To start out I should describe the party that started the evening. We were all level 1. I was playing a Dragonborn Wizard, there was also a Dwarf Paladin, Eladrin Warlock, Dragonborn Cleric, and a Human Fighter. We had one encounter and the Eladrin was knocked unconcious and carried off by kobolds. We did not get to rest before what would have been the second encounter and by the end of it both the Cleric and Fighter were dead and the Wizard and Paladin were running while carrying the Warlock. This encounter was apparently the one thats in the back of the DMG.
So we took a little bit to regroup and ended up getting a few new characters to join our group. We added an Eladrin Wizard, another Human Fighter and an Elf Ranger. We proceeded back to the area where we were fighting the kobolds and had an encounter with about 6 kobolds. After this encounter we decided to rest in a cave nearby. In the night, we were assaulted by 2 zombies, 2 gravehounds and some other undead goblin creature. We were not fully rested and had 0 healing(the pally used all of his healing in the previous encounter.) My Wizard and the Fighter both died while the Warlock, Paladin and Eladrin Wizard ran away. The Ranger managed to escape after being tortured for information from the Goblin.
So back to the main question of the thread. Is 4th Edition really this brutal?
Are TPKs or near TPKs standard fair all the time or is it just that our DM has it out to get us?
So back to the main question of the thread. Is 4th Edition really this brutal?
Are TPKs or near TPKs standard fair all the time or is it just that our DM has it out to get us?
Since you didn't give details I can't tell if your tactics suck or your DM isn't running the game correctly...
Starting hit points is your HP for your class plus your CON score (not your CON modifier).
If that's the case, then that's most likely the entire issue.
The thing that bothers me, though, is that your party was severely wounded and the DM had a random encounter occur. It really sounds like the DM was focusing on being against the players (a really bad sign).
Going into the random encounter I had full health of 26 with my wizard. As far as I know everyone was at full health. I am pretty sure we all added correctly because everyone had health in the 20s or low 30s.
I know that just about every hit from the unknown goblin thing caused at least 15 points of damage. It was able to turn invisible as a minor action.
I'm just wondering if the system is built this brutal or it's just a bad experience with this DM.
As for the your invisible goblin thing, once again i've never heard of it. I think you're DM is throwing stuff at you thats harder than it should be.
I dont believe 4th is really more 'brutal' than 3rd. For a while i thought it was, but then i played a game with my old 3rd ed DM, and it didnt feel any different than 3rd (then again, he has a habbit of throwing mobs lower level than us at us, which i find gets kinda boring after awhile, especially when i like to stack up on tactical abilities).
As I now seem to be the groups main DM (the guy who used to DM 3rd seems to be a bit lazy getting his 4th campaign going), i tend to be able to throw monsters 1-2 levels higher than the party and they survive usually faily well, but of course, this is at level 7, not at level 1.
I think i used the same dungeon your DM is using from DMG, and it was not that brutal, and we did not have a healer.
the "goblin" that goes invisible is probably a gnome that got described improperly because thats the only creature i can think of that goes invisible when you hit it.
4th isn't more brutal... but it is more tactics intensive.
After my wizard was down he attacked the ranger and made a cloud of darkness appear in the area immediately surrounding him, so like a burst 1 darkness.
While some of what happened might be due to inexperience (4E *really* requires that the PCs have their tactical act together), it does sound as though the DM was also out to get you.
Firstly, no goblins straight out of the book have an ability to turn invisible. It's possible perhaps your DM was poorly describing a Stealth check, or reflavored a Gnome as a Goblin.
There is a goblin that can attack from hiding, and if he misses he's still "invisible" in that he's still hiding, but that's about it. This is the Goblin Sharpshooter.
There is a goblin that can produce a cloud of concealment and an effect to blind a target. It's a caster type of goblin, the Goblin Hexer.
There are zero Goblins involved in the adventure from the DMG.
There is a Kobold that can throw "fire pots," the Kobold Slinger.
I don't know exactly how things went down for you, but 4th edition is generally not what I would describe as "brutal" by default -- that takes DM intervention (or running Keep on the Shadowfell as written), or an exceedingly poor performance by the PCs.
I suspect that everyone playing the game (DM included) should review the rulebooks again, because a lot of mistakes were made all around, and start over.
Try to make sure your party has all the roles covered, and that you understand all of your powers and abilities, and that you understand the combat and healing rules in particular.
I believe it was said that the goblin used a crossbow so I shall assume the DM put the template upon the Goblin Sharpshooter. This would make the goblin a level 2 elite. There are no undead goblins so the DM probably described it as undead or gave it the undead strengths and weaknesses.
So this is what it looks like the random night encounter was:
level 2 elite goblin (artillery/lurker)
2 level 2 Zombies (Brutes)
2 level 3 Gravehounds (Brutes)
This is 800 EXP or an EL 3 encounter (75 exp away from being an EL 4 encounter)
The Gravehounds cause ongoing damage and trip. The zombies can grab (and it is extremely hard to escape). The goblin has a +9 vs AC and deals 1d6+4 damage. When has CA (such as when uses the invisibility power) the goblin's attack becomes +11 vs AC and deals 2d6+4 damage (sharpshooters from KotS use crossbows, not hand crossbows, so they 1d8+4 damage and 1d8+1d6+4 damage when they have CA). Because the goblin is an elite it can use an action point to take a second shot while invisible.
It sounds as if the DM sent a level 3 encounter at the group, with no ability to escape, while the group's resources were low to non existent. This seems as if the DM is against the group or doesn't quite know what he/she is doing.
Did you have action points left? Did you use daily and encounter powers? Did you use your second wind?
If the dice are against you, it can really hamper effectiveness, since so many powers require a successful to-hit to do anything (last night, our greataxe fighter took three rounds to Cleave a pair of fairly soft minions, purely because of bad die rolls - when you roll a 3, there just ain't enough pluses handy to turn it into a hit!).
That said, the GM was out to get you. If one of your people was gone (the eladrin was KOd and carried off), *and* you had no chance for even a short rest before the next encounter? The game's not built to allow 1st-levels to do that and expect to win, not against an otherwise balanced encounter. At that moment, you're pretty much hosed. The attack in the middle of the night, while not necessarily out-of-bounds, was a bit of harshness by the GM. Given that you had such trouble with the earlier encounters, he then forces another one on you before you have a chance to refresh all your daily stuff...yeah, he was spanking you.
4e is not very forgiving if the dice are against you or if your tactics are not decently coordinated. Power choice and employment matters a lot as well. In our group, after just a couple of sessions, our characters have gone from a bunch of bumbling fools to reasonably competent, and most of it is experience in using the system and in knowing how our powers work. That's something that only comes from field experience.
If the dice are against you, it can really hamper effectiveness, since so many powers require a successful to-hit to do anything (last night, our greataxe fighter took three rounds to Cleave a pair of fairly soft minions, purely because of bad die rolls - when you roll a 3, there just ain't enough pluses handy to turn it into a hit!).
That said, the GM was out to get you. If one of your people was gone (the eladrin was KOd and carried off), *and* you had no chance for even a short rest before the next encounter? The game's not built to allow 1st-levels to do that and expect to win, not against an otherwise balanced encounter. At that moment, you're pretty much hosed. The attack in the middle of the night, while not necessarily out-of-bounds, was a bit of harshness by the GM. Given that you had such trouble with the earlier encounters, he then forces another one on you before you have a chance to refresh all your daily stuff...yeah, he was spanking you.
You could also get a list of all the monster that the DM used and count up the xp of the encounters. This way the entire group can see how strong the encounters really are.
The fist 4E encounter I ran was the first encounter of KotS. I nearly killed 2 PC by accident because they were not use to the system (At this time I was the only one that had read through the books. I still am the only one that has really ready any thing in 4E). The encounter that nearly killed the group was a EL 1 encounter, which should be an average encounter. From lack of tactics it nearly killed the group.
I now find my self telling (reminding them of powers and actions) the players what to do to stay alive. Even then I am nearly TPKing them with what should be average encounters.
Who ever is DMing needs to take it easy for a session or two until everyone can get use to the 4E system.
So any suggestions on how to bring this up to the DM and see if we can't get it changed?
If the DM is willing to listen, the single objective point I'd focus on is that, until everyone is better acquainted with the game, that he allow the rests to happen without interruption, so that powers and such can reset. A 'short rest' is, after all only a few minutes, so even in a dungeon, should not be hard to come by if the grup takes any precautions at all. And having the 'extended rest' interrupted is, if anything, more nasty than it would have been in 3.x, since everyone - not just the casters - depends on those daily powers and healing surges recharging during that time. A surprise encounter now and then can be a fine challenge, but until people have a better handle on how encounters balance and stack on each other, let those rests run full time.
The other thing is building encounters. I haven't bothered checking all the stats on kobold throwers, encounter levels, and so on. But from the experience in my group, there has been a huge difference in *player* performance from session to session, as we learn better how our own and each other's powers work, and how the rules work in general. 4e requires a lot better teamwork and coordination up front than 3x or any previous edition, and the rules are different enough besides to take a little bit of time to learn. So, I'd suggest that the DM shy away from 'hard' or 'challenging' encounters for a while - even if just for a few sessions - and keep things on an even or easy level. Consider it a training period while he and all the players get into the flow of the game.
Once the group has a few sessions/adventures under their belt, and they're comfortable with their characters and pwoers, then they might be ready to deal with more dangerous encounters, surprise attacks, and the rest.
2) It is very easy for a new DM to run a group of monsters somewhat optimized vs a group a new players. You guys will catch on quick. Your learning curve is just a bit higher.
Characters SHOULD take a short rest between encounters so they may use their healing surges to regain hitpoints AND regain their encounter powers. This is critical because defenders and whatnots don't really kick in their "usefulness" for taking a lot of hits if they cannot burn through their healing surges (hence why they have more).
Secondly, between days, characters should take an extended rest to recover daily powers and their healing surges...let the players use their powers, seriously, especially if they "blow" the power by a missed roll, that really sucks for them.
Ok, sometimes I can see where a DM will build encounters in to deny players a short rest or even a daily rest....but not in the very first session. This is not the D&D of old, it's the new 4e.
On another note, it took quite some time for our players and DM to get use to the new 4e system...at least 3-4 sessions (our players are slow, okay?) before players realized that they cannot charge their characters in and take out all the mobs singlehanded...them glory hounds.
Anyhow, good luck and let us know how it goes...
Fox
I was the wizard, and I won initiative so I ran up, popped three kobolds(I guess they were minions), and than got bloodied before my two team mates could act. My team mates pulped the kobolds pummeling me while I healed a bit. It was a tough fight, that was anything but easy. Healing Surges saved our tails.
So yeah, 4th ed is a bit rougher, but it also sounds like your DM threw you to the lions so to speak.
How were the encounters before you fought were attacked that night? What's party's average level? What was the suprise encounter's level?
* Defenders - If these can keep the focus of attacks on them then already you've got an advantage because they can (depending on the build) be difficult to hit.
* Controllers - These are suppose to be useful in moving the enemy around. I've found the benefit for this to be very minimal. Wizards do make good ranged attackers though so if you choose a wizard do so with an eye on powers that do damage rather then move the enemy a few squares.
* Strikers - Ranged strikers should do their best to stay out of harms way. While melee strikers should move around a lot. If they stay still too much they can become the target of quite a few attacks.
* Leaders - These should stay close enough that they can heal melee characters at the drop of a hat.
Also a friendly request is to ask your DM to roll on the table in front of everyone. It means he can't fudge the dice in your favour, but it also gives you an idea of how strong the monsters are (if they're rolling poorly and still doing a lot of damage and you're badly hurt, its probably and time to retreat).
Last night I had my first experience with a 4E game and my wife was wondering if it really was as brutal as it turned out.
To start out I should describe the party that started the evening. We were all level 1. I was playing a Dragonborn Wizard, there was also a Dwarf Paladin, Eladrin Warlock, Dragonborn Cleric, and a Human Fighter. We had one encounter and the Eladrin was knocked unconcious and carried off by kobolds. We did not get to rest before what would have been the second encounter and by the end of it both the Cleric and Fighter were dead and the Wizard and Paladin were running while carrying the Warlock. This encounter was apparently the one thats in the back of the DMG.
So we took a little bit to regroup and ended up getting a few new characters to join our group. We added an Eladrin Wizard, another Human Fighter and an Elf Ranger. We proceeded back to the area where we were fighting the kobolds and had an encounter with about 6 kobolds. After this encounter we decided to rest in a cave nearby. In the night, we were assaulted by 2 zombies, 2 gravehounds and some other undead goblin creature. We were not fully rested and had 0 healing(the pally used all of his healing in the previous encounter.) My Wizard and the Fighter both died while the Warlock, Paladin and Eladrin Wizard ran away. The Ranger managed to escape after being tortured for information from the Goblin.
So back to the main question of the thread. Is 4th Edition really this brutal?
Are TPKs or near TPKs standard fair all the time or is it just that our DM has it out to get us?
Well I will admit our tactics were not the greatest(and some people kept getting set on fire by kobolds with firepots and couldn't make their saves for ongoing damage.)
Going into the random encounter I had full health of 26 with my wizard. As far as I know everyone was at full health. I am pretty sure we all added correctly because everyone had health in the 20s or low 30s.
I know that just about every hit from the unknown goblin thing caused at least 15 points of damage. It was able to turn invisible as a minor action.
I'm just wondering if the system is built this brutal or it's just a bad experience with this DM.
I went at looked at the adventure at the back of the DMG and looked through the MM. Your DM made a mistake somewhere. That encounter involved:
3 Kobold Skirmishers
2 Kobold Slingers
It is not possible to deal 15 damage from any one attack from these guys.
The Kobold Skirmisher can, on max damage, deal 14 points of damage (1d8 from spear, additional 1d6 for combat advantage).
As for the firepots, Kobold Slingers have different type of ammunition (this is explained in the MM; the Slingers in the DMG adventure, however, are equipped with glueshot). The special ammo deal normal damage (1d6+3) plus the special effect (glueshot immobilizes the hit target, while the firepot deals ongoing 2 fire damage that a save ends).
Your DM made a grievous mistake somewhere.
What were your parties’ stats? If you have a wizard that doesn't have at least a 16, preferably 18 intelligence, you will be hurting allot. Main attack stat should be 16 to 18 by default. Judging by your 26 hp to start I am assuming you started with an 16 to con which would make it very difficult to have a high intelligence with a Dragonborn. If the rest of your party was setup without proper stats that can also mean you get hit more and can’t hit as often yourselves.
That being said the first encounter for kobold hall can be a shocker. Your DM also heavily modified that encounter. The slingers should all have glue pots which are devastating against fighters due to shifty. Also there should have been a nice pit trap for players use with bull rush, thunder wave, positioning strike or any other power or attack that slides an enemy. Also should have been a gate before the next room that would have prevented you from moving on before your next encounter without some kind of break.
The surprise encounter was just a I’m going to kill you and your going to like it stunt by your dm. Did someone steal his Dew. He set that whole thing up so he could kill you, which isn't cool. You should check with the rest of the group and see about going to him with your issues and see if you can find out what is going on.
All this said I ran that adventure with my current group and they went in to the first room not all that prepared and seeing kobold expected an easy win. After the Dragonborn fighter went down after spending the first 6 rounds stuck with glue pots and the kobolds double shifting to stay away from him they changed their tune. It became a running joke that you don't mess with kobolds. That adventure in the DMG I got 2 pk's the Dragonborn fighter and an elven rogue at the last encounter.
4th isn't that brutal but if the DM is stacking the deck you are always in a world of hurt.
I don't know the exact stats for anyone else though. I do know that the fighter was a human and had taken his two feats to get plate armor and bastard sword.
though it did kind of suck that my two racial bonuses went into dump stats.
A few players might roll up into the fetal position hearing that, I wouldn't though.
However thankfully you'll be able to re-train your feat next level.
We used standard array, but they all have a '18' in their main stat (16 + racial bonus).
They totally destroyed Kobold Hall, only the last encounter gave them trouble and nearly ended in a tpk, but everything else almost felt 'too easy'.
So either you guys used some truely spectacular poor tactics, or your DM is being way to harsh... or you messed up with the rule somewhere (possinly not calculating hp properly?).
That being said, that random encounter sound like it was way to hard and/or poorly ran, so I'm inclined to think your DM messed up.
for you!!With an 18 int, leather armor and the staff your AC would be 17.
You can stand in melee with the defender and use dragon breath each encounter and thunderwave each round. If you have a good wisdom then cloud of daggers works well with thunderwave.
Should also get burning hands. At every level try and gain close attacks if possible. Get utilities like shield.
The staff implement ability and second wind should help keep you alive.
The dragonborn bonus to strength would make it easier to hit with staff which means you should connect with OAs more often than the average wizard.
At lvl two I would get proficiency with hide armor then fallow up with the bigger breath weapon at level four.
Go for defense in melee combat then boost your attacks.