Is this guy too tough? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Is this guy too tough?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
wraithgnome
Dec 13, 2009 11:55:06 My DM created an 8th level Artillery(crossbowman) that had as one of his attacks a ranged attack +15 vs. AC, 3d8+3 damage and target is dazed(save ends), recharge on a 5/6. My character was a 7th level rogue and this guy took me down in 3 rounds. I just think that attack is a bit much for a 7th level party of 4. What do you guys think?
#2
tyrandor
Dec 13, 2009 12:09:53 Sounds like it would be much better balanced as an encounter attack with no recharge.
#3
slobo777a
Dec 13, 2009 13:04:49
Sounds like it would be much better balanced as an encounter attack with no recharge.

Or drop the damage to standard for that level (1d8+6?), keeping the Daze. Or make the creature Elite.

The problem is top-rated damage plus Daze on a standard monster's attack.
#4
LordOfWeasels
Dec 13, 2009 13:14:23
My DM created an 8th level Artillery(crossbowman) that had as one of his attacks a ranged attack +15 vs. AC, 3d8+3 damage and target is dazed(save ends), recharge on a 5/6. My character was a 7th level rogue and this guy took me down in 3 rounds. I just think that attack is a bit much for a 7th level party of 4. What do you guys think?

Official monster time:
Human Archer, L7 Artillery, from H3: Pyramid Of Shadows.
R Bullseye Bolt (standard; recharge 5 6)
Ranged 15/30; +14 vs AC; 3d8 + 3 damage and the target is dazed (save ends)

It's a printed monster, even.

And you faced it at 7th level? Yeah, totally okay.

It's an ARTILLERY monster. They're supposed to slaughter you if they can, by doing massive amounts of damage - like Rangers do to monsters.

So no. He's got an appropriate damage, an appropriate to-hit, and a NASTY but appropriate effect on it. Sounds like he got lucky and recharged it unusually often, but that's the way it happens sometimes.
#5
birdursh
Dec 13, 2009 13:18:19 Well, from comparing it to the attacks of similar critters in the 2 MMs and the "rules" for creating/modifying monsters, that attack is much tougher than it should be. Unless he's getting the damage from some kind of special feature (extra 1d8 with Combat Advantage) the damage is way above the suggested for this lvl, the attack is fairly high, and if he gets those recharge roles the daze is pretty brutal.

It all comes down to luck, of course, but in my opinion the deck seems a little stacked in his favour.

*Edit

Sigh. And this is why the "rules" I mentioned above were put in quotation marks. Sometimes I wonder why I ever open the first DMG as really very little in it seems to apply to how the designers build the game.
#6
slobo777a
Dec 13, 2009 13:37:57 In theory, he gets one super-attack off every three rounds, and party focus-fire on him should knock him out (and that's the tactic the players are more or less forced to take) before he gets many of them, provided you know that's what he can do.

Of course if he hits each round, and gets two 5/6 rolls in a row (1 in 9 chance) that's roughly 50 damage and three Dazes.

In theory it would be the Rogue working round to his position and dealing with him in melee which turns things in the party favour. Or a Warlock blasting him. The crossbowman is a real problem if he constantly dazes the only PC skirmisher, and/or is in an unassailable position.

#7
LordOfWeasels
Dec 13, 2009 14:33:52
In theory, he gets one super-attack off every three rounds, and party focus-fire on him should knock him out (and that's the tactic the players are more or less forced to take) before he gets many of them, provided you know that's what he can do.

Of course if he hits each round, and gets two 5/6 rolls in a row (1 in 9 chance) that's roughly 50 damage and three Dazes.

In theory it would be the Rogue working round to his position and dealing with him in melee which turns things in the party favour. Or a Warlock blasting him. The crossbowman is a real problem if he constantly dazes the only PC skirmisher, and/or is in an unassailable position.

Very true! But, frankly, he's an L7 monster with 60HP and a "high defense" of AC 19.

He's Artillery. He will destroy you, unless you kill him a lot, first. A lot like a Ranger!
#8
mccowen
Dec 13, 2009 16:36:20
Very true! But, frankly, he's an L7 monster with 60HP and a "high defense" of AC 19.

He's Artillery. He will destroy you, unless you kill him a lot, first. A lot like a Ranger!

Plus, the party's controller should be able to shut him down, or the party's defender should be able to get in his face and make him pull out his longsword, or the party's striker should go nova and take him out... or or or. High-damage, low-defense monsters are part of the game, and responding to them appropriately is (for better or worse) part of the 4e skillset.
#9
mrdelirious
Dec 13, 2009 18:27:28 Yup. He's certainly a tough enemy, but there it is. Sucks to be on the receiving end of a glass cannon, no?
#10
slobo777a
Dec 14, 2009 7:14:02
Very true! But, frankly, he's an L7 monster with 60HP and a "high defense" of AC 19.

He's Artillery. He will destroy you, unless you kill him a lot, first. A lot like a Ranger!

Plus, the party's controller should be able to shut him down, or the party's defender should be able to get in his face and make him pull out his longsword, or the party's striker should go nova and take him out... or or or. High-damage, low-defense monsters are part of the game, and responding to them appropriately is (for better or worse) part of the 4e skillset.

Yes.

This could be perceived as a balance problem by players who have found a working "standard" battle plan through several previous encounters. For instance, if you are used to the striker calling in their kill, and taking it out as the teamwork element, in this case another character would need to drop their usual plans to back him up when he got dazed, because he was out of his depth in a straight duel (one-on-one, and with a couple of recharges of this power the crossbowman can take out the rogue easily).

Similar issue: My own group nearly lost the end of Keep on the Shadowfell because we lacked the adaptability to tackle a solo. It took us 3-4 rounds of punishment to come to our senses, and stop using our "standard" tactics that we had built up over the rest of the adventure and had seen us through ~20 other encounters.

So sometimes the answer is to augment the team tactics and recognise this kind of foe earlier next time round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wraithgnome Dec 13, 2009 11:55:06	My DM created an 8th level Artillery(crossbowman) that had as one of his attacks a ranged attack +15 vs. AC, 3d8+3 damage and target is dazed(save ends), recharge on a 5/6. My character was a 7th level rogue and this guy took me down in 3 rounds. I just think that attack is a bit much for a 7th level party of 4. What do you guys think?
#2 tyrandor Dec 13, 2009 12:09:53	Sounds like it would be much better balanced as an encounter attack with no recharge.
#3 slobo777a Dec 13, 2009 13:04:49	Sounds like it would be much better balanced as an encounter attack with no recharge. Or drop the damage to standard for that level (1d8+6?), keeping the Daze. Or make the creature Elite. The problem is top-rated damage plus Daze on a standard monster's attack.
#4 LordOfWeasels Dec 13, 2009 13:14:23	My DM created an 8th level Artillery(crossbowman) that had as one of his attacks a ranged attack +15 vs. AC, 3d8+3 damage and target is dazed(save ends), recharge on a 5/6. My character was a 7th level rogue and this guy took me down in 3 rounds. I just think that attack is a bit much for a 7th level party of 4. What do you guys think? Official monster time: Human Archer, L7 Artillery, from H3: Pyramid Of Shadows. R Bullseye Bolt (standard; recharge 5 6) Ranged 15/30; +14 vs AC; 3d8 + 3 damage and the target is dazed (save ends) It's a printed monster, even. And you faced it at 7th level? Yeah, totally okay. It's an ARTILLERY monster. They're supposed to slaughter you if they can, by doing massive amounts of damage - like Rangers do to monsters. So no. He's got an appropriate damage, an appropriate to-hit, and a NASTY but appropriate effect on it. Sounds like he got lucky and recharged it unusually often, but that's the way it happens sometimes.
#5 birdursh Dec 13, 2009 13:18:19	Well, from comparing it to the attacks of similar critters in the 2 MMs and the "rules" for creating/modifying monsters, that attack is much tougher than it should be. Unless he's getting the damage from some kind of special feature (extra 1d8 with Combat Advantage) the damage is way above the suggested for this lvl, the attack is fairly high, and if he gets those recharge roles the daze is pretty brutal. It all comes down to luck, of course, but in my opinion the deck seems a little stacked in his favour. *Edit Sigh. And this is why the "rules" I mentioned above were put in quotation marks. Sometimes I wonder why I ever open the first DMG as really very little in it seems to apply to how the designers build the game.
#6 slobo777a Dec 13, 2009 13:37:57	In theory, he gets one super-attack off every three rounds, and party focus-fire on him should knock him out (and that's the tactic the players are more or less forced to take) before he gets many of them, provided you know that's what he can do. Of course if he hits each round, and gets two 5/6 rolls in a row (1 in 9 chance) that's roughly 50 damage and three Dazes. In theory it would be the Rogue working round to his position and dealing with him in melee which turns things in the party favour. Or a Warlock blasting him. The crossbowman is a real problem if he constantly dazes the only PC skirmisher, and/or is in an unassailable position.
#7 LordOfWeasels Dec 13, 2009 14:33:52	In theory, he gets one super-attack off every three rounds, and party focus-fire on him should knock him out (and that's the tactic the players are more or less forced to take) before he gets many of them, provided you know that's what he can do. Of course if he hits each round, and gets two 5/6 rolls in a row (1 in 9 chance) that's roughly 50 damage and three Dazes. In theory it would be the Rogue working round to his position and dealing with him in melee which turns things in the party favour. Or a Warlock blasting him. The crossbowman is a real problem if he constantly dazes the only PC skirmisher, and/or is in an unassailable position. Very true! But, frankly, he's an L7 monster with 60HP and a "high defense" of AC 19. He's Artillery. He will destroy you, unless you kill him a lot, first. A lot like a Ranger!
#8 mccowen Dec 13, 2009 16:36:20	Very true! But, frankly, he's an L7 monster with 60HP and a "high defense" of AC 19. He's Artillery. He will destroy you, unless you kill him a lot, first. A lot like a Ranger! Plus, the party's controller should be able to shut him down, or the party's defender should be able to get in his face and make him pull out his longsword, or the party's striker should go nova and take him out... or or or. High-damage, low-defense monsters are part of the game, and responding to them appropriately is (for better or worse) part of the 4e skillset.
#9 mrdelirious Dec 13, 2009 18:27:28	Yup. He's certainly a tough enemy, but there it is. Sucks to be on the receiving end of a glass cannon, no?
#10 slobo777a Dec 14, 2009 7:14:02	Very true! But, frankly, he's an L7 monster with 60HP and a "high defense" of AC 19. He's Artillery. He will destroy you, unless you kill him a lot, first. A lot like a Ranger! Plus, the party's controller should be able to shut him down, or the party's defender should be able to get in his face and make him pull out his longsword, or the party's striker should go nova and take him out... or or or. High-damage, low-defense monsters are part of the game, and responding to them appropriately is (for better or worse) part of the 4e skillset. Yes. This could be perceived as a balance problem by players who have found a working "standard" battle plan through several previous encounters. For instance, if you are used to the striker calling in their kill, and taking it out as the teamwork element, in this case another character would need to drop their usual plans to back him up when he got dazed, because he was out of his depth in a straight duel (one-on-one, and with a couple of recharges of this power the crossbowman can take out the rogue easily). Similar issue: My own group nearly lost the end of Keep on the Shadowfell because we lacked the adaptability to tackle a solo. It took us 3-4 rounds of punishment to come to our senses, and stop using our "standard" tactics that we had built up over the rest of the adventure and had seen us through ~20 other encounters. So sometimes the answer is to augment the team tactics and recognise this kind of foe earlier next time round.