Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 reis Apr 01, 2008 14:33:46	My swordsage/warblade/Bloodclaw Master character is now level 7, and in a few levels he is planning to pick up the Iron Heart Surge maneuver. I have showed my DM the text of this maneuver, which reads roughly as follows: "When you initiate this maneuver, choose one spell, effect, or condition currently affecting your character. That spell, effect, or condition immediately ends." My DM and I both agree that this text is somewhat vague. If interpreted liberally, it has the potential to be extremely powerful, depending on what one considers a "condition". In your opinion, what effects or "conditions" can be removed by using this maneuver? Here are some "unclear" ones I have raised: Negative Levels/Ability Drain Hit Point Damage Charm effects Petrification Time stop Being grappled/pinned Paralysis Please explain your your response to how Iron heart Surge works in this regard in a logical, concise fashion. Your input is appreciated, thanks!
#2 reis Apr 01, 2008 14:45:16	so I found this ruling by The Sage in the tome of battle Q&A "Instantaneous effects can’t be removed by iron heart surge. However, any effect with a duration of 1 or more rounds, including permanent-duration spells or effects, may be removed by iron heart surge, nor does iron heart surge restore damage, ability burn, or ability drain. (Because ability burn can't be healed magically or psionically, it would be safe to assume that it can't be healed through maneuvers either.) Iron heart surge doesn’t replace lost levels (though it would remove any negative levels resulting from a single spell or effect). It would neutralize a single poison coursing through your system, or a single disease that afflicted you." there still seem to be some issues though. If Negative levels resulting from a single spell or effect can be removed, why can't ability drain (not burn) be removed, or hit point damage from a single spell or effect? How does Iron heart surge work with regard to being grappled, charmed, or in relation to Time Stop?
#3 dyloniusfunk Apr 01, 2008 15:00:46	This is my own interpertation. Grappled is an effect that is negated by an opposed roll with no time limit, thus IHS has no effect. Being charmed would be broken as it is a spell with a time limit. Time Stop is a personal effect spell and while it has a time limit, it does not effect other creatures, it simply speeds up your own perception of the world so while you could get rid of it it would be pointless as the only person you could cast it on was yourself.
#4 zombie_babies Apr 01, 2008 15:11:31	Charm, Dominate, Hold Person, Power Word Stun and the like cannot be ended by IHS. Why? While under a charm/dominate you do not control your actions. The caster does. I doubt they'd have you use an IHS. When held or stunned you cannot take actions and therefore cannot activate IHS. Just use common sense when using this maneuver. Powerful? Yes. But it is only level 3. Keep that in mind.
#5 navar100 Apr 01, 2008 15:29:59	Charm, Dominate, Hold Person, Power Word Stun and the like cannot be ended by IHS. Why? While under a charm/dominate you do not control your actions. The caster does. I doubt they'd have you use an IHS. When held or stunned you cannot take actions and therefore cannot activate IHS. Just use common sense when using this maneuver. Powerful? Yes. But it is only level 3. Keep that in mind. But it can stop an Anti-Magic Field, Entangle, etc. That's the problem. It stops things it shouldn't stop and doesn't stop things it should stop. Iron Heart Surge should allow a warblade to end a Hold Person or being stunned. It should not allow a warblade to end an Anti-Magic Field.
#6 Magocrat Apr 01, 2008 15:48:16	Let's see here. (I'm going to purposefully ignore the discussion going on here, so I might say something that's already been said.) Negative Levels/Ability Drain: It depends on the source. If the negative levels or ability drain has been caused by a spell with a duration, then yes. Otherwise, no. Because effects like enervation and a wight's energy drain attack* are instantaneous effects, they can't be ended by iron heart surge. *It isn't spelled out in the rules, but such attacks can be assumed to be instantaneous effects. Hit Point Damage: No, because hit point damage is an instantaneous effect. Even if an effect delays hit point damage, like Mad Foam Rager or a crusader's steely resolve, it still happens instantaneously. Charm effects: This depends on whether you are aware of the effect. Of course, a character cannot do anything against something it is unaware of. But if you are aware, somehow, then yes. (Of course, this depends on whether you're metagaming, but that is a subject best covered by your DM.) Petrification: "To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move." Page 38 of the Tome of Battle. Time stop: I don't understand which side of the time stop you're shooting for, so I'll discuss both. If another combatant casts time stop on itself, you can't initiate iron heart surge because it doesn't affect you. If you cast time stop on yourself, then you can initiate it. (Why you would, though, I don't know.) Being grappled/pinned: No, because it does not have a duration. (Do note that an effect with a duration specifically spells out its duration, whether it is through a line in its entry, or in its text.) Paralysis: See Petrification. Hoowee, this might take a while to feed into the Q&A. And navar100, you can't use iron heart surge to end an antimagic field. The maneuver only lets you ignore its effects (because the target of the maneuver is "You"). It would allow you to break free of an entangle effect, though. But only you.
#7 zombie_babies Apr 01, 2008 16:00:42	But it can stop an Anti-Magic Field, Entangle, etc. That's the problem. It stops things it shouldn't stop and doesn't stop things it should stop. Iron Heart Surge should allow a warblade to end a Hold Person or being stunned. It should not allow a warblade to end an Anti-Magic Field. No, it doesn't. You cannot end an entangle or anti-magic field with IHS. You can't run around a battlefield and end all magic effects you touch. It just doesn't work that way. I understand the wording is vague, but these silly ideas would fall under the "common sense" tag I used earlier. If it doesn't make sense, it doesn't work. And no, you should not be able to end a Hold Person or some other form of paralysis. You need to be able to act to use a maneuver. It is a standard action to activate IHS. If you cannot take a standard action, you cannot use IHS. Simple. And see the post above. The poster references the page and line from the ToB that proves this. Again, it is poorly worded but not impossible to ajudicate. Common sense FTW.
#8 nephlite Apr 01, 2008 16:05:21	No, it doesn't. You cannot end an entangle or anti-magic field with IHS. You can't run around a battlefield and end all magic effects you touch. It just doesn't work that way. I understand the wording is vague, but these silly ideas would fall under the "common sense" tag I used earlier. If it doesn't make sense, it doesn't work. And no, you should not be able to end a Hold Person or some other form of paralysis. You need to be able to act to use a maneuver. It is a standard action to activate IHS. If you cannot take a standard action, you cannot use IHS. Simple. And see the post above. The poster references the page and line from the ToB that proves this. Again, it is poorly worded but not impossible to ajudicate. Common sense FTW. Yes, you can. If you are a Orc, and thus the sun hurts your eyes, you can end the stun's rays. Basically that would make the sun dark, so luckily no Orc does it since even they understand how bad the wotld would be.
#9 zombie_babies Apr 01, 2008 16:09:03	Yes, you can. If you are a Orc, and thus the sun hurts your eyes, you can end the stun's rays. Basically that would make the sun dark, so luckily no Orc does it since even they understand how bad the wotld would be. Ack! Well, it would only be for six seconds, though. Then the sun could shine again for it's action and the Orc would have to recover the maneuver to use it again. Unless he has them stupid, stupid scrolls. Hmm. This may be the origin of the strobe light!
#10 valthonis Apr 01, 2008 16:25:55	Spells like Antimagic Field and Entangle would not end with IHS. The spells affect and area that you may happen to be in, but they don't affect you specifically. IHS is similar to a targeted dispel magic on yourself, except that it can only end 1 effect. A DM could rule that the spell stops affecting you, but the spell itself would not be dispelled on the area. That would be more of a house rule though.
#11 Vicerious Apr 01, 2008 20:53:00	Actually, Customer Service has already given a ruling on this (compiled with other ToB rulings in this post). And the ruling is that Iron Heart Surge will end a spell effect that affects more than just the initiater. A warblade using IHS to end an anti-magic field is a specific example used by the CustServ rep.
#12 drmorganes Apr 01, 2008 22:03:45	And the folks answering the customer service emails are known for their great experience with the game and in-depth knowledge of the rules... In short - bullocks. My interpretation of IHS can be used only to counter spell effects that are subject to Spell Resistance, and only as the effect relates to the warblade. Ferinstance, a warblade could use IHS to shrug off the effect of Hold Person or cancel the effect of Hold Person, Mass on himself only. He would not be able to use it to speak in an area of Silence, break free of a Web or Entangle spell, or bring down an antimagic field. IHS can also be used to shake off certain conditions, like poison (negating the secondary damage saving throw but not healing damage from the initial contact!) and negative levels. As for the rest: Negative Levels: IHS could in fact cancel the effect of ONE source of a negative level: a single Ennervation, a single hit from certain undead, etc., but it won't restore lost levels if the Fortitude Save is failed. Ability Drain is an instantaneous, permanent effect. The cause of the drain is not an effect with a duration of 1 or more rounds. No free healing for you. Hit Point Damage, again, is the end result of an instantaneous effect. I hit you with a sword, you bleed. IHS won't heal you. Charm effects: For the most part, no. Why? Because being affected by the charm effect means you failed your save. In the case of Charm Person, you just realized that the guy with the staff is very cool and doesn't really want to hurt anybody. The character is completely unaware of the effect until it goes away (at which point he does realize he was magically manipulated). The player knows his PC has been charmed, but using IHS to cancel a Charm Person is metagaming. For stronger charm effects, the PC is not under the control of the player. There is, however, one situation where I would allow IHS to shrug off a charm effect. If by chance the character also possesses the Slippery Mind class feature, I'd allow IHS to be used in place of the second Will Save. Obviously, this would happen most often with a high level rogue/warblade multiclass or with a higher level rogue that's burned two feats on Martial Study. I think it fits the theme of the maneuver. Petrification: Nope. There are several reasons for this. First and foremost, failing your save means you're a statue. Second, initiating IHS requires a Standard Action. As a statue, you don't get ANY actions because you're a statue. Finally, the magic of something like Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous effect. The magic comes, turns you into a garden gnome, and goes away. There is no duration to counter. Oh, and you're a statue. Time Stop: As noted earlier, Time Stop affects the caster, not everyone around the caster. (It also has no effective duration from anyone's perspective other than the caster, but that's a bit beside the point.) There is no effect on the warblade to counter. Being grappled/pinned: Actually... yes. Look at it this way: the warblade summons a burst of power from his internal reserves and throws off the seventeen kobolds that have dragged him down - or just bursts the grip of the ogre trying to squeeze his head like a pimple. Either way, it fits thematically. Paralysis: Exactly the sort of effect that IHS is designed to counter!
#13 calronmoonflower Apr 01, 2008 22:56:20	Paralysis: Exactly the sort of effect that IHS is designed to counter! Paralysis prevent you from moving. If you cannot move you cannot initiate maneuvers. therefor Iron Heart Surge cannot remove paralysis. If the effect is overridden, but not removed then you can get rid of it.
#14 millenia Apr 01, 2008 23:24:36	Petrification: Nope. There are several reasons for this. First and foremost, failing your save means you're a statue. Second, initiating IHS requires a Standard Action. As a statue, you don't get ANY actions because you're a statue. Finally, the magic of something like Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous effect. The magic comes, turns you into a garden gnome, and goes away. There is no duration to counter. Oh, and you're a statue. To be fair, having a warblade burst his way out of his petrified skin like Kratos would be friggin' awesome.
#15 Nathreet Apr 02, 2008 0:08:26	I'd consider it to be similar to a dispel magic/remove disease/neutralize poison/etc.
#16 Magocrat Apr 02, 2008 7:57:41	Ah, DrMorganes, good to see you on these boards as well. You have a good point about the charmed effect. I don't know if I agree with grappling as an effect that can be ended by iron heart surge. If grappling is such an effect, could I also use iron heart surge to end the effect of a trip attempt? (However, I would like to see a maneuver that lets you break free of a grapple. It sounds right for the Tiger Claw discipline.)
#17 nephlite Apr 02, 2008 10:14:27	Ah, DrMorganes, good to see you on these boards as well. You have a good point about the charmed effect. I don't know if I agree with grappling as an effect that can be ended by iron heart surge. If grappling is such an effect, could I also use iron heart surge to end the effect of a trip attempt? (However, I would like to see a maneuver that lets you break free of a grapple. It sounds right for the Tiger Claw discipline.) You could just learn the Psionic power Catfall: you never fall prone with Catfall. Always land on feet.
#18 Metafictional Apr 02, 2008 11:51:08	LOL, i had to actually read Catfall again, and you're right it does say you always land on your feet. Ambiguous flavor text for the win! It makes you wonder if anyone ever actually thinks about what they're typing when they write this stuff... [Rant][Hijack] For the most part, I've found spells and effects to be pretty straightforward, you cast X, Y happens. Open and shut. It all works fairly well mechanically. Then you find a spell designed to prevent some game mechanic from working, like Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Iron Heart Surge (and many others), and suddenly it's rules arguments galore. A lot of people just have a difficult time wrapping their mind around a spell that literally says NO. The first time this ever happened to me was back in 2E when my Gladiator PC, who was the proud owner of a Ring of Free Action, failed his save and was affected by a paralytic poison. "But wait a minute, I can't be paralyzed." "...it's poison. You're not immune to poison." "But I can't be paralyzed." It went on like that for at least five minutes. And this seems to happen over and over, whenever people encounter an effect that simply trumps other effects, without any die rolls or special rules. "It just happens" effects tend to stick people in the equivalent of FOR/NEXT loops. And that's before you get into the arguments about what such an effect should/should not do. I've yet to see Iron Heart Surge in the games I run (our Warblade is only level 2), but I've already seen dozens of posts that can be paraphrased thusly: "Iron Heart Surge....aarrrgh!!!" Or, as a poster above me said, Iron Heart Surge: it counters what it shouldn't, and doesn't counter what it should. Not to mention Freedom of Movement debates: "I can't be grappled, so I can't be tied up, right?" Such a simple and logical statement, but it spawns endless debates, because Freedom of Movement just works, for frak's sake. Thus it's a trap, because it makes you immune to certain types of effects, and then the spell gives EXAMPLES of what kinds of effects it makes you immune to. Thus splitting people into two camps of what to do about it, either "It does what it says it does, and nothing more, logic be frakked!" or "It does more than what it says it does...we just can't agree on exactly what it can/cannot do." And I'll mention, but no more than that, how the Warforged made (and still make) DM's cry.[/RANT][/HIJACK] Personally, I think people should remember what level effect is being dealt with. Death Ward is much lower in level than most of the Death spells in the game. It seems weird that it counters them so easily, but this is probably because Death spells aren't fun for most players and DM's. Freedom of Movement can do a lot, but it's only a 4th-level spell. Iron Heart Surge can do a lot as well, but it's only a 3rd-level maneuver. Neither effect should make higher level effects totally worthless. How you apply this in your game is up to you, you can choose to not allow them to counter higher level effects, you can institute a mechanic that involves some kind of roll or check...there's a lot of things you can do if it's causing trouble. Myself, if it's ambiguous what the effect does, I ask myself "Should a spell/power of this level be able to counter X?" If the answer is yes, then carry on. So, Iron Heart Surge ending a Slow spell, sure. Iron Heart Surge blotting out the sun? No no, you're thinking of an Epic Maneuver: Unobtainium Heart Surge. : )
#19 navar100 Apr 02, 2008 20:01:34	Paralysis prevent you from moving. If you cannot move you cannot initiate maneuvers. therefor Iron Heart Surge cannot remove paralysis. If the effect is overridden, but not removed then you can get rid of it. You're missing the point. We know, by RAW, Iron Heart Surge can't end paralysis. However, because of the intent of the maneuver, paralysis is something that Iron Heart Surge should be able to end. Also, the maneuver says the effect ends immediately, not the effect only ending "for you". That's why it can end an Anti-Magic Field or Entangle. That's why the OP is having this conundrum, as have others before him. It's why I said it stops things it shouldn't and doesn't stop things it should. If it added the words " and just for you, in case of an area effect", that would help. If it said "it counts as using up your standard action for the round even if you can't actually take a standard action or be aware you need to" that would help. Have a blurb stating "this maneuver is the exception to the rule that you need to be able to move in order to use a maneuver" for added emphasis.
#20 combat_fetus Apr 03, 2008 0:00:57	By RAW you can do almost anything with IHS. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. It being nighttime causes partial concealment. Concealment is an effect, and IHS eliminates that effect, imposing daylight onto the whole region. Perhaps I'm carrying too many items, and I'm encumbered. No problem, Iron Heart Surge. Maybe I'm on the elemental plane of fire.... etc, etc. See where I'm going with this?
#21 calronmoonflower Apr 03, 2008 1:50:01	You're missing the point. Maybe by a bit. I know that it needs fixed, but the post could lead people to think that how it works by the Rules As Written.
#22 mcpoyo Apr 03, 2008 10:55:04	There's an entry in the official FAQ on this, y'all know, right?
#23 drunkendrake Apr 03, 2008 11:31:14	According to the DMG, the following are 'conditions': Ability Damaged Ability Drained Blinded Blown Away Checked Confused Cowering Dazed Dazzled Dead (!) Deafened Disabled Dying Energy Drained Entangled Exhausted Fascinated Fatigued Flat-footed Frightened Grappling Helpless Incorporeal Invisible Knocked Down Nauseated Panicked Paralyzed Petrified Pinned Prone Shaken Sickened Stable Staggered Stunned Turned Unconscious Some of these (Ability Damage/Drain to 0, Dazed, Dying, Fascinated, Helpless, Panicked, Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, Unconscious) say you can't take actions (and so you can't use Iron Heart Surge) There are the ones which (I suppose) IHS was meant for: Blinded, Dazzled, Deafened, Entangled, Nauseated, Shaken, Sickened) And then there are...odd... ones which look like it's possible, but don't seem like they make anysense at all: Blown away, Checked (you remove wind?), Dead (O-o), Disabled (very odd, this one...), Exhausted, Fatigued (you can march for infinity with IHS?), Grappling (as was already discussed), Incorporeal (just odd), Invisible (why would you want to?), Knocked Down, Stable, Staggered (do you lose nonlethal damage? Increase your hit point total?) and Turned. IHS does some of what it was meant to (Nauseated, Sickened), some of what it was definitely not meant to (Dead), and some thing it should do it won't (Paralysed). House-rule it. Or take once and confuse your DM. :D -Drake-
#24 zillah Apr 03, 2008 11:47:05	you can IHS out of a pregnancy
#25 nephlite Apr 03, 2008 13:43:53	you can IHS out of a pregnancy I don't think a Parasite is a Condition in D&D. It is a term used, but so if Magnetic Personality. Which is not how magnets work (they attract and repel; can't just have one), but term is used that way. So wouldn't help versus Pregnancy: But would help with morning sickness. :D
#26 navar100 Apr 03, 2008 16:53:31	Some of these (Ability Damage/Drain to 0, Dazed, Dying, Fascinated, Helpless, Panicked, Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned, Unconscious) say you can't take actions (and so you can't use Iron Heart Surge) There are the ones which (I suppose) IHS was meant for: Blinded, Dazzled, Deafened, Entangled, Nauseated, Shaken, Sickened) And then there are...odd... ones which look like it's possible, but don't seem like they make anysense at all: Blown away, Checked (you remove wind?), Dead (O-o), Disabled (very odd, this one...), Exhausted, Fatigued (you can march for infinity with IHS?), Grappling (as was already discussed), Incorporeal (just odd), Invisible (why would you want to?), Knocked Down, Stable, Staggered (do you lose nonlethal damage? Increase your hit point total?) and Turned. IHS does some of what it was meant to (Nauseated, Sickened), some of what it was definitely not meant to (Dead), and some thing it should do it won't (Paralysed). House-rule it. Or take once and confuse your DM. :D -Drake- Nauseated doesn't allow for standard actions so you couldn't use Iron Heart Surge even though you should.
#27 navar100 Apr 03, 2008 16:58:45	According to the DMG, the following are 'conditions': Ability Damaged Ability Drained Blinded Blown Away Checked Confused Cowering Dazed Dazzled Dead (!) Deafened Disabled Dying Energy Drained Entangled Exhausted Fascinated Fatigued Flat-footed Frightened Grappling Helpless Incorporeal Invisible Knocked Down Nauseated Panicked Paralyzed Petrified Pinned Prone Shaken Sickened Stable Staggered Stunned Turned Unconscious -Drake- I've bolded the conditions I think Iron Heart Surge should be able to affect, regardless of ability to move or physically take a standard action. I would also add poisoned and diseased. Anyway, RAW, Iron Heart Surge can also remove being Cursed, Lycanthropy, and Geased.
#28 mcpoyo Apr 04, 2008 8:11:10	Figured I'd throw this in here, before someone tries to say something otherwise (Although removing the Sun is always a fun one to throw at DMs to see how they react to something that idiotic :P ) From the General FAQ 10-29-2007 What exactly can or can’t iron heart surge (Tome of Battle, page 68) remove? Instantaneous effects can’t be removed by iron heart surge. However, any effect with a duration of 1 or more rounds, including permanent-duration spells or effects, may be removed by iron heart surge, nor does iron heart surge restore damage or ability drain. Iron heart surge doesn’t replace lost levels (though it would remove any negative levels resulting from a single spell or effect). It would neutralize a single poison coursing through your system, or a single disease that afflicted you.