Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 reddrakk Jan 02, 2011 17:00:56	We're playing through Keep on the Shadowfell and are almost to level 4.  I have 1 magic item to my name (Shield of Protection).  Whenever we are in town, we get to roll a d6 and on a 5-6 the item we want is in stock.  The DM explains this is to reflect the monsters raiding caravans and the unavailability of items.  So far I haven't rolled 5-6 so there aren't any magic items for my character to buy.  I've proposed that the party travel to a larger town so we can purchase items (party was told the next largest town was too far to travel to right now in a time-sensative campaign).  I'm the party defender and I can't get magic armor! I can understand realism in gaming, but this is affecting my character's ability to fight and my enjoyment of the game and it feels like I'm getting shut down as a player.
#2 salla Jan 02, 2011 17:06:06	That is pretty ridiculous, yes. do you have a ritual caster in your group?  If so, if you can hang on for one more level, they can get the Enchant Magic Item ritual and you can make your own stuff.
#3 reddrakk Jan 02, 2011 17:54:45	No ritual caster yet, but I'm definately going to suggest we go that route if town won't be used as a place to re-equip.  Like I said, I understand wanting to put in realism with this village under siege.  However, it's really frustrating to have a character come up empty at the market every time we come to town to rest up.
#4 salla Jan 02, 2011 18:07:12	No ritual caster yet, but I'm definately going to suggest we go that route if town won't be used as a place to re-equip.  Like I said, I understand wanting to put in realism with this village under siege.  However, it's really frustrating to have a character come up empty at the market every time we come to town to rest up. Well, he should be giving out treasure as part of the adventure as well, but it sounds like he's skimping there, too.  Perhaps you could suggest the use of the Inherent Bonus system from the DMG2?
#5 vampire_bat Jan 02, 2011 20:09:56	You could also just tell the dm that ic you're going to another town to get the armor. If its too far away, oh well. You need to be properly equipped to handle the raids, etc, and this town isn't able to get the goods. Therefore to defend it you need to go stock up.
#6 reddrakk Jan 02, 2011 23:18:16	Yeah, I'll talk to the DM about in-game solutions that won't impair the sense of realism she's trying to convey.  I don't want to just cite the rules or something, but I really could use some more equipment.  It's not like I lack the gp, just the opportunity to spend it.
#7 slobo777a Jan 03, 2011 3:26:27	I was a Fighter in this adventure, my first 4E game. You are not being "locked down" if you drop behind the magic item curve for 1 or 2 levels. I survived just fine on the meagre WotC-defined pickings in that adventure. Enjoy the game.
#8 slycne Jan 03, 2011 11:07:11	I don't have the module on hand, but I seem to recall it being specifically suggested that this be the case in Winterhaven. It's a tiny town, on the border outskirts and trade is diminished. Even if you're playing in the default 4e rules that magic items are availible for sale, I think it's intended to be more indicative of the merchant's seeking profits themselves. Why would merchants be bringing expensive magic items to ware in Winterhaven? Do you think the farmers are going to buy Dwarven Plate Armor +2 instead of more seed and farming equipment? Let alone be able to afford it, and the town isn't supposed to be known as an adventurers hub in that Shadowfell Keep has since been forgotten by most everyone. My advice is simply to stop worrying about it so much, a few +1's here and there are not going to make or break your character.
#9 positronica Jan 03, 2011 11:48:57	I would definitely recommend that you ask your DM to use the Inherent Enhancement Bonus rules presented in DMG2 (or presented better in the Dark Sun Campaign Guide).  These optional rules don't make magic items obsolete; they just keep players who don't have magic items from falling significantly behind the curve.  From a DMs standpoint, it makes the handleing of treasure WAY easier, since you don't have to worry about leaving your party too weak because you haven't been giving them the right amount of loot.  It also opens up the loot and reward aspect of the story for the DM a lot.  He can keep loot and money rare is he wants, and create situations where the players actually have to think about wealth as it pertains to mundane things, without gimping the players in the process.
#10 trebor_rjf Jan 03, 2011 21:09:36	i think you should just stick it out and hope for some 5's and 6's. low level items arent huge game maker/breakers and KOTS isnt THAT hard if you have a good group of players with sound tactics.
#11 Neutronium_Dragon Jan 03, 2011 23:45:42	The lack of item purchases IS a problem if she's also using the default loot listed in the adventure: not only will it be inappropriate for some parties, but it provides far too little compared to the DMG standards, and those are the standards around which the game is balanced. This will be worse than usual if the party is still going at it at level 4 because the original adventure was written up for levels 1 to 3, so even if it was providing appropriate-to-levels loot, you'd still be short. There should be some old threads buried in this section (DM-to-do or Campaign Workshop, most likely) that discuss this; point those out to the DM.
#12 Krusk Jan 04, 2011 10:53:11	Can you leave town and come back? I dunno, it feels "video-gamie" to me for him to have random items in stock or not, and so I would look to "video game" solutions. Leave and return until the items you want are there. What about walking between two stores back and forth? If he wants to suggest consiquenses of ___ being raided caravans, and less items, I would suggest he do something like drive prices up, or compile lists of what did make it in on caravans and then only sell those items. "Sorry we don't have flaming swords, the sword guy got waylayed. We have axes though". or "Sorry, our sword guy got waylayed, so the price of swords doubled. If you can't pay that consider axes?" Swap inventory every 2 weeks in game. Sell 1 item randomly determined from the shops each day to an NPC. Or something. That way you can still get your needed items, and it doesn't feel so "Shops auto refill with random items every time you go to town."
#13 cduke Jan 04, 2011 13:54:42	can't ask the trader to try to get a magic armor for you. then next time you visit you can buy the armor?
#14 slycne Jan 04, 2011 14:12:24	Can you leave town and come back? I dunno, it feels "video-gamie" to me for him to have random items in stock or not, and so I would look to "video game" solutions. Leave and return until the items you want are there. What about walking between two stores back and forth? Further proof that everyone is a little different, because I get the exact opposite feel. It feels very video game like or hand waved to me that a merchant in a back water town would have complete stock to every magic item ever. A crude analogy would be like finding a Ferrari dealership in a town of 100 people or even say a large department store instead of a gas station and maybe a small general store.   Also my guess is that the DMs intent would be a variation of what you suggested and that the leave and come back method would not work. The player meets with the local merchant, on a 5-6 surprisingly they do have the item in stock, but if they don't you would have to wait for the next caravan to try again. Not simply reset their stock by walking outside and coming back 5 minutes later. Now something that could be done in the player's favor is increase the odds with subsequent attempts. Every good salesmen is going to be on the look out for goods if they are commonly requested. So maybe the next week or cycle it's 4-6 for the same item, then 3-6 after that and so on.    Another kinder option, along the lines you suggested as well, that still maintains the spirit of the ruling would be to randomize the enchantment or specifics of the requested item. So for example, while they are probably always have a set of magic leather armor in stock, it might not be specifically what you are looking for unless you make the roll. So do you buy the Darkleaf Leather now or continue to hold out for them to get Repulsion Leather.  Either of those can strike a nice balance between meticulously tracking every single mercantile item exchange and simple saying everything is available.
#15 chaosturtle Jan 04, 2011 15:45:22	Even if they don't have the specific item they should have something close..."oh sorry, we don't have any enchanted fullplate, but we do have some enchanted chainmail."
#16 salla Jan 04, 2011 18:53:11	] Further proof that everyone is a little different, because I get the exact opposite feel. It feels very video game like or hand waved to me that a merchant in a back water town would have complete stock to every magic item ever. I wouldn't think he would have *any* magic items in stock; too tempting a target for thieves, too hard to protect.  However, I wouldn't find it infeasible that there could be someone who could craft them on commission.  There's no reason to create them in advance when there's very little chance he could sell them, but he stands to make a fortune if he makes them on demand, and then has no overhead between creations.
#17 slycne Jan 04, 2011 19:30:45	] Further proof that everyone is a little different, because I get the exact opposite feel. It feels very video game like or hand waved to me that a merchant in a back water town would have complete stock to every magic item ever. I wouldn't think he would have *any* magic items in stock; too tempting a target for thieves, too hard to protect.  However, I wouldn't find it infeasible that there could be someone who could craft them on commission.  There's no reason to create them in advance when there's very little chance he could sell them, but he stands to make a fortune if he makes them on demand, and then has no overhead between creations. That's certainly a fair enough justification. Though I think it could run afoul of some of the same problems in that the material components for the rituals cost the same as the item created. So unless our would be enchanter is rubbing a few thousand gold worth of potatoes over that newly minted sword, he's carrying the necessary runes, special inks, gems, etc - that you would use to bind your enchantment to an item with. It's probably assumed that some of what the players are paying him then, in coin and treasure, is involved in the creation. Not only did you free the black diamond from the dragon, but now it's on the end of your wand! And then also the smaller issue of explaining why he's in a backwater town instead a more marketable hub. Especially so if they are looking for high level enchantment as the caster must be of that level or higher than the item. While he'd be the only supplier, there would be little to no demand in the town the discussion pertains to. But the DM could come up with a reason for the merchant/enchanter to be there, such a high level NPC should be a more than just magic item ATM.  --- So I actually dug out the module in question and it seems the DM is being fairly generous. By default, Winterhaven's Market Square has only a 50% chance of having any adventuring gear and will never have weapons, armor or magic items. The Smithy can create none magical items. The highest level ritual caster knows only 1st and 2nd level rituals. And Bairwin's Grand Shoppe "occasionally has a few 1st-level magic items for sale". Not saying that the module should necessarily be set in stone, but a 1/3rd chance beats 0.
#18 Krusk Jan 04, 2011 19:48:06	I wouldn't think he would have *any* magic items in stock; too tempting a target for thieves, too hard to protect.  However, I wouldn't find it infeasible that there could be someone who could craft them on commission.  There's no reason to create them in advance when there's very little chance he could sell them, but he stands to make a fortune if he makes them on demand, and then has no overhead between creations. This is how I always run it in my personal games. The item smith does everything for the magic item creation but saying the last word. Obviously every mage makes items in a totally different way, so he is the only one who can finish the ritual.  When you buy the item he goes in back, says the last word and brings out your item.
#19 Cohen95 Jan 04, 2011 21:45:01	People who are pointing out the realism of a small town not having a large stock of magic items are missing a very large point: The OP's playing experience and enjoyment of the game are being diminished by the forced application of realism. Also, this isn't about getting sandbagged for a couple of levels, this is a level 4 PC with exactly 1 item, when the party is supposed to get (members-1) items per level. OP: Talk to the DM about the inherent bonus system if she wants to keep this up (and point out that enhancement and inherent bonuses SHOULD NOT STACK), and everything should be fine. I had the same problem in a 4e game, two consecutive DMs just had no concept of treasure parcels, and I had to constantly ask after every encounter if there were any magic items. By level 7, I think I had three items. At that point, I started DMing (we do a type of round-robin). I corrected the problem, and made sure everybody knew why I was doing it, and from where I was taking the rule. D&D is, by default a high-fantasy game. You can make it low-fantasy, but it requires give & take, not just take. If you're going to take out magic items, you need to put something else in its place, otherwise the game lacks balance and quickly falls apart at higher levels.
#20 Svempa Jan 05, 2011 21:32:14	What about walking between two stores back and forth? lol... I just love this solution... Pure meta-gaming at its best! A "subtle" way of saying that he's being to stingy, but it might make the DM angry. ;) Seriously. He is being to stingy. If he's a reasonable DM it should be enough to tell him that you think it would be more fun if you got more rewards. Shouldn't it?
#21 Pashalik_Mons Jan 05, 2011 23:04:50	The Inherent Bonus could make this all go a lot smoother, so yes, suggest that. But you can easily have realism and and magic items in a small town.  Th smithy doesn't have to be a huge magic super store with every item ever, but they could happen to have the item you want.  Or the smithy might know of a local who got a set of armor off of a traveller and might be willing to sell it.  Perhaps the local has no idea that the armor is magical, but charges magic pricing in an attempt to gouge the player.  My point is that there are many more ways than a super store in which a magic item could enter a character's hands and some gold could leave them.