On top Also they give themselves bonuses to hit when
they surround the enemy, so they hit even more. To make matters worse, some characters can knock a character down (Which I believe is called prone). This makes it even harder for me to hit (I get -2) while they hit much better.
It doesn't stop there, my defenses are a joke. Although you would think I would stay in the back, often enough enemies come form behind, or even worse, they are ranged as well and can easily take me down. I take damage way faster than the front liners. If I want to use my AoE powers, I can't get close and get hit often as well.
So, should I reroll, I'm looking at a melee ranger now (Which even gets a pet, the ranged doesn't!) I though it'd be fun to have some magic, but it seems exasperating. I'm missing way more often, doing less damage, and dying much quicker. Does ranged get better, or am I missing something?
Thanks from a clueless newbie
The Rogue and Avenger have better to hit because they are using weapons which primarily target AC, but a Socerer is an impliment caster, and targets the enemies NADs which (on average) are lower then AC.
For accuracy look at Impliment Expertise and Distant Advantage for feats
Of course, ranged attacks also have the advantage of putting you in less immediate danger, since you don't have to be adjacent to use them. There is a compensating disadvantage that, when you /are/ adjacent, you provoke if you use a ranged attack. Sorcerers, though, have some good close powers, too, so that shouldn't be a major issue for you.
Finally, while a melee type may be doing d12's, it's likely he had to spend a feat to get there - d12 'brutal' weapons (the ones that let you re-roll) are 'superior' and require a feat to gain proficiency. You, OTOH, should be doing extra damage based on a secondary stat just for being a sorcerer, no feat required.
While a melee ranger may have a higher DPR potential, I find an Archer ranger to be just about the most powerful character in the game - the amount of resources monster have to put on one to actually pin him down and hurt him is just short of disgusting and all the while he's tearing them up with hundreds of arrows.
Sorcerer also do quite well, those massive static bonus get downright disgusting once they start hitting more than one target.
It doesn't stop there, my defenses are a joke. Although you would think I would stay in the back, often enough enemies come form behind, or even worse, they are ranged as well and can easily take me down. I take damage way faster than the front liners. If I want to use my AoE powers, I can't get close and get hit often as well.
You may need your friends to protect you more.
Also, what level is this? I found that very few artillery monster can keep up with the damage of ranged pc as they level... Artillery also have a tendency of having very bad defense and hp...
If you're looking for a more damage-focused ranged striker, try an infernal warlock or a bow ranger. The warlock will also be more durable due to high CON and temp HP, but from what I've heard, an optimized bow ranger is out and out the best damage dealer in the game. Seriously, I've seen Twin Strike and Hunter's quarry in action. It's not pretty.
If you'd rather not reroll, you could take a stroll on over to the character optimization forums to see what they have to say about ways you can beef up your sorcerer's damage.
Take into account the fact that melee monsters need to get into combat with your ranged chracter, and you start to see why your Sorcerer is dealing slightly less damage.
Also, as a side note, check out the CO boards to see the insane amounts of damage (properly built) Sorcerers can do. It's pretty nuts
.You'll probably want to pick up Implement Expertise at some stage, to get a +1 to hit. It'll make a difference.
Good luck!
I mean, like, against a single target the single-target strikers do more damage, but against three targets the total damage done by a ranged AoE striker should be much more, no?
But yes the fact that our level 2 sorcerer adds +8 on his damage rolls seems pretty good. And with implement expertise, arcane spellfury and the Darkfire racial (not nessarcarily applicable to your character and only once per encounter so I guess it counts for less here) he can get a heafty to hit bonus when he needs it. Haven't got any melee strikers though so can't compare.
I'm a total newbie though so I just looked though some books and listened to my friend who made a sorc. I'll have faith that I'm probably doing something wrong (Like I said I'm a total newb) but I'll check out the optimization forums (My DM said I could re-roll, or remake my char).
The only difference between Weapons and Implements is +2 or +3. That is, the Weapon Proficiency bonus. The difference between Non-Armor Defenses and Armor Class is roughly -2 to -3. In other words, your to-hit chance is roughly the same.
(Rogues get another +1 if they use a dagger, Fighters get +1 if they took Weapon Talent, and Avengers roll twice.)
However, attacking NADs requires being clever. Mobile Strikers will have high Ref, tough Brutes will have high Fort but low Will, Artillery will have high Will. That sort of thing.
I'm guessing the +8 damage comes from an 18/18 Str/Cha or 18/18 Dex/Cha Sorc. One lets you add Str to arcane damage rolls, the other adds Dex. (The two feature choices you get, I mean.) Either would net a +8 to damage.
Maybe I need to learn more about this game. It seems I attack Reflex and my DM told me that reflex is usually only 1 below ac, sometimes tied. When I have +4 and the melee have +9 they have a much better hit chance. I only have +4 to damage (charisma bouns I believe) so I'm curious how you get the +8.
I'm a total newbie though so I just looked though some books and listened to my friend who made a sorc. I'll have faith that I'm probably doing something wrong (Like I said I'm a total newb) but I'll check out the optimization forums (My DM said I could re-roll, or remake my char).
Sorcerers get 2 Ability modifiers added to their damage. CHA and another depending on what kind of sorcerer they are; Dragon = STR, Wild = DEX, Storm = DEX, and Cosmic = STR. So assuming an 18 CHA and a 16 secondary stat you should have +7 damage at least.
Some types of sorcerers get to use their secondary stat instead of INT or DEX to determine their AC when they wear light armor. Dragon = STR, Cosmic = STR.
Don't forget to add half your level to your attack rolls, and any plus you have from a magic implement get added to both attack and damage rolls.
All types of sorcerers gain 5 resistance to some energy type or another as well.
This can all be found in the class entry for the Sorcerer.
Maybe if you shared your level, stats, defenses, feats, powers, items, etc... we can see where you may have gone wrong.
You should definitely give this thread a look too. A sorcerer guide that will rank all the powers and show you which ones are better than others at each level.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1165944
Right now I am a human wild sorcerer.
I have 13 AC and 8 STR, 13 CON, 16 DEX, 11 INT, 10 WIS, 18 CHR.
So that would be +4 damage for CHR and another +3 for dex then?
Then I have +4 to hit for CHR and +3 to hit for dex as well?
I picked Action Surge for a feat (It was recommended) and Improved Initiative (Again recommended for me). Should I get different feats (The one implement everyone is talking about?)
Thanks again, sorry for all the newbie questions.
So that would be +4 damage for CHR and another +3 for dex then?
On your arcane powers yes,
Then I have +4 to hit for CHR and +3 to hit for dex as well?
Note, just +4 from CHA.
I picked Action Surge for a feat (It was recommended) and Improved Initiative (Again recommended for me). Should I get different feats (The one implement everyone is talking about?)
Leather armor is the first feat to take for a sorcerer IIRC, and if you are having issues hitting Impliment Expertise is better to take as well.
Right now I am a human wild sorcerer.
I have 13 AC and 8 STR, 13 CON, 16 DEX, 11 INT, 10 WIS, 18 CHR.
So that would be +4 damage for CHR and another +3 for dex then?
Then I have +4 to hit for CHR and +3 to hit for dex as well?
I picked Action Surge for a feat (It was recommended) and Improved Initiative (Again recommended for me). Should I get different feats (The one implement everyone is talking about?)
Thanks again, sorry for all the newbie questions.
I assume you're level 1, with two feats. Neither Action Surge nor Improved Initiative is bad, but they're not that interesting either.
Look at the powers. It should be something like Arcane Attack Power, Implement, Cha vs Ref. Then you roll 1d20+(Level/2)+(Cha Mod)+(Implement Enhancement Bonus)+(Whatever extra), which in this case is 1d20+4 (as you have a +0 implement).
Then under the hit line, there should be something telling you how you dealt 1d4+Cha damage. So with those stats, you deal 1d4+4. However, under Wild Magic, we see it says you add your Dex mod to Arcane Attack damage rolls (my wording is probably off), and since we just used an Arcane Attack Power, we add the Dex mod (+3 for you) to damage, getting 1d4+7.
Now, all your attack powers (as far as I know) target non-AC defenses. The average AC is 15, the average NAD is 13. So +4 vs 13 is ok, you hit 60% of the time. Implement Expertise (the feat) would bring your attack up +1, for an expected hit rate of 65%.
Note that WHICH defense matters. Like I said, the big Brutes are expected to have high Fort, so use vs Wills on them. The agile Strikers are expected to have high Ref, so don't target Ref. Hit their Will or Fort.
The archer in my group (archer, fighter, cleric, paladin, avenger) has thus-far inflicted twice as much damage as any other character in our group. This is not an exaggeration. It's sick, really.
Are you really surprised? The archer-ranger is the easiest class to optimize - just stick a 20 in Dex, and you'll have top AC, Ref, Atk and Dam. The Avenger is hardly the most damaging Striker - their thing is consistency and reliability, but they lack high damage Striker powers. Then you have two Defenders and a Leader. Eh.
I did not know that Dex also was added in. I didn't get much time to look at the book, so I'm sure I probably over looked that. That will help a lot since I put dexterity at 16. Does that also add to my hit as well?
Right now I am a human wild sorcerer.
I have 13 AC and 8 STR, 13 CON, 16 DEX, 11 INT, 10 WIS, 18 CHR.
So that would be +4 damage for CHR and another +3 for dex then?
Then I have +4 to hit for CHR and +3 to hit for dex as well?
I picked Action Surge for a feat (It was recommended) and Improved Initiative (Again recommended for me). Should I get different feats (The one implement everyone is talking about?)
Thanks again, sorry for all the newbie questions.
Looks pretty solid to me, although I'm the parties Wizard rather than sorcerer.
18 CHR gives +4 to hit, and most powers will add both Charisma and Dexterity bonuses to damage for +7. With Burning Spray that can do a fair bit of damage to a group, unfortunately including allies. There's not many creatures with Reflex as High as AC, although there are some. But if you are having trouble with some try something that attacks Will such as Chaos Bolt, which is very useful for a Wild Sorcerer.
Right now I am a human wild sorcerer.
I have 13 AC and 8 STR, 13 CON, 16 DEX, 11 INT, 10 WIS, 18 CHR.
I'm guessing you're level 1?
It looks like you don't have any armor at all with a 13 AC. That's just 10 + DEX.
So that would be +4 damage for CHR and another +3 for dex then?
Then I have +4 to hit for CHR and +3 to hit for dex as well?
Yes, as a Wild Sorcerer you would get +4 (CHA) and +3 (DEX) to your damage rolls. DEX does not get factored into your attack rolls.
You also have the "Chaos Burst" class feature which says "If you roll an even number as your first attack of the round you get +1 AC until your next turn, if it's odd make a free saving throw"... so don't forget to factor that in each round.
I picked Action Surge for a feat (It was recommended) and Improved Initiative (Again recommended for me). Should I get different feats (The one implement everyone is talking about?)
I would take the feats "Leather Armor Proficiency" and "Implement Expertise - Staff" as your two feats, and get yourself some leather armor. They're more important now than going early in the round or getting a plus on the rare occassions you use an action point.
I would also recommend getting a +1 Neck slot item, as that will raise your Fort, Dex, and Will all by 1.
With non-magical leather armor equipped your AC will be 15. Weilding a staff and the expertise feat will net you a +5 to attack. Spells that target Will are likely your best bet as that is often the lowest monster defense.
I would read back through the Sorcerer section of the book and take notes so you remember your various pluses and resistances and all that.
There's not many creatures with Reflex as High as AC, although there are some. But if you are having trouble with some try something that attacks Will such as Chaos Bolt, which is very useful for a Wild Sorcerer.
No kidding, having a vs Ref and vs Will more or less covers you, since there's few things with both a high Reflex Defense AND a high Will Defense.
I did not know that Dex also was added in. I didn't get much time to look at the book, so I'm sure I probably over looked that. That will help a lot since I put dexterity at 16. Does that also add to my hit as well?
Right now I am a human wild sorcerer.
I have 13 AC and 8 STR, 13 CON, 16 DEX, 11 INT, 10 WIS, 18 CHR.
So that would be +4 damage for CHR and another +3 for dex then?
Then I have +4 to hit for CHR and +3 to hit for dex as well?
I picked Action Surge for a feat (It was recommended) and Improved Initiative (Again recommended for me). Should I get different feats (The one implement everyone is talking about?)
Thanks again, sorry for all the newbie questions.
Yeah you should be getting +7 on damage (the sorcer I mentioned was cheesy and went with 2 18s. +7 on damage rolls is still pretty respectable. Also bare in mind that Chaos Bolt (a must for Wild sorcerers imho) targets Will which is commonly very low compared to other defenses (just watch out for spellcasters).
Reflex is high among monster early on because a lot of low level creatures (goblins, kobolds, etc.) are dextrous, but later it evens out and Fortitude actually becomes a commonly high defense.
As for feats Implement Expertise is great as it gives a +1 to hit when you use the implement type you specify when you first take the feat (either staves or daggers for you). Also Distant advantage gives you combat advantage against any enemy your melee alies are flanking which given your allies flank alot may help you hit with single target powers.
Action Surge isn't bad but in my opinion is better left until a bit later. Likewise Improved Intiative will give you a nice boost but as you have a decent dex isn't vital. Arcane Spellfury is a sorcerer only feat that grants a +1 to hit on the an enemy that you hit with an at-will on the next spell you cast against that enemy before the end of your next turn. It's conditional though so not as good as expertise and as said with your party Distant advantage would make a good second feat instead of this.
I'm curious as to how the melee characters are getting +9. As far as I can tell it'd at most be +4 for an 18 in their attack stat, +3 afor a high weapon prof., +1 for weapon expertise which makes +8. Is there one I've missed? or are they using 20 in attacks stats (and thus severly hurting their other stats).
But yeah Reflex can be high-ish at lower levels if your fighting goblins or the like so if that's the case try targeting Will or Fort if possible and see if that improves your odds. Strong/tough monsters tend to have high Fort, small quick ones have tend to have high reflex and casters and mentally orientated monster types tend to have high will. That's not a hard and fast rule but it helps pick which spell to use against monsters. Also since you're a human you get three at wills so can have one at will to target each non-armour defence which can be handy.:D
Edit: I need to learn to type quicker. Getting ninja'd by so many people is just embarrassing.
And yes, weapons come out on top. Even Warlocks and Sorcerers who want to deal good damage use Weapon powers.
I'm curious as to how the melee characters are getting +9. As far as I can tell it'd at most be +4 for an 18 in their attack stat, +3 afor a high weapon prof., +1 for weapon expertise which makes +8. Is there one I've missed? or are they using 20 in attacks stats (and thus severly hurting their other stats).
Well the Rogue can easily get by with a 20, and with RWT would be able to start with a +10. (+5 Dex, +3 Dagger, +1 RWT, +1 WE) I'd prefer Harlequin's Style for the mobility goodness though.
The Avenger I don't know, as you'd have to split your attack and defense stat. Don't need a high mod either, since you can usually roll twice.
The Fighter, if he's a Weapon Talent fighter, could get +9 with your numbers.
Well the Rogue can easily get by with a 20, and with RWT would be able to start with a +10. (+5 Dex, +3 Dagger, +1 RWT, +1 WE) I'd prefer Harlequin's Style for the mobility goodness though.
The Avenger I don't know, as you'd have to split your attack and defense stat. Don't need a high mod either, since you can usually roll twice.
The Fighter, if he's a Weapon Talent fighter, could get +9 with your numbers.
I'm not the most knowledgable when it comes to rogues so I won't argue against them taking a 20. I'd forgotten his mention of a fighter in the group that could well be where the OP got the +9 from.
Though really, Sorcerers do not excell at single target damage as well as other classes do - but when they start using multi-target powers their damage potential is entirely unmatched (and if you go that route I suggest the feats Coordinated Explosion for a +1 to attack rolls any time an ally is within the burst or blast of your attack, and at 11th level War Wizardy so that you have a -5 to hit and deal half damage against your allies with any burst or blasts)
I'm not the most knowledgable when it comes to rogues so I won't argue against them taking a 20.
Halfling Artful Dodger with 20/16 Dex/Cha + Harlequin's Style (feat) = awesome. :D
+9 to hit at level 1, 17 AC, 22 AC vs OAs, 25 AC vs OAs triggered by Deft Strike's Move 3.
Awesome.
Throw in distance advantage (No idea why so many people bash this feat) and you get combat advantage against any mob that is being flanked. Pretty sweet deal. I blow our other strikers out of the water usually.
Thanks for the advice, I'm going to log at some more things, and read some more post and see if i can make my char better than. We are doing another session tonight, lets hope it goes well.
So you had your session last night. I'm curious how it went.
Did you refigure your numbers for damage and all that?
If they got high reflex, it might actually be close but if they got low reflex, its normally considerably lower. Guys with armor 20 and stuff often have reflexes of like 12 or 13.
- Melee can usually pile far more damage on
- But ranged attacks can get the higher pluses and hit more
Halfling rangers can be very dangerous in this fashion.
EDIT: Sorry reading through properly you clearly mean 4E: in 4E i'd actually say its about equal- using a melee weapon two handed doesn't have the same advantages it used to.
SECOND EDIT: Wizards in 4E have low reflex? Doesn't it rely on INTELLIGENCE or Dex? Their reflex should be through the roof.
Answer(s): Yes. No. Maybe. Depends on the situation.
Ranged combat is a better mathematical proposition. You are probably going to do more damage than you are taking, by a wide factor.
Melee combat is generally more stimulating. There tends to be more movement, more changing situations, and more turn to turn variability.
This is, of course, a broad generality bordering on scandalously vague. However, having said that, a good ranged character will often spend more turns in the same preferred location using the same tactics to good effect, than a melee character will.
In addition, good ranged attackers will often basically ignore or avoid terrain and zones, rather than interacting with them. This will be better for your health, but it will also render the battlefield a little less interesting for you.
1) Remember your role. As a sorceror, for instance, you are soft and squishy vs. arrows and melee attacks (Leather Armor proficiency will help... a little). You're less vulnerable to spells (especially as a Human, with a +1 to Fort, Ref and Will.) Still, any time you're in range of some cover or concealment, go to it and use it. It's true that your powers do less damage than most melee attacks, but you can use those powers from great range, impose a variety of other effects, or even target more than one creature.
2) The "trading cards" for powers are a nice idea, but you will really master your abilities if you open a little WordPad document and write them down, sorting them by whether they're Free, Minor, Move, Standard, or Immediate (that's reactions/interrupts). Don't forget to include Second Wind and any class ability that you have to spend an action to use on your list. Actually plug in the current numbers for your character (instead of "Dex-based attack" that does "2d6+CHA+DEX", put down the actual attack and damage bonus for you.) You can print out this document for game use, and edit it whenever the powers would be changed (when you gain an even-numbered level, obviously: also when you find/buy a better implement). After you've used this 'powers list' and the cards for a few sessions, you can decide which way you prefer to organize your powers.
For characters with more "situational modifiers" - such as most defenders, you can also use the power sheet to list your various 'if X happens then I can do Y' and 'if X, then I attack at +Y' modifiers.