Jumping off a cliff? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Jumping off a cliff?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
arthurhoneyhill
Jul 07, 2008 16:19:09 I know this is a 4e thread, but I play 3.5 and this is more of a role-playing question.

I'm playing a halfling beguiler from the PHII, and I had this idea for a scene. If we are at some kind of high sea-side cliff, and I jumped off during a big, dramatic roleplaying scene with the BBEG, could I use my wand of dimension door to transport into the water [within range] and not take falling damage?

It would make the BBEG super-shocked. And I was wondering if I could use dimension door again [within range] to teleport behind the BBEG and then be able to use my Surprise Casting class feature [+1 to save DC when target is flat-footed] against him to cast hold person or dominate monster or something.

What are you guy's thoughts on something like this?
#2
kouk
Jul 07, 2008 18:31:10 I think it depends how high the cliff is, as I seem to recall falling speed was something like 300feet a round (from one of the Rules of the Game articles).
#3
some_call_me_tim
Jul 07, 2008 19:11:44 From a role-play perspective, it sounds great. Maybe your DM will overlook the letter of rules to allow this crazy plan. I'm usually more tolerate of bending rules to allow good roleplay especially if you are facing a BBEG, because it would make the fight that much more exciting.

As for letter of the rules, won't work. The FAQ (p. 91) now says that "If you’re plummeting toward the ground when you cast teleport to reach a safe spot, you’d still be “falling” and would therefore take damage as appropriate to the distance you actually fell before teleporting."

In the explanation, it talks about physics and conservation of momentum; personally, I think it a lot of hooey, it's magic after all. If you continue that argument then if teleport 1000 miles north of your current location, your momentum would fling you at about 100 miles/hour to the east, due to the planet's rotation (assuming planet about Earth's diameter and two location in the northern hemisphere). Ouch. Obviously, the sage hasn't learned that physics and magic don't always play nice. Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox now.

The question is will you have enough time to cast before you go splash. If the cliff is 600 feet high (you will fall 576 feet in around--FAQ suggest you round that to 500 feet), no problem you won't hit before you have a full round of actions. If it is less, then it depends on the DM. If you are intentionally doing it I would probably allow it if you have 200 feet or so since it is only a standard action and not an entire round. I probably wouldn't allow it on this short of distance if you are tossed because you aren't ready to cast the spell. You also said you are using a wand so even easier, if you were falling and casting I would probably call for a concentration check.

One other nit-pick, the target would not be flat-footed as the combat has already begun (you are only flat-footed until your first turn in combat). I don't know the exacting wording of the surprise casting ability but if it uses the term flat-footed it won't work. I probably wouldn't bend on this rule because it could be abused repeatedly.
#4
doomsought
Jul 07, 2008 19:23:32 you just teleport a bit deep in the water with oreantation altered 90 degrees.
#5
josheva
Jul 08, 2008 13:18:22 The idea about teleporting not stopping falling damage is that your momentum when you end the teleport is equal to your momentum when you began the teleport; the spell is changing your position, not your velocity. If you jumped off a 100ft cliff you would take 10d6 falling damage. If you jumped off the same cliff, fell 70ft, then teleported to the ground (therefore bypassing the last 30ft) you would take 7d6 falling damage.
#6
arthurhoneyhill
Jul 08, 2008 14:49:42 My point is that I would teleport into water; I would still be moving at terminal velocity, but the water would greatly reduce that speed extremely fast, and I'm pretty sure physics-wise I wouldn't take falling damage.

And I'm assuming the cliff is 200-400 feet in height, low enough for dimension door to work in range. Assuming I cast it directly after jumping, I think there would be enought time to cast it, as it's a standard action, so about 2-3 seconds. So I think that teleporting into water would reduce, if not nullify the falling damage.

Also, If I was falling and was able to pinpoint accuracy well, and I teleported directly on the ground, face down or whatever, where am I supposed to fall to? I'm going terminal velocity, but all it would be would be pressure. That's another possible way to reduce the falling damage to maybe only 3d6 or so.

And regarding the flat-footedness, I was talking about doing this during a BBEG's monologue or something. So no one would have rolled initiative. And think about it OOC, if you were a big bad guy, and then some little halfling jumps off a cliff for no reason, and then 10 seconds later, you get a knife to the back, would you be surprised? I know I would be. But that's a discretion for my DM I suppose.

I just want to do this to be cool. Thanks for all your suggsestions.
#7
some_call_me_tim
Jul 08, 2008 16:46:46
My point is that I would teleport into water; I would still be moving at terminal velocity, but the water would greatly reduce that speed extremely fast, and I'm pretty sure physics-wise I wouldn't take falling damage.

As the old joke goes, the fall doesn't kill you, it's the sudden stop at the end.

So, physics-wise you would still suffer the same deceleration and g-forces as if you had fallen into the water from a great height (albeit a slight reduction because of no surface tension). Even if you could re-orient the movement as Doom suggested you would still see the same sudden stop. Damage would be the same.

I like players being creative, but you got to be sure it doesn't open a loophole in the rules big enough to drive a gelatinous cube through. So, discuss these tactics with your DM, don't abuse it if he let's it happen vs. this BBEG.
#8
josheva
Jul 11, 2008 13:37:50
My point is that I would teleport into water; I would still be moving at terminal velocity, but the water would greatly reduce that speed extremely fast

Yes, and as Tim said, that's what kills you. The only reason that hitting the ground is more deadly than hitting water is because it slows you down faster.
#9
borris
Jul 12, 2008 17:18:42 Conservation of momentum with teleportation is iffy at best. As Tim pointed out earlier, on a rotating Earth-like planet, going more than a few hundred miles north or south would pretty much have the same effect as jumping from train speeding at 100 miles/hour. Even worse, say you're on the equator, standing firmly on the ground. You then teleport to the same lattitude, but one quarter of the earth's circumference east or west. If you're going east, the direction your momentum was taking you is now away from earth, launching you upwards at a speed of 1000 miles/hour. If you're going west instead, your momentum is throwing your straight towards the earth, slamming you against the ground at the same 1000 miles/hour. Good thing falling damage caps at 20d6. And should you teleport at the exact opposite point on the equator, you'd find that the floor suddenly starts moving under your feet at a speed of 2000 miles/hour.

Unless, of course, you can conserve momentum but change its orientation, such as by teleporting upside down, or just facing east instead of west. But in this case, why would you just teleport underwater. Rather, take out a spear or other pointy object and teleport next to the BBEG so that "down" is now "towards his face". With a terminal velocity of 576 feet/round, you'll burst beside him at a speed of 65 miles/hour. Surely there's a way to craft some ludicrous plans with this.
#10
kursk
Jul 12, 2008 17:23:52
the spell is changing your position, not your velocity.

So, if you were at the equator and teleported 1000 miles north you would die? Since your velocity isn't changed...
#11
captfisher
Jul 12, 2008 19:02:20 As I see it from the first post, I as a DM would allow it. In my mind it plays out like this...

on your action you take a move action to jump from the cliff, and a standard action to activate your wand, this puts you in the water below, because it all takes place in the same round...no worse off than diving in a swimming pool.

Second round you use it to put yourself back up behind the BBEG..I frequently require a roll for accuracy, for you location

Third round you make your attack, even in the middle of combat he is flatfooted if he is unaware of your being there, and there is the trick.

The spell doesn't have to be silent. Maybe there is a pop , or a sizzle...I would give the BBEG a listen or spot check to notice your arrival unless you give yourself cover/concealment.

As for the physics part of the discussion...momentum is constant in a given referance frame. Any teleport spell changes referance frames and therefore could and would send us flying into space or stuff all the time. A simple hundred mile teleport north...given earth like conditions....would have you out in space as the earth moves away from its location.

so lets say through some weird force...call it magic..the two frames are equalized to each other, then if i was moving at 10 ft per second relative to the "motionless" ground, i would still be moving at 10 ft per second to the ground at my destination.

Why can't this force we call magic stop the momentum as I teleport...answer it can, it just doesnt in the most common version of the spell, after all mages file physics texts under fiction and hold the laws of thermodynamics to be lose quidelines at best.

I dont really like to include physics in my magic discussions (you got physics on my magic. You got magic on my physics) I dont like to think that my wizards understand a lot of physics. They figure out what they can do with magic ( which doesnt care about physics) and go on.

Just my thoughts
#12
arthurhoneyhill
Jul 13, 2008 11:21:07
Yes, and as Tim said, that's what kills you. The only reason that hitting the ground is more deadly than hitting water is because it slows you down faster.

But I would teleport INTO the water, therefore I'm not actually hitting anything.

Like the old joke goes, it's not the fall that kills you, it's hitting the ground. If I never hit the ground, just end up INSIDE a body of water, then no damage. Apart from drowning or something.
#13
dalzig
Jul 13, 2008 15:26:31
But I would teleport INTO the water, therefore I'm not actually hitting anything.

Like the old joke goes, it's not the fall that kills you, it's hitting the ground. If I never hit the ground, just end up INSIDE a body of water, then no damage. Apart from drowning or something.

You would reduce damage, yes. But your insides would still be hitting the outsides of your body. You might not break bones but your brains, heart, and lungs aren't going to be happy by it.
#14
josheva
Jul 14, 2008 13:33:53 In response to everyone bringing up the curvature and rotation of the earth:

Magic and physics aren't perfectly adapted to each other. That's why magic doesn't exist in the real world. If you seriously need an explanation for that conundrum, which you should not because it ignores the intention of teleportation spells, then imagine this: The reference plane you are teleporting through is twisted.

In response to the OP stating that you are not *hitting* the water:

Since your momentum is conserved through the teleport, you come out of the spell moving downward. Whether you are striking the surface of the water or not, the water is still applying force to slow you down, and hence, you still take falling damage.
#15
pigknight
Jul 14, 2008 15:39:26 Wouldn't teleportation instantly kill you and cause an atom to split?

Reason why I don't mix physics and D&D.
#16
Kaganfindel
Jul 14, 2008 16:11:05 OK, so you leave the portal on the other end at the same speed as you entered it, but do you necessarily leave it on the same heading?

If I was running it I'd reward a player with such an audacious plan by making it a two part challenge. The first part of the challenge would be to give him the opportunity to think his way around the problem. I'd tell him he could go through the dimension door, but that he'd come out the other end at the same speed as he entered it.

If he asked if he could arrive at a right angle, essentially spitting him out horizontally at fifty miles an hour, I'd tell him he could probably do it with a skill check (at sufficient difficulty to make it about 60/40 in his favor,) and that failure would be really, spectacularly fatal. At that point it's up to him to bet his life on the gambit or not.
#17
josheva
Jul 15, 2008 13:26:50
Reason why I don't mix physics and D&D.

It's impossible to neglect mixing physics and DND. How else would your characters walk around?

Anyways, I do agree that it is sometimes better to leave physics out of it. It is tiring to constantly have to explain the science to people people who don't fully understand it but try to use it anyways. Forgive my use of the situation, but "teleporting into the water to neglect falling damage" is a perfect example of this. Usually, physics explanations are best used to counter those who try to wield them as weapons :P
#18
MrCustomer
Jul 15, 2008 14:42:41
The idea about teleporting not stopping falling damage is that your momentum when you end the teleport is equal to your momentum when you began the teleport; the spell is changing your position, not your velocity. If you jumped off a 100ft cliff you would take 10d6 falling damage. If you jumped off the same cliff, fell 70ft, then teleported to the ground (therefore bypassing the last 30ft) you would take 7d6 falling damage.

What if you were more specific as to where you teleported to?

Yes your velocity is the same when you enter and exit, but your position is different. If you can choose where you teleport to, you also choose what direction you are facing.

Thus if you are facing west when you teleported you could be facing North (if you disired) when you exit. Just as when you teleport into the throne room to assasinate the king, you would want to be facing the throne when you arived not with your back to it.

Therefore when you teleport while falling you can choose to arrive going in a different direction then down. Such as facing horizontally, so that instead of going 300mph towards the bottom of the cliff youu could be facing out into the water and tossed sideways at a slight upwards incline, thus you would fly out and up in an arc and slow down some before hitting the water with considerably less force then a dirrectly downwards plunge.
#19
_jayne_cobb_
Jul 15, 2008 15:27:30 Cast the blue dimension door right beneath you and the orange one right beside and and then you can fly back up to the top of the cliff again.
#20
Kaganfindel
Jul 15, 2008 15:30:01
Cast the blue dimension door right beneath you and the orange one right beside and and then you can fly back up to the top of the cliff again.

Well done, android. The Enrichment Center once again reminds you that Android Hell is a real place where you will be sent at the first sign of defiance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arthurhoneyhill Jul 07, 2008 16:19:09	I know this is a 4e thread, but I play 3.5 and this is more of a role-playing question. I'm playing a halfling beguiler from the PHII, and I had this idea for a scene. If we are at some kind of high sea-side cliff, and I jumped off during a big, dramatic roleplaying scene with the BBEG, could I use my wand of dimension door to transport into the water [within range] and not take falling damage? It would make the BBEG super-shocked. And I was wondering if I could use dimension door again [within range] to teleport behind the BBEG and then be able to use my Surprise Casting class feature [+1 to save DC when target is flat-footed] against him to cast hold person or dominate monster or something. What are you guy's thoughts on something like this?
#2 kouk Jul 07, 2008 18:31:10	I think it depends how high the cliff is, as I seem to recall falling speed was something like 300feet a round (from one of the Rules of the Game articles).
#3 some_call_me_tim Jul 07, 2008 19:11:44	From a role-play perspective, it sounds great. Maybe your DM will overlook the letter of rules to allow this crazy plan. I'm usually more tolerate of bending rules to allow good roleplay especially if you are facing a BBEG, because it would make the fight that much more exciting. As for letter of the rules, won't work. The FAQ (p. 91) now says that "If you’re plummeting toward the ground when you cast teleport to reach a safe spot, you’d still be “falling” and would therefore take damage as appropriate to the distance you actually fell before teleporting." In the explanation, it talks about physics and conservation of momentum; personally, I think it a lot of hooey, it's magic after all. If you continue that argument then if teleport 1000 miles north of your current location, your momentum would fling you at about 100 miles/hour to the east, due to the planet's rotation (assuming planet about Earth's diameter and two location in the northern hemisphere). Ouch. Obviously, the sage hasn't learned that physics and magic don't always play nice. Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox now. The question is will you have enough time to cast before you go splash. If the cliff is 600 feet high (you will fall 576 feet in around--FAQ suggest you round that to 500 feet), no problem you won't hit before you have a full round of actions. If it is less, then it depends on the DM. If you are intentionally doing it I would probably allow it if you have 200 feet or so since it is only a standard action and not an entire round. I probably wouldn't allow it on this short of distance if you are tossed because you aren't ready to cast the spell. You also said you are using a wand so even easier, if you were falling and casting I would probably call for a concentration check. One other nit-pick, the target would not be flat-footed as the combat has already begun (you are only flat-footed until your first turn in combat). I don't know the exacting wording of the surprise casting ability but if it uses the term flat-footed it won't work. I probably wouldn't bend on this rule because it could be abused repeatedly.
#4 doomsought Jul 07, 2008 19:23:32	you just teleport a bit deep in the water with oreantation altered 90 degrees.
#5 josheva Jul 08, 2008 13:18:22	The idea about teleporting not stopping falling damage is that your momentum when you end the teleport is equal to your momentum when you began the teleport; the spell is changing your position, not your velocity. If you jumped off a 100ft cliff you would take 10d6 falling damage. If you jumped off the same cliff, fell 70ft, then teleported to the ground (therefore bypassing the last 30ft) you would take 7d6 falling damage.
#6 arthurhoneyhill Jul 08, 2008 14:49:42	My point is that I would teleport into water; I would still be moving at terminal velocity, but the water would greatly reduce that speed extremely fast, and I'm pretty sure physics-wise I wouldn't take falling damage. And I'm assuming the cliff is 200-400 feet in height, low enough for dimension door to work in range. Assuming I cast it directly after jumping, I think there would be enought time to cast it, as it's a standard action, so about 2-3 seconds. So I think that teleporting into water would reduce, if not nullify the falling damage. Also, If I was falling and was able to pinpoint accuracy well, and I teleported directly on the ground, face down or whatever, where am I supposed to fall to? I'm going terminal velocity, but all it would be would be pressure. That's another possible way to reduce the falling damage to maybe only 3d6 or so. And regarding the flat-footedness, I was talking about doing this during a BBEG's monologue or something. So no one would have rolled initiative. And think about it OOC, if you were a big bad guy, and then some little halfling jumps off a cliff for no reason, and then 10 seconds later, you get a knife to the back, would you be surprised? I know I would be. But that's a discretion for my DM I suppose. I just want to do this to be cool. Thanks for all your suggsestions.
#7 some_call_me_tim Jul 08, 2008 16:46:46	My point is that I would teleport into water; I would still be moving at terminal velocity, but the water would greatly reduce that speed extremely fast, and I'm pretty sure physics-wise I wouldn't take falling damage. As the old joke goes, the fall doesn't kill you, it's the sudden stop at the end. So, physics-wise you would still suffer the same deceleration and g-forces as if you had fallen into the water from a great height (albeit a slight reduction because of no surface tension). Even if you could re-orient the movement as Doom suggested you would still see the same sudden stop. Damage would be the same. I like players being creative, but you got to be sure it doesn't open a loophole in the rules big enough to drive a gelatinous cube through. So, discuss these tactics with your DM, don't abuse it if he let's it happen vs. this BBEG.
#8 josheva Jul 11, 2008 13:37:50	My point is that I would teleport into water; I would still be moving at terminal velocity, but the water would greatly reduce that speed extremely fast Yes, and as Tim said, that's what kills you. The only reason that hitting the ground is more deadly than hitting water is because it slows you down faster.
#9 borris Jul 12, 2008 17:18:42	Conservation of momentum with teleportation is iffy at best. As Tim pointed out earlier, on a rotating Earth-like planet, going more than a few hundred miles north or south would pretty much have the same effect as jumping from train speeding at 100 miles/hour. Even worse, say you're on the equator, standing firmly on the ground. You then teleport to the same lattitude, but one quarter of the earth's circumference east or west. If you're going east, the direction your momentum was taking you is now away from earth, launching you upwards at a speed of 1000 miles/hour. If you're going west instead, your momentum is throwing your straight towards the earth, slamming you against the ground at the same 1000 miles/hour. Good thing falling damage caps at 20d6. And should you teleport at the exact opposite point on the equator, you'd find that the floor suddenly starts moving under your feet at a speed of 2000 miles/hour. Unless, of course, you can conserve momentum but change its orientation, such as by teleporting upside down, or just facing east instead of west. But in this case, why would you just teleport underwater. Rather, take out a spear or other pointy object and teleport next to the BBEG so that "down" is now "towards his face". With a terminal velocity of 576 feet/round, you'll burst beside him at a speed of 65 miles/hour. Surely there's a way to craft some ludicrous plans with this.
#10 kursk Jul 12, 2008 17:23:52	the spell is changing your position, not your velocity. So, if you were at the equator and teleported 1000 miles north you would die? Since your velocity isn't changed...
#11 captfisher Jul 12, 2008 19:02:20	As I see it from the first post, I as a DM would allow it. In my mind it plays out like this... on your action you take a move action to jump from the cliff, and a standard action to activate your wand, this puts you in the water below, because it all takes place in the same round...no worse off than diving in a swimming pool. Second round you use it to put yourself back up behind the BBEG..I frequently require a roll for accuracy, for you location Third round you make your attack, even in the middle of combat he is flatfooted if he is unaware of your being there, and there is the trick. The spell doesn't have to be silent. Maybe there is a pop , or a sizzle...I would give the BBEG a listen or spot check to notice your arrival unless you give yourself cover/concealment. As for the physics part of the discussion...momentum is constant in a given referance frame. Any teleport spell changes referance frames and therefore could and would send us flying into space or stuff all the time. A simple hundred mile teleport north...given earth like conditions....would have you out in space as the earth moves away from its location. so lets say through some weird force...call it magic..the two frames are equalized to each other, then if i was moving at 10 ft per second relative to the "motionless" ground, i would still be moving at 10 ft per second to the ground at my destination. Why can't this force we call magic stop the momentum as I teleport...answer it can, it just doesnt in the most common version of the spell, after all mages file physics texts under fiction and hold the laws of thermodynamics to be lose quidelines at best. I dont really like to include physics in my magic discussions (you got physics on my magic. You got magic on my physics) I dont like to think that my wizards understand a lot of physics. They figure out what they can do with magic ( which doesnt care about physics) and go on. Just my thoughts
#12 arthurhoneyhill Jul 13, 2008 11:21:07	Yes, and as Tim said, that's what kills you. The only reason that hitting the ground is more deadly than hitting water is because it slows you down faster. But I would teleport INTO the water, therefore I'm not actually hitting anything. Like the old joke goes, it's not the fall that kills you, it's hitting the ground. If I never hit the ground, just end up INSIDE a body of water, then no damage. Apart from drowning or something.
#13 dalzig Jul 13, 2008 15:26:31	But I would teleport INTO the water, therefore I'm not actually hitting anything. Like the old joke goes, it's not the fall that kills you, it's hitting the ground. If I never hit the ground, just end up INSIDE a body of water, then no damage. Apart from drowning or something. You would reduce damage, yes. But your insides would still be hitting the outsides of your body. You might not break bones but your brains, heart, and lungs aren't going to be happy by it.
#14 josheva Jul 14, 2008 13:33:53	In response to everyone bringing up the curvature and rotation of the earth: Magic and physics aren't perfectly adapted to each other. That's why magic doesn't exist in the real world. If you seriously need an explanation for that conundrum, which you should not because it ignores the intention of teleportation spells, then imagine this: The reference plane you are teleporting through is twisted. In response to the OP stating that you are not hitting the water: Since your momentum is conserved through the teleport, you come out of the spell moving downward. Whether you are striking the surface of the water or not, the water is still applying force to slow you down, and hence, you still take falling damage.
#15 pigknight Jul 14, 2008 15:39:26	Wouldn't teleportation instantly kill you and cause an atom to split? Reason why I don't mix physics and D&D.
#16 Kaganfindel Jul 14, 2008 16:11:05	OK, so you leave the portal on the other end at the same speed as you entered it, but do you necessarily leave it on the same heading? If I was running it I'd reward a player with such an audacious plan by making it a two part challenge. The first part of the challenge would be to give him the opportunity to think his way around the problem. I'd tell him he could go through the dimension door, but that he'd come out the other end at the same speed as he entered it. If he asked if he could arrive at a right angle, essentially spitting him out horizontally at fifty miles an hour, I'd tell him he could probably do it with a skill check (at sufficient difficulty to make it about 60/40 in his favor,) and that failure would be really, spectacularly fatal. At that point it's up to him to bet his life on the gambit or not.
#17 josheva Jul 15, 2008 13:26:50	Reason why I don't mix physics and D&D. It's impossible to neglect mixing physics and DND. How else would your characters walk around? Anyways, I do agree that it is sometimes better to leave physics out of it. It is tiring to constantly have to explain the science to people people who don't fully understand it but try to use it anyways. Forgive my use of the situation, but "teleporting into the water to neglect falling damage" is a perfect example of this. Usually, physics explanations are best used to counter those who try to wield them as weapons :P
#18 MrCustomer Jul 15, 2008 14:42:41	The idea about teleporting not stopping falling damage is that your momentum when you end the teleport is equal to your momentum when you began the teleport; the spell is changing your position, not your velocity. If you jumped off a 100ft cliff you would take 10d6 falling damage. If you jumped off the same cliff, fell 70ft, then teleported to the ground (therefore bypassing the last 30ft) you would take 7d6 falling damage. What if you were more specific as to where you teleported to? Yes your velocity is the same when you enter and exit, but your position is different. If you can choose where you teleport to, you also choose what direction you are facing. Thus if you are facing west when you teleported you could be facing North (if you disired) when you exit. Just as when you teleport into the throne room to assasinate the king, you would want to be facing the throne when you arived not with your back to it. Therefore when you teleport while falling you can choose to arrive going in a different direction then down. Such as facing horizontally, so that instead of going 300mph towards the bottom of the cliff youu could be facing out into the water and tossed sideways at a slight upwards incline, thus you would fly out and up in an arc and slow down some before hitting the water with considerably less force then a dirrectly downwards plunge.
#19 _jayne_cobb_ Jul 15, 2008 15:27:30	Cast the blue dimension door right beneath you and the orange one right beside and and then you can fly back up to the top of the cliff again.
#20 Kaganfindel Jul 15, 2008 15:30:01	Cast the blue dimension door right beneath you and the orange one right beside and and then you can fly back up to the top of the cliff again. Well done, android. The Enrichment Center once again reminds you that Android Hell is a real place where you will be sent at the first sign of defiance.