: Well, what AC is it? Maybe he has a bonus that you didn't know he got...
Player: I hit a 20 AC, Gary hit him last round on a 19.
DM: He uses his immediate interupt to up his AC to 23, you miss.

One of the best aspects of transparency in D&D is to make the narrative that much cooler. There's nothing heroic or exciting about blowing a defense bonus and still getting hit... maybe if the attack would kill you outright anyways it could fit into the narrative, "you raise your shield as a last ditch effort, to no avail," otherwise it's just kind of lame and d***ish.
#11
TheBozz
Feb 07, 2012 2:47:17 As a DM I don't usually let my players know the monster rolled a 21, but if I ask the players what their AC is and they say 19. I say they got hit. Then they ask if their shielding for a +4 would help and I let them know if it will cause a miss or not before they use it. I roll right in the open so I don't want my players to know exactly what the attack bonus is for the monster. I do not however make them waste powers. I also allow them to basically know what attack I am using so if they hear that I am using the same attack they know they got hit on an 11 and missed the last time on an 8. The same goes for attack rolls by the players. I don't give out the monsters defenses either. They can figure those out on their own. The players tell me what the roll is after all bonuses and I say if it was a hit or miss.
#12
thespaceinvader
Feb 07, 2012 6:18:27
As a DM I don't usually let my players know the monster rolled a 21, but if I ask the players what their AC is and they say 19. I say they got hit. Then they ask if their shielding for a +4 would help and I let them know if it will cause a miss or not before they use it.

Why do this?

It makes the game longer, to no significant improvement in narrative

Consider:
*roll*
The monster hits you
Would Shield help?
Yes.
I use Shield, it misses

vs

*roll*
The monster hits 21AC
I use shield, it misses.

There's absolutely no need for the back-and-forth. If you're concerned about the players knowing your rolls, that's what DM screens are for.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cyber2000 Feb 05, 2012 14:09:30	The battle mind power Iron Body states that I can reduce the damage taken by an attack to 0. My question is... do I get to know how much damage I take before I choose to use this, or do I have to use this when I get hit before I know the damage. My dm says that I don't get to know the damage, just that I am getting damaged and I have to choose before I learn the damage. I was under the impression that as an immediate interrupt, the trigger is me taking damage, the damage should be announced to me then I would choose to use my power. Please let me know.
#2 salla Feb 05, 2012 15:25:38	I can't find a power called Iron Body. However, 4e errs on the side of transparency; the players are given the information needed to make informed decisions. While there is no real rule about it, it is consistent with the 4e philosophy that you know how much damage you are receiving.
#3 cyber2000 Feb 05, 2012 16:59:27	Sorry, its called Iron Warding
#4 cyber2000 Feb 05, 2012 17:00:20	But you would agree with me? I should know the dmg before I use the power?
#5 salla Feb 05, 2012 17:14:09	But you would agree with me? I should know the dmg before I use the power? Yes.
#6 Ogiwan Feb 06, 2012 4:51:36	Seconded.
#7 LordOfWeasels Feb 06, 2012 8:00:16	The battle mind power Iron Body states that I can reduce the damage taken by an attack to 0. My question is... do I get to know how much damage I take before I choose to use this, or do I have to use this when I get hit before I know the damage. My dm says that I don't get to know the damage, just that I am getting damaged and I have to choose before I learn the damage. I was under the impression that as an immediate interrupt, the trigger is me taking damage, the damage should be announced to me then I would choose to use my power. Please let me know. In order to take damage, you have to know how much you're taking. It's not an interrupt to being Hit, it's not an interrupt to being Attacked, it's an interrupt to taking Damage. So not only should you always know what your powers are going to do (and thus the DM should always tell you things like this) but in this situation you have an incontrovertible mechanical reason to DEFINITELY know - your power triggers when you take the damage, and then interrupts that. You have to know how much damage is coming in before you can "take damage".
#8 cyber2000 Feb 06, 2012 10:09:44	How would the githzerai power iron mind work? It says I can add +2 to defence when hit. Do I get to know what AC was hit before using it?
#9 LordOfWeasels Feb 06, 2012 11:15:34	How would the githzerai power iron mind work? It says I can add +2 to defence when hit. Do I get to know what AC was hit before using it? You get to know that you were hit, yes. In 99.9% of all games, your DM will say "It rolls a 21 versus AC!" and you will say either "That hits!" or "That misses!" or "I use Iron Mind, so that misses instead of hitting!". It is INTENDED that you will get to know if your power will work or not, before you use it. However, unlike taking damage, there's no mechanical requirement that the DM tell you the roll. He COULD, if he wanted to be a jerk, ask you what your AC is and then tell you "it hits" without telling you the roll, and that's legal. It's just not recommended and it's not how the game is designed to be played.
#10 sharkpower Feb 06, 2012 13:44:41	How would the githzerai power iron mind work? It says I can add +2 to defence when hit. Do I get to know what AC was hit before using it? If your DM is pulling that crap about not telling you the damage, then you can be almost certain he won't tell you what AC he hits, heck he might not tell you what defense he hit. As LoW said: he doesn't have to necessarily, per the rules, but it's kind of lame because you as a player have no way to use that methodology to your advantage. His monsters information is all tucked away conveniently behind a screen and he has every right as a DM to know your character's defenses, current HP, or anything other values he deems necessary. Example: Player: I hit the monster with my melee basic attack. DM: What AC did you hit? Player: An AC equivalent to, or higher than, a preciously successful hits attack roll. DM: Well, what AC is it? Maybe he has a bonus that you didn't know he got... Player: I hit a 20 AC, Gary hit him last round on a 19. DM: He uses his immediate interupt to up his AC to 23, you miss. One of the best aspects of transparency in D&D is to make the narrative that much cooler. There's nothing heroic or exciting about blowing a defense bonus and still getting hit... maybe if the attack would kill you outright anyways it could fit into the narrative, "you raise your shield as a last ditch effort, to no avail," otherwise it's just kind of lame and d***ish.
#11 TheBozz Feb 07, 2012 2:47:17	As a DM I don't usually let my players know the monster rolled a 21, but if I ask the players what their AC is and they say 19. I say they got hit. Then they ask if their shielding for a +4 would help and I let them know if it will cause a miss or not before they use it. I roll right in the open so I don't want my players to know exactly what the attack bonus is for the monster. I do not however make them waste powers. I also allow them to basically know what attack I am using so if they hear that I am using the same attack they know they got hit on an 11 and missed the last time on an 8. The same goes for attack rolls by the players. I don't give out the monsters defenses either. They can figure those out on their own. The players tell me what the roll is after all bonuses and I say if it was a hit or miss.
#12 thespaceinvader Feb 07, 2012 6:18:27	As a DM I don't usually let my players know the monster rolled a 21, but if I ask the players what their AC is and they say 19. I say they got hit. Then they ask if their shielding for a +4 would help and I let them know if it will cause a miss or not before they use it. Why do this? It makes the game longer, to no significant improvement in narrative Consider: roll The monster hits you Would Shield help? Yes. I use Shield, it misses vs roll The monster hits 21AC I use shield, it misses. There's absolutely no need for the back-and-forth. If you're concerned about the players knowing your rolls, that's what DM screens are for.