Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lunarflare1001 Jul 17, 2008 20:10:34	Well, our DM confronted us with an...Interesting puzzle last session, which the party had no clue about. Though we did finally get past it through OOC begging. My question to you guys: Is he sane? (This isn't really a totally serious thread, just something I felt like sharing, though I warn you that this all REALLY HAPPENED) As you descend down the rickety stairs, you are met with a short stone hallway ended with a large set of stone doors. Engraved upon these doors is a list of numbers: 4, 15, 3, 15, 2. Under this list of numbers, a few words: "Only one of the above numbers is a true number!"" Aside from this, the door is unadorned, though after reading the engravings, you notice a can of pepsi just by your foot. You're sure it wasn't there before.. Again, note that the dm was totally serious about this. He fully expected us to get this one. The answer? Show The numbers represent letters of the alphabet, so: D, O, C, O, B But the 2 was the only "true number" or whatever.. so it ended up being: D, O, C, O, 2 Apparently, we were supposed to realize that it meant Do CO2, as in we had to take the pepsi can and splash it over the door, since it has CO2 in it... Ugh..
#2 1red13 Jul 17, 2008 20:31:19	All i can say is.......lame. Two out of d&d context elements to his puzzle. I think the dm was just trying to feel superior by devising ridiculously unlikely puzzle. I'm not sure what CO2 was supposed to represent to the characters. The pepsi certainly would provide interesting for the characters to experiment with to see what it was. Never mind having an unending supply of pepsi as they kept rematerializing to facilitate overcoming the puzzle. All i can say is that it seems apparent your game is run in a tongue 'n cheek fashion.
#3 doomsought Jul 17, 2008 21:51:23	Scotty, extra-power to the hammer gun! I'm giv'n it all she got, captain! But the right answer, as always, is just to blow up the freaking door. If you have a drood, get him to memorize shape stone or whatever it is called. You have to over come his insane puzzle with brute force, that is the only way he will realize how much you hate puzzles.
#4 salla Jul 17, 2008 21:51:31	All i can say is.......lame. Seconded.
#5 bodyknock Jul 17, 2008 22:36:30	Hooo boy. Sounds like that puzzle is playing the b-LAME game. No really, if you wrapped that puzzle in plastic it'd be LAME-inated. Light that puzzle on fire and serve it f-LAME-be. ... ok, I'm done.
#6 Simonides Jul 17, 2008 22:44:21	Wow... that is totally awful. I got as far as figuring out it was a letter substitution, but couldn't translate it into anything meaningful.
#7 lunarflare1001 Jul 17, 2008 23:16:37	Wow... that is totally awful. I got as far as figuring out it was a letter substitution, but couldn't translate it into anything meaningful. That's how far we got too..
#8 Fireclave Jul 17, 2008 23:17:00	Wow. That's a horrible puzzle. Really, words fail me. Pepsi? Seriously?
#9 skalgrimm Jul 17, 2008 23:27:19	I'd take this puzzle and run with it. Since your characters are supposed to know chemical notation and recognize Pepsi, and know what molecules it is composed of, I'd demand that you be allowed to make gunpowder, gasoline, napalm, and many other chemical compounds. Since the knowledge of the players carries across to the game world, read the Monster Manual, the adventure (if he's using a published one) and whatever else you want and apply it to the game world (and expect it to work). He's established the rules (real world knowledge available to the players is available to the characters), so use it.
#10 blitzbitz Jul 17, 2008 23:35:29	Hm possible solutions include: - Figurig out the puzzle. - Getting mad and throwing the can at the door. - Getting close enough to the door to breath on it. (Yup CO2, it's there too) - Blowing the crap out of the wall. - Ignoring it and going around somewhere else(this makes the DM mad usually, but I would't recommend it because usually you end up fillibusterig the game... erm... bringing it to a standstill for no good reason, or something like that lol) Still seems that the DM is not serious or expects the Players to be a little smarter. D&D + Chemistry = ??? I tossed in some white phosforous in a jar once and the players almost burned to death because they were a little... eh... lets just say not too bright.
#11 darksavior Jul 17, 2008 23:46:43	So the real question that remains...can your party now use Craft:Alchemy to make Pepsi and become wealthy?
#12 DoomDuck Jul 17, 2008 23:47:55	- Getting close enough to the door to breath on it. (Yup CO2, it's there too) Huh, an excellent point! Maybe the DM was being particularly clever. Maybe the door was open to begin with! Since CO2 is in the air anywhere that an aerobe (including bacteria!) lives. Assuming you, the players, were alive - there was already CO2! ~DD
#13 doomsought Jul 18, 2008 0:17:40	or maybe he's just an idiot. now for Occam's razor... Yup, He's just an idiot trying, and failing, at being clever. It will get worse. just take him aside and ask to DM in his place.
#14 nightwyrm Jul 18, 2008 0:19:35	Your DM is a f-ing moron.
#15 AaronOfBarbaria Jul 18, 2008 0:51:11	I actually like puzzles as a player... though I know not to use many as a DM because most players do that opposite of liking thing, you know.. oh what is it called? Oh, right. Hate them. This puzzle does not fit into D&D... or anything rather, seeing as the magic thing that opened the door was it coming in contact with a chemical compound that is in the air. I highly suggest pointing out to your DM that his "clever puzzle" was either flat out wrong by way of the door never being closed, or worse, that he intended for you to piece together CO2 from the writting on the door and also to deduce that door was not receiving enough CO2 without the pepsi. If that can was open when you found it, he's just plain out of it. I also suggest one of the following as an answer to any future puzzle doors: 1) go the other way, and never open the door. 2) If you absolutely must get beyond the door, get out the best suited implement you have and spend the time to break it down piece by piece to get it out of the way. If the DM claims it is indestructable, take down the wall around it. If the DM declares that to be indestructable as well, then he has declared victory upon the party and the game is over... now it is someone else's turn to be the DM.
#16 nightwyrm Jul 18, 2008 0:54:16	Since your DM expects you to use player knowledge in the game instead of just character knowledge. You should demand the right to find and enrich uranium and build the first atomic bomb.
#17 lunarflare1001 Jul 18, 2008 0:58:30	So the real question that remains...can your party now use Craft:Alchemy to make Pepsi and become wealthy? Or better yet, find out how to make coke, since that's where the real gold is at.. Pepsi? Pfffttt
#18 doomsought Jul 18, 2008 1:05:54	Or better yet, find out how to make coke, since that's where the real gold is at.. Pepsi? Pfffttt especialy if you use the original formula.
#19 DKase Jul 18, 2008 1:13:29	The answer to most closed doors is an adamantine weapon.
#20 doomsought Jul 18, 2008 1:21:08	The answer to most closed doors is an adamantine weapon. Barbarians tend to work better... sometimes they even smash other stuff with the door. And there is always just digging down from ABOVE, and gaining combat advantage.
#21 DrWorm Jul 18, 2008 2:15:58	What is really amazing is that this DM went through a lot of work to make this convoluted and insane puzzle. It really shows how clueless he is about the absurdity.
#22 Novacat Jul 18, 2008 2:24:57	The answer to most closed doors is an adamantine weapon. I prefer Knock, myself. Tends to be faster.
#23 12shark Jul 18, 2008 2:55:44	I prefer Knock, myself. Tends to be faster. Knock? What kind of irresponsible PC are you? Yeah, you open the door, and what happens when the next set of players comes about, huh? That's right. They run into that exact same stupid puzzle. Disintegrate is the way to go with these puppies.
#24 sphyre Jul 18, 2008 3:09:58	Scotty, extra-power to the hammer gun! I'm giv'n it all she got, captain! It's amazing how far green_yawgmoth's quote has gone. But it's more amazing that the DM should, in fact, be shot. With a hammer.
#25 rainkiss Jul 18, 2008 11:40:38	Dunno about his right mind, but definately lame. Buy 'im a copy of Grimtooth's Traps for Christmas.
#26 nowiwantmydmg Jul 18, 2008 12:31:28	At first I thought the answer was 4 (perfect square), but then it becomes obvious it's word based, which gives you several seemingly incoherent answers. Not crazy, just trying too hard to be clever. It's also bad form for breaking the logical consistancy of the game world(pepsi) and an illogical event as others have said (CO2 opens it, but the CO2 in the air isn't enough?) I'd advise him to look at some threads that highlight good trap and puzzle building and world building too if consistancy is an issue. Put together the following question jumps out at me: Is he a new DM? If so we have many good threads here that may be of service and friendly posters willing to answer questions. If he likes puzzles and your group likes/tolerates them if done well: Nowiwantmydmg's rules of good puzzle building: -Should be solvable with PC knowledge -Shoud NOT rely on player knowledge -Should have a purpose -Should have at least one alternate solution -Should not cripple the adventure if it is unsolved Ultimately puzzles are a chance for some fun, thinking, food/smoke/pee breaks and should be used to reward PC's (if they solve it have some good stuff for them) instead of railroading.
#27 grogmcgee Jul 18, 2008 12:57:44	You enter a large room. At the far end is a chalk board. Chairs line the room haphazardly, and on the chalk board is written: What is the integral of lnX? Answer 1/x + c. The trick is that everyone forgets the + c.
#28 congzilla Jul 18, 2008 13:46:58	The answer is 3 if anyone cares.
#29 adeianos Jul 18, 2008 16:16:11	I suppose I'm the only one who, rather than assuming it to be a letter substitution puzzle, figured out the iterations of the pattern it would take to work backwards into 15 and forward into 0? Answer: Show The Pattern is as follows. Begin with N (assuming 15 to begin), subtract X (assume 1 to begin), add X, then change X to equal X+1, and repeat. So therefore, 3 iterations including the subtraction at the end, in order to get to 0. 11 Iterations backwards to reach 15. Once 15 has been arrived at, it cannot change, as following the pattern backwards arrives logically at X=0 (every backwards iteration causes X to reduce by 1).
#30 Pinnacle Jul 18, 2008 16:43:16	I would have failed to solve the puzzle, but oddly would have got through anyway, as "Pour some on the door and see what happens" was my first thought. Bad puzzle though. Pepsi?
#31 cheesiem0nkies Jul 18, 2008 18:14:36	Oh my god it was horrible (I'm another PC)... 7-up not pepsi btw :D And shortly before that we fought some gargoyles which turned to stone form. The DM made me make a DC 45 strength check just to push it over, because it was heavy... Throughout the whole session he was moaning "ooaah, i dont wanna be Dm...You guys are such horrible players...looose 500XP....etc" Ugh... Finally, we faced off against a trio of Owlbears, all elites that were 5 levels above the party. When the DM didnt know how to escape grabs, rather than look it up he said "Just wait for your teammates to kill it, then you can get out of its grasp. Meanwhile, suck on 4d8+10 damage, no attack roll!"
#32 kyric Jul 18, 2008 18:35:00	as a relatively new DM, I understand the kind of boneheaded mistakes you make in the first couple of sessions games, campaigns, lifetimes (depending on your level of boneheadedness) but this takes the cake. It sounds as if he had just read the monster manual for the monsters (read nothing else), taken out the stuff he wanted and then made up the rest, and when you failed to get it all right the first time he decided you were all idiots and that it was his job to point this out to you. In short, I second the motion involving the hammer gun.
#33 nexvesica Jul 18, 2008 19:07:03	Well, if he doesn't want to be dm...why is he dming?
#34 galeigh Jul 18, 2008 19:08:37	I have never met a DM who was in his right mind.
#35 doomsought Jul 18, 2008 19:21:51	Second? i think you are third or fifth Next game take a mallet to his minis.
#36 Alter_Boy Jul 18, 2008 23:35:04	Man, the Pepsi corporation is really getting sneaky with their advertisements. :P
#37 Cohen95 Jul 19, 2008 0:50:50	I had a DM that liked to through advanced math problem riddles at us. One was a book with a bunch of symbols in it. Turns out it was Base 6 math, and nothing but an accountant's book. The trick was, we ended up in a five-sided room, and were supposed to figure out that the society regarded six as a holy number, and use that knowledge to figure out one of the five walls was illusory. As for this guy. I strongly dislike DMing. I'm always afraid my encounters/scenarios are going to lack inspiration, and end up being boring. But this guy? The second time he made a comment like, "You guys are idiots." or, "I hate DMing." I would have stepped right up and taken the game. Without him. He can play a level 1 commoner, and only gains 1/4 XP because, as a level 1 commoner, he couldn't possibly be of any use to the party, so how is he learning anything? Frankly, you both should ask the DM to step down. If nobody wants to take the role on full-time, or at least two DMs splitting it 50/50, then just play round-robin One-offs, until someone has an idea for a story arc. You both gain 5K XP for putting up with that troll.
#38 cheesiem0nkies Jul 19, 2008 8:45:07	I had a DM that liked to through advanced math problem riddles at us. One was a book with a bunch of symbols in it. Turns out it was Base 6 math, and nothing but an accountant's book. The trick was, we ended up in a five-sided room, and were supposed to figure out that the society regarded six as a holy number, and use that knowledge to figure out one of the five walls was illusory. As for this guy. I strongly dislike DMing. I'm always afraid my encounters/scenarios are going to lack inspiration, and end up being boring. But this guy? The second time he made a comment like, "You guys are idiots." or, "I hate DMing." I would have stepped right up and taken the game. Without him. He can play a level 1 commoner, and only gains 1/4 XP because, as a level 1 commoner, he couldn't possibly be of any use to the party, so how is he learning anything? Frankly, you both should ask the DM to step down. If nobody wants to take the role on full-time, or at least two DMs splitting it 50/50, then just play round-robin One-offs, until someone has an idea for a story arc. You both gain 5K XP for putting up with that troll. Thats just the trick, aint it. If we werent already trying the roatating DMs then we would, but whenever some ppl's turns come along it is a chore to get through their adventures. But, Lunarflare is our best DM with me behind him and neither of us like DMing.... Wow we are a failure as a group
#39 inlicere Jul 19, 2008 10:30:05	I'd take this puzzle and run with it. Since your characters are supposed to know chemical notation and recognize Pepsi, and know what molecules it is composed of, I'd demand that you be allowed to make gunpowder, gasoline, napalm, and many other chemical compounds. He's established the rules (real world knowledge available to the players is available to the characters), so use it. You are my hero, Skallgrimm! I can't imagine doing something like this soft drink stunt in my game... Why put so much effort into creating a consistent, believable world and then tear it down with a silly stunt like that? There's no room for "molecules" in a flat world! ;)
#40 Cohen95 Jul 19, 2008 10:36:15	Thats just the trick, aint it. If we werent already trying the roatating DMs then we would, but whenever some ppl's turns come along it is a chore to get through their adventures. But, Lunarflare is our best DM with me behind him and neither of us like DMing.... Wow we are a failure as a group Hmm, well, just because you're doing round-robin, doesn't mean everyone has to participate. Frankly, if that's how he treats you when he DMs, I feel sorry for him when it's everyone else's turns to DM.
#41 trobon Jul 19, 2008 12:38:02	You enter a large room. At the far end is a chalk board. Chairs line the room haphazardly, and on the chalk board is written: What is the integral of lnX? Answer 1/x + c. The trick is that everyone forgets the + c.
#42 lcroller Jul 19, 2008 14:47:36	Oh my god it was horrible (I'm another PC)... 7-up not pepsi btw :D And shortly before that we fought some gargoyles which turned to stone form. The DM made me make a DC 45 strength check just to push it over, because it was heavy... Throughout the whole session he was moaning "ooaah, i dont wanna be Dm...You guys are such horrible players...looose 500XP....etc" Ugh... Finally, we faced off against a trio of Owlbears, all elites that were 5 levels above the party. When the DM didnt know how to escape grabs, rather than look it up he said "Just wait for your teammates to kill it, then you can get out of its grasp. Meanwhile, suck on 4d8+10 damage, no attack roll!" Answer: Get someone else to DM. He is apparently punishing you for making him DM. Telling you guys that you're horrible players is out of line. I would never play for a DM like that, I would just run the game. As far as the lamo puzzle is concerned, I would have poued the 7up on the door, or the surrounding walls. It's the only sensible solution and a good DM (which he obviously isn't) wouldn't put something like that in thegame without creating a use for it.
#43 hopeless Jul 20, 2008 6:52:32	Well, our DM confronted us with an...Interesting puzzle last session, which the party had no clue about. Though we did finally get past it through OOC begging. My question to you guys: Is he sane? (This isn't really a totally serious thread, just something I felt like sharing, though I warn you that this all REALLY HAPPENED) As you descend down the rickety stairs, you are met with a short stone hallway ended with a large set of stone doors. Engraved upon these doors is a list of numbers: 4, 15, 3, 15, 2. Under this list of numbers, a few words: "Only one of the above numbers is a true number!"" Aside from this, the door is unadorned, though after reading the engravings, you notice a can of pepsi just by your foot. You're sure it wasn't there before.. I would have said the one with 3 on it since it was the only prime number, how did COB make sense? Pepsi? Seriously? I can think of something else you could have used but it would have left a nasty stain and stinks too!
#44 sarutobi02 Jul 20, 2008 9:43:59	You enter a large room. At the far end is a chalk board. Chairs line the room haphazardly, and on the chalk board is written: What is the integral of lnX? 1/x + c. The trick is that everyone forgets the + c. I don't know if you are being sarcastic in your answer but the actual answer would be more something like: For all real x above zero, the answer is xln(x)-x+c where c is a real constant.
#45 sarutobi02 Jul 20, 2008 9:44:39	Well, our DM confronted us with an...Interesting puzzle last session, which the party had no clue about. Though we did finally get past it through OOC begging. My question to you guys: Is he sane? (This isn't really a totally serious thread, just something I felt like sharing, though I warn you that this all REALLY HAPPENED) As you descend down the rickety stairs, you are met with a short stone hallway ended with a large set of stone doors. Engraved upon these doors is a list of numbers: 4, 15, 3, 15, 2. Under this list of numbers, a few words: "Only one of the above numbers is a true number!"" Aside from this, the door is unadorned, though after reading the engravings, you notice a can of pepsi just by your foot. You're sure it wasn't there before.. I would have said the one with 3 on it since it was the only prime number, how did COB make sense? Pepsi? Seriously? I can think of something else you could have used but it would have left a nasty stain and stinks too! 2 is a prime number too.
#46 trobon Jul 20, 2008 11:25:31	I don't know if you are being sarcastic in your answer but the actual answer would be more something like: For all real x above zero, the answer is xln(x)-x+c where c is a real constant. Hey.... I said that right above you a couple posts :P I think he just got it backwards because the integral of 1/x is lnx + c.
#47 ogre4hire Jul 20, 2008 12:07:58	I believe that this is where your DM belongs:
#48 doomsought Jul 20, 2008 12:21:55	I believe that this is where your DM belongs: as for the question of the thread, "is this DM sane?", nope, he's likely on cheep drugs.
#49 MrCustomer Jul 20, 2008 12:59:12	Throughout the whole session he was moaning "ooaah, i dont wanna be Dm...You guys are such horrible players...looose 500XP....etc" Ah to play with such a DM, I really would have given him a reason to hate DMing. For instance I woulda picked up the can of soda pop and cracked it open and drank it while hmming about the puzzle. "Refreshing! Now moving on to theis crytpic puzzle, it is clear to me that only a madman would go through such efforts as to build impeneterable doors to baracade these rooms and then leave them blatantly unlocked with such a puzzle. It is akin to locking one's house up when going out and then hanging the keys on the front knocker." "Who knows what madness lies in the mind of such a clearly illogical and deluded individual? But then is it not obvious, the riddle itself is a taunt. What is the true number? That is the key, we see before us 5 doors, but they are not numbered 1 to 5 as would be expected, for that is Not the true number of doors, there is a 6th door hidden elsewhere." And then search for the 6th door, even though I really know there isn't one, but that it would annoy the DM that I insist upon it. Oh and is he keeps making cans of pop appear then I shall continue to keep drinking them, storing them in my bags for later consumption etc. Better yet, start pouring the pop onto the ground and the walls in order to reveal the hidden door, pouring it everywhere EXCEPT the 5 doors in the room.
#50 ogre4hire Jul 20, 2008 15:34:15	Here's a question? Would a pseudo-Middle Ages European character even have any idea what to do with a round metal cylinder? I mean, they might think it's something like a pot, but how would they figure out how to open it, or (assuming they did manage to open it without totally destroying it), would they actually try to drink it? To the OP: Do your group a favor and simply don't have this guy DM anymore. That's just the best solution here. And if he does DM ever again and insist on sticking modern stuff into the game, start manufacturing C4 in your alchemy lab.
#51 dirtyfrank Jul 20, 2008 17:24:55	If you really wish to make the DM angry then break the can. Just smash it to see what it is. It came out of nowhere so it must be evil? If another appears try to puncture it so that the liquid can be poured out. test the soda for being magical, poisonous, alchemical, religious purposes, and such. Once you decide that it isn't harmful put your finger in the soda and taste the soda on your finger. When you decide it tastes good just start drinking it. If more and more cans start to appear just stash them all in your pouches, packs and such. Leave the dungeon and try and find an alchemist who can identify its properties. Do research in old dusty tomes. Ask very powerful religious people and wizards about it to find out anything you can. Even look up any legends that deal with the name on the side of the can. D&D is set in a midevil setting and in midevil times aluminum was an extremely rare metal. It was worth more then gold because they didn't have the technology to extract it out of the clay like dirt it is found in. When the alchemist learns how to recreate the drink you make him a business partner and start selling this drink. The mettle you melt down and have reforged as decorative objects to sell the nobles (especially royalty). You can always go back to where the can was found to get more free aluminum. Soon the group well become merchant kings. That should anger him. He may call you an idiot for not solving his stupid puzzle but he can't call you an idiot when you rule a kingdom because of an item he put in the game.
#52 lostdwarf Jul 21, 2008 16:23:29	In response to the original poster: This DM is perhaps the most wanktastic knucklebrained lamers in all of the history of gaming. Dumb puzzle, bad storytelling. Unless the rest of the games was just incredibly fun, and it does not sound like it was, time for someone else to sit in the big chair for a while.
#53 nickdg Jul 22, 2008 18:33:45	If you really wish to make the DM angry then break the can. Just smash it to see what it is. It came out of nowhere so it must be evil? If another appears try to puncture it so that the liquid can be poured out. test the soda for being magical, poisonous, alchemical, religious purposes, and such. Once you decide that it isn't harmful put your finger in the soda and taste the soda on your finger. When you decide it tastes good just start drinking it. If more and more cans start to appear just stash them all in your pouches, packs and such. Leave the dungeon and try and find an alchemist who can identify its properties. Do research in old dusty tomes. Ask very powerful religious people and wizards about it to find out anything you can. Even look up any legends that deal with the name on the side of the can. D&D is set in a midevil setting and in midevil times aluminum was an extremely rare metal. It was worth more then gold because they didn't have the technology to extract it out of the clay like dirt it is found in. When the alchemist learns how to recreate the drink you make him a business partner and start selling this drink. The mettle you melt down and have reforged as decorative objects to sell the nobles (especially royalty). You can always go back to where the can was found to get more free aluminum. Soon the group well become merchant kings. That should anger him. He may call you an idiot for not solving his stupid puzzle but he can't call you an idiot when you rule a kingdom because of an item he put in the game.
#54 nephallim Jul 22, 2008 22:52:29	Or better yet, find out how to make coke, since that's where the real gold is at.. Pepsi? Pfffttt Quoted for truth
#55 gricktree Jul 23, 2008 2:11:30	When people post their horrible tales like this one, do they ever send a link to the DM in question? Come on! I dare you! It can only help at this point.
#56 rainkiss Jul 23, 2008 6:59:21	Okay, when you've got yourself a DM who, while running a game, whines that he hates DMing, docks you XP for no real reason, and, rather than looking something up, tells you to just suck up the damage and wait, it's time to quietly pack up your character sheet, tell him to get his cheeks out of your chair, and take over. Even if you dislike DMing, it's gotta be better than putting up with that sort of crap.
#57 Cohen95 Jul 24, 2008 3:10:02	Okay, when you've got yourself a DM who, while running a game, whines that he hates DMing, docks you XP for no real reason, and, rather than looking something up, tells you to just suck up the damage and wait, it's time to quietly pack up your character sheet, tell him to get his cheeks out of your chair, and take over. Even if you dislike DMing, it's gotta be better than putting up with that sort of crap. Kyu. Eff. Tee.
#58 mufflon Jul 24, 2008 16:53:28	Throughout the whole session he was moaning "ooaah, i dont wanna be Dm..." Now, if you are a player it's important to pay attention to when the DM says something like this. Because when he does you don't want him as your DM. It's that simple.
#59 Valdark Jul 24, 2008 20:04:49	Uh... the answer is 3?
#60 Jaroferic Aug 06, 2008 18:23:12	I had a GM spring this on me. We had been hitting crystals to open doors in a labrynth (yes, just like Legend of Zelda, but less awesome) when we came across a room with a bottomless chasm running across the floor. The crystal was on the other side of the chasm, and effortlessly dodged our ranged attacks. It was animate... or something. Still with me? There was a bow hanging on a rack along the near wall, and the placard below it read "THE STATISTICIAN'S BOW". But the bow didn't do any better a job of hitting the damn crystal than any of our other attacks! Here's where I wanted to choke that GM. The trick to hitting the crystal was to shoot a set distance to the right of it, then shoot the same distance to the left. The Statistician's bow would then take the average of the shots and cause the target to become hit.
#61 Cohen95 Aug 06, 2008 21:22:24	I had a GM spring this on me. We had been hitting crystals to open doors in a labrynth (yes, just like Legend of Zelda, but less awesome) when we came across a room with a bottomless chasm running across the floor. The crystal was on the other side of the chasm, and effortlessly dodged our ranged attacks. It was animate... or something. Still with me? There was a bow hanging on a rack along the near wall, and the placard below it read "THE STATISTICIAN'S BOW". But the bow didn't do any better a job of hitting the damn crystal than any of our other attacks! Here's where I wanted to choke that GM. The trick to hitting the crystal was to shoot a set distance to the right of it, then shoot the same distance to the left. The Statistician's bow would then take the average of the shots and cause the target to become hit.
#62 grod_the_giant Aug 06, 2008 22:12:49	Show
#63 ogre4hire Aug 06, 2008 22:27:50	I had a GM spring this on me. We had been hitting crystals to open doors in a labrynth (yes, just like Legend of Zelda, but less awesome) when we came across a room with a bottomless chasm running across the floor. The crystal was on the other side of the chasm, and effortlessly dodged our ranged attacks. It was animate... or something. Still with me? There was a bow hanging on a rack along the near wall, and the placard below it read "THE STATISTICIAN'S BOW". But the bow didn't do any better a job of hitting the damn crystal than any of our other attacks! Here's where I wanted to choke that GM. The trick to hitting the crystal was to shoot a set distance to the right of it, then shoot the same distance to the left. The Statistician's bow would then take the average of the shots and cause the target to become hit. Your DM, doesn't need to get shot with a hammer, he needs to get Force Choked.
#64 doomsought Aug 06, 2008 22:58:00	I think I know what was on those DMs' minds and they need to be talked to.
#65 Cohen95 Aug 06, 2008 23:01:43	This thread is now approaching Epic status.
#66 necrolugosi Aug 07, 2008 10:46:52	I had a DM that tried this kind of thing before. He tried busting out some huge magic maze/riddle thing. Basicaly we where suposed to figure out that we where finding secreate passage ways that looped around on themselves and only by taking the right path could we find our way through. To make it worse all rooms where identical so we couldnt even tell if we had gone back to the begening. That and it was all based on some silly math, the golden ratio and suposidly fractal geomitry. Whats lame is when your DM thinks he is a demi-god of mathematics but has mistaken ideas about some of thease concepts (not pretending like I fully understand them but I knew enough to know that he had the golden ratio part all wrong). Anyway I was playing a sterotypical Gnome tinkerer type at the time and finaly we all made the DM put the puzzle down to skill checks. Somehow my Gnomes measuring devices became very very accurate. Then with more checks it became obvious that the Gnome could do higher order mathematics in his head. I was so anoyed with this whole metagame puzzle to make the DM feel smart that I insisted on inventing all kinds of things as the Gnome. I figure if I have a character that can visualize and compute fractal sets in his head he should be able to accomplish anything that is mathematicaly based. He got annoyed when my charcter calculated statistical probabilities for where the BBEG would be next month (fractal calculations in head and all) and then insisted in trapping all areas of probability out to 3 standard deviations (and yes I was just making stuff up at this point but dont put meta game math in unless you can not be out done). So the Gnome made different death traps and different spots and claming that he had calculated it out to the 99.7 percintile of probability that the BBEG would be in one of those places. The DM ended the campaign. Of course he was burned out and was one that said he didnt want to DM. I took over DMing and we have fun now. Unfortunatly he was one of those DMs whos tired of DMing but cant stand to not be in charge so hates playing just a character. To bad because up until he got burned out he was the best DM I ever had. Of course he was the worst player I ever had and after 2 sessions I had to tell him that I dont need a side kick DM and that he just needed to concentrate on his character and not tell other players when they need to be making checks and what not. He never came back. Of well this is way off topic just my story about a lame riddle
#67 Cohen95 Aug 07, 2008 10:54:04	*snip'd for length; awesome story* Actually, there's a good moral here: Even if you're a great DM, if you don't want to DM, you shouldn't. Period. Thanks for posting that story, actually. I had tried my hand at DMing back when 3.0 first came out, and had been thinking about tossing my hat back in, but I really don't feel like I know the rules quite well enough for my own comfort (I don't like to be contradicted and told that I'm wrong, and when I don't know something, I will stop everything to look up the information, which would just bog down play). I'm going to give it a bit longer, though, let the rules become more familiar, since my experience as a DM, in general, is limited.
#68 divine_hammer Aug 07, 2008 16:29:58	You know, when faced with bizarre puzzles or pixel-b****ing, I have sometimes declared my defeat (in character) and been ready to walk back out into the sunlight. I'm just not willing to spend my whole evening trying to puzzle out the bizarre idea that leapt into a DM's mind during 3rd-period Chemistry class.
#69 a_lusty_alien Aug 08, 2008 20:17:47	I was guilty of doing something like this when DMing a game. The group entered into a room and the door they entered through and slammed shut. At the other end of the room was a series of doors with a geometric shape inscribed on it. Try to open the wrong door and you'd set off a trap. In the middle of the room was a podium with a sheet of parchment beneath an unbreakable transparent cover with a strange pattern on it. I then handed the group a sheet of paper that I had printed a stereo illusion image. (You know one of those graphic images that when you stare at it and sort of de-focus your eyes, a 3-D shape appears.) It turned out that out of 7 people I was the only one with the ability to see those kind of images.
#70 Cohen95 Aug 08, 2008 21:29:47	I was guilty of doing something like this when DMing a game. The group entered into a room and the door they entered through and slammed shut. At the other end of the room was a series of doors with a geometric shape inscribed on it. Try to open the wrong door and you'd set off a trap. In the middle of the room was a podium with a sheet of parchment beneath an unbreakable transparent cover with a strange pattern on it. I then handed the group a sheet of paper that I had printed a stereo illusion image. (You know one of those graphic images that when you stare at it and sort of de-focus your eyes, a 3-D shape appears.) It turned out that out of 7 people I was the only one with the ability to see those kind of images. As a general rule, you should probably keep visual aids to a minimum difficulty. Riddles can be tricky enough, visual puzzles can be horribly difficult if you don't "get it."
#71 fingerbck Aug 09, 2008 17:50:20	obviusly your DM is new to gameing it sould have been Mt.Dew
#72 pigknight Aug 09, 2008 19:03:46	This story is why I rarely use puzzles, and when I do I just steal them from somewhere. And if need be it'll just become a skill challenge. BTW pepsi? Fail. Dr Pepper/Coke FTW.
#73 Cohen95 Aug 09, 2008 19:47:21	obviusly your DM is new to gameing it sould have been Mt.Dew The answer was carbon dioxide, not sugar.
#74 fingerbck Aug 09, 2008 19:58:52	Mt.Dew has carbon and is found in every gameing group world wide. "where r the cheetos, next to the Mt.Dew...DUH!"
#75 Cohen95 Aug 10, 2008 1:27:54	Mt.Dew has carbon and is found in every gameing group world wide. "where r the cheetos, next to the Mt.Dew...DUH!" People have carbon and are found in every gaming group world wide. Sorry, at this point I'm just being contrary. Anyway....more cool stories of crazy riddles/puzzles?
#76 strycher Aug 11, 2008 22:33:07	example of a "Bad Puzzle Challenge" My friend (who is usually an excellent DM) came up with a challenge for the party. The group encountered some sort of "in-game" puzzle, which he described briefly. Then he pulled out props! Out-of-game, he explained that we (the players) would have to solve his "Real-world" puzzle in order for our characters to be able to solve their (in-game) puzzle. The puzzle: A block of wood with one long, flat-head nail stuck in it. Then 15 or so matching nails were handed to us. The challenge was to balance all 15 nails on top of the one nail stuck in the wood. Answer: Show lay one nail on table. Line up the other nails at a right angle to this first nail with the head of the nails touching the first one. You alternate the nails pointing side to side. Finally, you place the last nail over the nails kind of making a "sandwich" with the first nail. When you pick up this sandwich, all of the nails droop down, but the heads will not allow them to fall out of the "sandwich". The drooping nails pinch the top nail and holds the entire thing together. This sandwich is then balanced on top of the nail in the block of wood.
#77 Cohen95 Aug 11, 2008 22:49:09	This thread is making me happier and happier that I've never used puzzles in my game.
#78 pigknight Aug 11, 2008 23:44:01	If I use a puzzles they are not important. Solving 'em just gives a bonus.
#79 nekoworldorder Aug 12, 2008 2:41:32	Dumbest metagame puzzle ever; we are in a room that we had to enter that we are now unable to leave. The only way out is a door with six numbered tumblers and a handle on it. We've been warned about the door and we know it's a deathtrap. There is no clue in the room, only the skeletal body of a person in front of the door. I still can't believe we figured this one out. Show The corpse was the creator of the death trap. Casting Speak With Dead on him caused him to say one phrase..."Think high". Knowing it was a deathtrap and that 999999 was too obvious, we spent about ten minutes trying to recall anything we might have seen in the adventure that would give us the answer. Finally, while playing with my dice, I realized my DM was a geek and guessed '202020', as in three natural twenties. When it worked, I almost hit him.
#80 hippokrene Aug 12, 2008 5:36:21	Since your DM expects you to use player knowledge in the game instead of just character knowledge. You should demand the right to find and enrich uranium and create a sword with it. Fixed your post.
#81 Demon_Lightfoot Aug 12, 2008 17:44:38	Fixed your post. That reminds me of a trap my old 1e DM used; open a door, there's a room (prolly 10'x10', but I digress) and in the middle, is a glowing sword set in a stone (or anvil...this was over 20 years ago, it's hard to recall...). Smelling a trap, I refused to have anything to do with it (plus, it had symbols on it -- a disk with three fins radiating outward and the runes "U-238"). My greedy comrade decided to go for it.:fight!: ...took him a very short time to die of radiation-poisoning...
#82 sphyre Aug 13, 2008 23:33:58	Fixed your post. I can't stop laughing....
#83 _jayne_cobb_ Aug 14, 2008 11:09:46	Are you kidding? You're DM is out of his friggin' mind.
#84 _jayne_cobb_ Aug 14, 2008 11:17:26	Fixed your post. Sword? Pah! A katana is no mere sword! They can cut through, like, cars and preschools and stuff! Uraniums katana FTW!!!
#85 _jayne_cobb_ Aug 14, 2008 11:29:57	As a counter to this, anyone have any examples of good puzzles? Here's one of mine. I think this one is pretty clever, if I do say so myself, and have had great feedback on it from players and forumites alike: The Puzzle The PCs find a locked box they need to get into. It is carved with images of knights and has the word KNIHT - and ancient Dwarven spelling of "knight" - engraved in Dwarven runes on the lock. No amount of spells or lockpicking can budge the lock. They have a key they know should work, and it fits perfectly, but it also won't budge. The Solution Show In addition to being an ancient Dwarven spelling of "Knight", KNIHT is also just THINK spelled backwards, a hint to literally "think backwards". The lock is opened by inserting the ring end, not the toothed end, of the key and turning.
#86 cannaith Aug 14, 2008 12:13:56	As a counter to this, anyone have any examples of good puzzles? Yep. I ran a game with a puzzle in it that I thought was pretty good. The PCs entered a room and were confronted with a puzzle to get through a door. The wizard cast knock on the door and it opened. Any puzzle with the words "Can not be picked" or "Impervious to magic", etc is a bad puzzle in my opinion. If you need to break the rules of the game to make it work, then perhaps you should give up on it.
#87 black_kitten Aug 14, 2008 13:53:27	I once made a trap room with the most devious solution ever: death. The only real way to escape the room was to portal to the Fugue Plane (FR) (my PCs could do that) and once there, travel to castle Displeasure on the 667th layer of the Abyss to serve as Count Displeasure's playmates. Luckily for me, the PCs kept trying enough things for me to give them hints...
#88 Cohen95 Aug 14, 2008 14:46:32	As a counter to this, anyone have any examples of good puzzles? Here's one of mine. I think this one is pretty clever, if I do say so myself, and have had great feedback on it from players and forumites alike: The Puzzle The PCs find a locked box they need to get into. It is carved with images of knights and has the word KNIHT - and ancient Dwarven spelling of "knight" - engraved in Dwarven runes on the lock. No amount of spells or lockpicking can budge the lock. They have a key they know should work, and it fits perfectly, but it also won't budge. The Solution Show In addition to being an ancient Dwarven spelling of "Knight", KNIHT is also just THINK spelled backwards, a hint to literally "think backwards". The lock is opened by inserting the ring end, not the toothed end, of the key and turning.
#89 _jayne_cobb_ Aug 15, 2008 11:49:07	Any puzzle with the words "Can not be picked" or "Impervious to magic", etc is a bad puzzle in my opinion. If you need to break the rules of the game to make it work, then perhaps you should give up on it. Translation: "Yada yada yada you are teh suxxorz DM blah blah blah." This was not simply an arbitrary decision, there were very specific reasons for it that they knew going in. If you require me to provide you with several pages of backstory and detailed explanation for anything I post related to my campaign in order to forestall knee-jerk arrogant responses such as I quoted then please do us both a favour and put me on you ignore list now.
#90 arcaneone Aug 19, 2008 19:02:38	To the OP: The answer to the riddle was so obvious its a bit silly. Upon seeing the can of soda on the ground the players should have slapped the crap out of the GM until the door opened. Done. :D
#91 Authw8 Aug 19, 2008 19:43:09	The best type of puzzle is a puzzle based on a difficult situation, with no specific pre-determined solution. I've been known to create puzzles like this without thinking of any good solution beforehand.
#92 rainkiss Aug 20, 2008 7:40:49	Sssh, you'll give away my secret! Yes, I've put parties in situations before where I had NO idea how they would get past the (fill-in-the-blank)... However, I only do it to parties I know are creative and bright. Generally, with these folks, they come up with stuff I never thought of, anyway, so I stopped spending skullsweat on solutions for 'em, since what they came up with was usually more dramatic than I'd thought of in the first place. Rule of Thumb: If a party comes up with a solution to a puzzle/situation that you hadn't considered, if it'll make a good story later, let it work!
#93 johnthedm7000 Aug 20, 2008 23:00:41	I completely agree with Rain Kiss-original thinking should be rewarded, so long as it makes sense regarding the situation and doesn't rely on dubious rules interpretations. That DM should be tarred, feathered, branded with a crossed-out d20 to warn other gaming groups that they should not accept him as any sort of story-teller, DM, GM, Chronicler, etc and then run out of town. :P Or you could do the non-illegal thing and just have him/her step down and find someone else.
#94 korgoththeprist Aug 20, 2008 23:44:58	example of a "Bad Puzzle Challenge" My friend (who is usually an excellent DM) came up with a challenge for the party. The group encountered some sort of "in-game" puzzle, which he described briefly. Then he pulled out props! Out-of-game, he explained that we (the players) would have to solve his "Real-world" puzzle in order for our characters to be able to solve their (in-game) puzzle. The puzzle: A block of wood with one long, flat-head nail stuck in it. Then 15 or so matching nails were handed to us. The challenge was to balance all 15 nails on top of the one nail stuck in the wood. Answer: Show lay one nail on table. Line up the other nails at a right angle to this first nail with the head of the nails touching the first one. You alternate the nails pointing side to side. Finally, you place the last nail over the nails kind of making a "sandwich" with the first nail. When you pick up this sandwich, all of the nails droop down, but the heads will not allow them to fall out of the "sandwich". The drooping nails pinch the top nail and holds the entire thing together. This sandwich is then balanced on top of the nail in the block of wood.
#95 _jayne_cobb_ Aug 25, 2008 10:15:12	Er Tell me. Couldnt you just lay the block of wood down on its side so the nail is laying on the table then put all the Nails on top of it Easy as pie? Or did you have to pick it up and such? Coz with the board On the side and nails on top of it. There Well On its side sure but On top of it. The problem with this sort of thing is that most DMs use puzzles cos they think they're being clever. If the players find a simple way around it destroys that feeling by showing the DM was not nearly so clever as he thought. I am sure most of you are aware of the Gordian Knot. It is the paradigmatic illustration of a simple solution to a complex puzzle. Problem is, most DMs (bad ones, anyway) would never let if fly in a D&D game as it is far too great a blow to their ego to bypass their "uber" puzzle so easily.
#96 dizzyxi Aug 26, 2008 6:42:45	The problem with this sort of thing is that most DMs use puzzles cos they think their a clever. If the players find a simple way around it destroys that feeling by showing the DM was not nearly so clever as he thought. I am sure most of you are aware of the Gordian Knot. It is the paradigmatic illustration of a simple solution to a complex puzzle. Problem is, most DMs (bad ones, anyway) would never let if fly in a D&D game as it is far too great a blow to their ego to bypass their "uber" puzzle so easily. ...which is a shame really, since often the Gordian Knot is the most intelligent solution to a puzzle/trap in front of you. I'm a new player to 4th E and to D&D in general, but if I was DMing then my players coming up with a simple solution I didn't think of would be a great result!
#97 nightwyrm Aug 26, 2008 10:11:22	Even if the solution turns out to be a dungeon bypass? :D
#98 dizzyxi Aug 26, 2008 15:23:28	Even if the solution turns out to be a dungeon bypass? :D Definately, as long as I have something else ready to fill the next few hours with! :P
#99 doomsought Aug 26, 2008 19:53:08	Definately, as long as I have something else ready to fill the next few hours with! :P One more reason to play a Kobald, +2 racial to Profession mining checks.
#100 _jayne_cobb_ Aug 27, 2008 9:05:44	Even if the solution turns out to be a dungeon bypass? :D Yup. It'll be both a test of the DMs ability to ad lib and an object lesson that he will hopefully work to avoid in future.
#101 derren_s. Aug 28, 2008 5:56:13	Translation: "Yada yada yada you are teh suxxorz DM blah blah blah." This was not simply an arbitrary decision, there were very specific reasons for it that they knew going in. If you require me to provide you with several pages of backstory and detailed explanation for anything I post related to my campaign in order to forestall knee-jerk arrogant responses such as I quoted then please do us both a favour and put me on you ignore list now. So this box and its key were powerful artifacts and among the most powerful items in the world? Because if not then it is possible to pick the lock or destroy the box. And that's why I don't use puzzles as DM because they don't make much sense and are the epitome of railroading. It doesn't make sense that when you want to protect something you leave clues behind so that every random robber has a chance to bypass the mechanism. Also most such mechanisms can be bypassed either by violence, try and error or non linear thinking making them a huge resource waste compared to a normal lock. Except of course the DM railroads and makes the puzzle only solvable by one specific method no matter what the PCs try.
#102 _jayne_cobb_ Aug 28, 2008 12:23:02	So this box and its key were powerful artifacts and among the most powerful items in the world? Because if not then it is possible to pick the lock or destroy the box. Thank you for telling me how things are in my game. And that's why I don't use puzzles as DM because they don't make much sense and are the epitome of railroading. It doesn't make sense that when you want to protect something you leave clues behind so that every random robber has a chance to bypass the mechanism. Also most such mechanisms can be bypassed either by violence, try and error or non linear thinking making them a huge resource waste compared to a normal lock. Except of course the DM railroads and makes the puzzle only solvable by one specific method no matter what the PCs try. I'm guessing you missed the part where I wrote "This was not simply an arbitrary decision, there were very specific reasons for it that they knew going in", or did you simply choose to ignore it cos it cut the legs out from under your high-horse?
#103 derren_s. Aug 28, 2008 13:56:44	I'm guessing you missed the part where I wrote "This was not simply an arbitrary decision, there were very specific reasons for it that they knew going in", or did you simply choose to ignore it cos it cut the legs out from under your high-horse? Every DM has very specific reasons to put things into the game, even the CO2 puzzle. That alone says nothing. The question is if this reason is sensible and when its about traps than the answer is nearly always no.
#104 _jayne_cobb_ Aug 28, 2008 14:37:59	Every DM has very specific reasons to put things into the game, even the CO2 puzzle. That alone says nothing. The question is if this reason is sensible and when its about traps than the answer is nearly always no. No, the answer is always "you have no ****ing idea what you are talking about because you weren't there". You are making broad assumptions about something of which you have no first-hand knowledge. You are also erroneously assuming that the acquisition of the boxes contents is the achievement in this instance when in fact it is not. The boxes contents are simply a McGuffin, the overcoming of the puzzle is teh achievement. Maybe if you weren't so busy telling others how to run their games you might realize that not everyone runs them, or wishes to run them, as do you and the fact that you prefer something does not make the preference universally true.
#105 frostwolf Aug 28, 2008 22:26:37	D&D is set in a midevil setting and in midevil times aluminum was an extremely rare metal. It was worth more then gold because they didn't have the technology to extract it out of the clay like dirt it is found in. Dude, I know it goes by a different name, but the lets face it. Aluminum=mithral. Keep harvesting them cans, drink/sell the fizzy tasty stuff inside, then use the sugar rush to work all day to make mithral armor.
#106 daknit_bard_of_tarot Aug 28, 2008 22:43:02	Puzzles are always one of pride when it comes to the DM. Your approach to the problem is a political one at best. If the DM gives you a bad puzzle, but you figured it out, and you are in a bad situation, then tell the DM that it was a worthy puzzle. If the DM gives you a HARD puzzle, and you figured it out easily, and you are in a bad spot, then tell the DM that the puzzle made your head hurt. If the DM gives you a puzzle, and you can't figure it out, ask if your character would know. If yes, ask for hints. If no, pray to god. If the DM gives you a puzzle, it's lame/ he don't care/ you can't figure it out, and the game seems hopeless anyways, then say "F*** It!", flip the table over, take all the remaining Mt. Dew, and walk out. that will teach him!
#107 cannaith Aug 29, 2008 11:40:10	Translation: "Yada yada yada you are teh suxxorz DM blah blah blah." Having read many of your posts in the past and admired almost all of them, no. I certainly do not think that your DM skill "suxxorz". And while my comment WAS directed at you in the sense of being a response to "Have you used any good puzzles" it WAS NOT directed at you as a criticism of your puzzle, else I would have included your description in my quotation. I can appreciate though how it may have appeared as though it were directed to you in criticism, since my statement mirrored yours almost verbatim. This was a coincidence or perhaps a freudian slip of some fashion. My intention was to state what I believe makes a good puzzle, and in my opinion it is one that follows the established rules of the game and your world without invalidating the abilities that players have earned through their XP. Yes it's true that I don't like the specific puzzle you've described and that I would recommend against using it to anyone consulting my opinion on it. However please do not interpret this as a lack of respect for you or your opinion. You are one of my favourite posters. please do us both a favour and put me on you ignore list now. Never.