Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Metafictional Dec 28, 2010 21:00:49	This keeps coming up, and I'm starting to develop a twitch in my right eye when it happens.  The DM presents you with a problem, you say "aha, well, I'll do this!", and the response is "Haha, very cute.  Ok so this is a Skill Challenge..." For example, we were in an abandoned temple filled with deadly traps.  We encountered a spinning metal blade that blocked our passage, and looked likely to cut whoever tried to get past it to ribbons.  Considering that the Sorcerer has Acid Orb, I told him to shoot at it. Now granted, sure, technically Acid Orb can only target creatures, but the DM didn't even go there.  He immediately began to tell us what rolls we'd need to make to avoid or disable the trap! Another time, we were presented with a wide chasm, and told we'd need to make Athletics or Acrobatics checks to get across.  I was playing my Storm Sorcerer at the time, and I was like "or, you know, I could just use Sorcerous Sirocco to fly me and the Cleric across". Heck, I still remember a Skills Challenge that inolved us getting to a place in time to prevent an attack by the bad guys, and I suggested using my Bridle of Conjuration and using my horse to get there faster.  I think I got a +2 bonus to my Athletics roll (I still failed). I've been gaming for a long time, and while I have no problem with characters using their skills to overcome challenges, Skill Challenges really feel forced to me, like I'm supposed to disable my problem-solving skills and leave everything up to a die roll. I suppose I might be looking at this backwards, and that a successful die roll would allow me to implement the solution I thought of, as my character may not have the same problem-solving skills I possess...but then again, I don't possess the 18 Intelligence of my Wizard! What really bugs me though, is when I suggest using an actual Power my character possesses, innately or from a magic item.  Is there something wrong with an Eladrin wanting to use his Fey Step to get beyond an obstacle instead of rolling some check he might not be very good at?
#2 RedSiegfried Dec 28, 2010 21:12:05	There is absolutely nothing wrong with players using powers in a skill challenge.  IMO, the DM should learn to say "Yes, and ..." when you do something he doesn't expect or want, instead of "No, you can't do that."  Besides, a number of powers are made to boost skills. You probably feel like skill challenges are being forced on you because they ARE BEING FORCED ON YOU.  Or at least a particular solution to the skill challenge is.  That is just poor DMing.  Period. Here's an idea.  Let's stop calling them skill challenges altogether.  Why not just call them non-combat encounters?  But then we'd have to come up with a term for skill challenges that also included combat ... oh well. How can you get your DM to open up his horizons and understand that not everything the players do will fit into his preconceived notions of what a skill challenge is?  In other words, how can you get him to realize that just because it's called a skill challenge that doesn't mean that only skill checks are allowed?  Does your DM have DMG2?  The concept of skill challenges is expanded upon greatly there.  Could you possibly direct him to some websites containing SCs that involve more than just skill checks?  Could you possibly create an example for him and see what he thinks of it? No matter what the solution, if you're dissatisfied with his DMing in some way you need to talk with him about it.  That's always the first step.
#3 Metafictional Dec 28, 2010 23:27:56	Well I'm in several games right now, with different DM's, and I really do enjoy the games...right up until the skill challenge starts.  I feel like I almost never have the 'required skill', and I'm forced to try and con the DM in letting me use something else- and even then, most of the time all I get to do is grant a +2 bonus to someone who actually has the right skill! Most of the time they are running from published material, which apparently doesn't give them much in the way of troubleshooting for the presented SC's.  I guess there's just a dearth of well-designed skill challenges, and not enough examples of how to run them. I'm not sure about the DMG2, I haven't read it myself, but you'd think this sort of thing would have been in the first DMG, lol.
#4 BilopTheFleshwarper Dec 29, 2010 4:25:57	Skill challanges are good in idea(roll on skills, acomplish goal! gain xp and treasure!) but are poor in execution, specially the physical challenges. Many if not all physical challenges... aren't. Often characters have powers or items that can render the challange moot.  Physical encounters I like to group into... Disable(traps, locks and rune circles), Escape/Chase(running, jumping, climbing trees to catch up to or run away from people), and Endure(extended skill challanges, wilderness survival, repetative tasks).  Disable: It takes a skilled person to do Disable SC's, so to keep the others involved, you need to keep them distracted. The easiest way is combat, keep the wizard safe while he deals with the circles, push the squish walls apart while the rogue disables the OTHER deadly trap in the room, stand guard while the rogue picks a lock, pretty basic... but one, maybe two characters can be involved before it gets rediculous. Escape/Chase: Pretty self explanitory... Everyone can participate... but you're likely to get failures and risk utter failure, due to casters which down't always have athletics, acrobatics, or endurance trained.  With success or failure you still have options, a failed chase(if largely hindered by a single character) can be declared a success but the character that failed a lot, won't be in the next encounter, cause he's still catching up.  And on the reverse side, an Escape SC(that failed by one of the team primarily) could still be declared a success, but that guy who didn't get away has an encounter(or is just captured).  But the option remains for the characters to "stay together" heroicly, not leaving people behind for impossible encounters, or to make the next encounter harder for them. Endure: Endure SC's are either unneeded(due to not being time sensitive) or are HIGHLY time sensitive and success or failure can have definate results.  Clearing brush, chopping down a forest, digging a moat... usually not time sensitive, don't roll skills.  Something like... rescuing miners from a mine collapse, is.  I use the name endure because it should be the main skill in most of these, lift a bunch of heavy objects in quick succession with no breaks. Wilderness Survival falls into this catagory too, not a big deal if time isn't a big problem, But hugely important if it is... Incoming blizzard? Foraging while riding to a town that's under attack(cause you ran out of rations a week ago)? Existing in Darksun Champaign?  All good examples. Though they are often supplemented by Nature and other knowledge skills that smart players can take advantage of. The Problem:  Magic items.  Everfull picknick baskets, boots of jumping, cloaks of cold resistance, impenitrible barding, Ring of sustinance(3.5... best survival item ever... with the Ioun stone where you don't have to breath.). Rituals.   Magic movement powers. So here's what i do... If there is going to be a physical skill challange I'll read it thru and unless it actually has an element that is unusual... I skip it and just present the situation, and let the players find their way thru(they always do)  But... I play in a group where I'm the youngest and LEAST experienced in RPG's... at 25 years old, and only 10 solid years of gaming(started at the tail end of 2nd ed adv...)  ... In a group of inexperienced players that aren't comfortable jumping to conclusions and acting out to make sure their point is made.... I'd probably use SC's as Written... and skip them when at all possible.
#5 zmortis Dec 29, 2010 10:05:27	What I find interesting here is that in a lot of other threads when I suggest having characters being roleplayed through social dynamics with NPCs any number of players jump up to defend how that is "unfair" and insist that only dice rolled skill checks should be used.  Now we have someone who reasonabily in my mind wants to apply some personal knowledge which isn't outside his character concept's grasp to know (or ability set) being told once again, you can't use real solutions, only dice rolled skill checks should be used.  The difference is in each case a "roll" isn't required to determine a success, but the players have to think (within the constraints of their character concept), and the DM has to make a reasonable adjudication on the relative merit of the attempt.  I keep separating this into players and DMs who prefer a role playing/problem solving approach to gaming, and players who just want to skip through some dice rolls in a roll playing approach to gaming.  Neither approach is right or wrong, and either approach can be used depending on the group of players involved. My suggested solution has always been find the kind of gaming group which agrees with your prefered gaming approach.  If you want to Role Play in a group that only wants dice based mechanical resolutions to problem solving, then you need to find a different compatible group.  If you want to Roll Play in a group that wants acted social encounters, and player thinking on problem solving, then you also need to find a different compatible group.  Both kinds of groups and players exist, and the game of D&D is big enough to accomodate either style. I hope this helps.
#6 goujoe_the_bumpkin Dec 29, 2010 17:15:12	Honestly, I tend to find that the most fun thing about D&D is going about things in creative and non-rules based ways (I call it, somewhat unimaginatively, "creative combat"). Like the occasions where I've dunked a baddy's head into water and drowned them, or poured acid on their weapon, crushed them with heavy objects, broken a leg to slow them down, caused wildlife to stampede them, bribed their allies to turn on them, etc. etc. And that's just combat, there's more cases then I can remember that I've figured out a way to pass or even sidestep a skill challenge through some shenanigan or another. Probably the best case of the "laugh at the DM's attempt to hinder the party" would be the time our party was making their way through a tomb when they came across a large chasm too wide to jump or throw a rope across, with the only way across seeming to be a narrow ledge we would need to scoot along with a skill check. One of the other party members just looked at the DM and said "We're all birds." And after pointing to a power he had that was something along the lines of Mass Wildshape or Polymorph or somesuch, he responded to the DM's irritated look by simply saying (ala Dogma) "I'm a f**king druid!" with a wide grin. Needless to say, the party was able to fly across the chasm with no problem whatsoever. My point is that the whole point of D&D being played on paper while face to face with people is that the way you play the game can be damn near whatever you want! If someone wants a game where you can only do what's been pre-programed to be available as an option, they can play a computer game. In a way, I've always felt it's part of the player's job to find ways in which to confound a DM, because the best DMs are those who learn to improvise! And I don't just mean "Oh, I suppose that horse can give you a +2 bonus..." I mean finding ways to truely reward a player's cleverness, then turn around and give that player an equally clever way to challenge and confound them.
#7 anticlimax Dec 29, 2010 21:48:03	What really bugs me though, is when I suggest using an actual Power my character possesses, innately or from a magic item.  Is there something wrong with an Eladrin wanting to use his Fey Step to get beyond an obstacle instead of rolling some check he might not be very good at? i just started DMing and i really wasn't prepared for this sort of thing with my players. i'm running a module and there's nothing in the module that tells you what to do if your players decide to totally circumvent a skill check they are suppose to make. i'm getting the idea that i need to be more open and improvise more and embrace the motto "whenever possible, say yes", but it's tough. totally sidestepping a problem without rolling is kinda anticlimatic. there's no suspense when it isn't put into the hands of the god with 20 faces. as a beginner DM there's still only so many challenges in my storytelling toolbox that'll fit any given situation within the adventure i've semi-prepared. if they start looking for solutions which guarentee autosuccesses their world becomes just that much more predictable and easy. i'm going to have to work on not squashing the creative problem solving though. tonight i'm going to let one of my player's characters use the cadaver of the deceased former character of another player as a shield because he's been bugging me about it and i can't come up with a good enough reason to stop him. i'm going to try to accomodate, but i've got reservations about setting these precedents.
#8 Metafictional Dec 30, 2010 1:04:44	I could think of a few reasons not to use a dead body as a shield- one, it's not like you can strap it to your arm very well, so you'd end up using both hands to use it as a piece of ordinary cover.  But to each their own. I do acknowledge that the published adventures aren't much help when players get creative, but the way I see it, a die roll is just the application of the player's abilities.  As would be the use of a power.  Potentially, the same also holds true for a cunning plan, but unless the plan is very basic (attack a trap with brute force), just ask yourself which skill would best apply to the execution of that plan. As an example, let's say that your skill challenge involves the party having to navigate a room that has invisible obstacles, like moving columns with spiky bits or something.  You have this list of skills you think would be applicable, and the party Wizard desides to use his Prestidigitation At-Will to paint the room red (I don't know if he could do this, but hey, it sounds good). It's a power, so it should just work, but hey, that's not a standard use, so why not just let him use Arcana for the skill challenge? I've seen, however, quite a number of headache-inducing things in the game.  My personal favorite is a Wizard utility power, Ladder of Force. This little gem creates an indestructible, up to 40' tall ladder that cannot be moved unless the Wizard allows it, and "does not need to be attached to anything" to stand.  Just think of the ways this thing can be (ab)used! Falling ceiling trap?  No problem, it's indestructible! Instant bridge?  Portable battering ram?  (Might not have enough mass, it never says how much the ladder weighs). Doesn't need to be attached to anything?  So can it float in the air?  It obviously can support weight without an issue...
#9 anticlimax Dec 30, 2010 3:10:41	I could think of a few reasons not to use a dead body as a shield- one, it's not like you can strap it to your arm very well, so you'd end up using both hands to use it as a piece of ordinary cover.  But to each their own. it's gamma world, so thematically it works. plus the PC has the giant origin, so even if the corpse now has straps or handholds or something, he could conceivably use it. i'm just fortunate that he didn't think to ask for the dead character's resist 5 physical (seismic origin) while using him as a shield. since gamma world is a little light on the details and rules anyway i suppose i shouldn't stress out about it too much, especially when they get rayguns and power armor like halloween candy. I've seen, however, quite a number of headache-inducing things in the game.  My personal favorite is a Wizard utility power, Ladder of Force. so what's the right thing for a DM to do in that situation? allow it because it doesn't explicity prohibit alternative uses? invent some limitation on the spot? or disallow it based on what the original intent presumably was?
#10 meegz Dec 30, 2010 3:36:53	seems like the DM in the OP is forgetting one of the most important rules of DM'ing. if you write it down or try to script it, its not going to happen that way.  ever. imo, good players find the loopholes like that, so you (the DM) have to think when it comes to a situation like that...'How could I as a player neutralize that without making a skill check (or at least an easy one). using powers to neutralize obstacles like those mentioned above give the same effect as making the skill check.  and you should be awarded appropriately.
#11 Metafictional Dec 30, 2010 5:48:32	While you can script out a skills challenge, I would personally make them much more spontaneous.  Present the problem, then ask the players what they'd like to do.  If they can use their powers, all the better.  I mean, look at Rituals.  Many Rituals exist that, by simply using them, can completely obviate many things which are normally skills challenges. But that's ok, since this is expending a resource.  Plus, you can only employ Rituals if you have the time to enact them. An important caveat to remember, however, is that D&D is a cooperative game.  There are challenges that the whole group must face.  Earlier in the thread I mentioned an Eladrin wanting to Fey Step past an obstacle.  If a player wants to do that, the DM should probably ask "Well that's great, but how does that help your companions?". If everyone else has a way to get around the obstacle, that's fine, but if someone takes the "every man for himself" approach, you need to point out how counter-productive that is.  You need your allies to face the challenges ahead.  That's a core premise of the game. Zipping past an obstacle and not helping the others isn't much help.  What if the others can't join you?  Now you're on your own! Now if the players suggest on their own (or you nudge them in this direction) to use their skills, voila, it's now a skills challenge.  You (as the DM) decide how many successes are needed to totally succeed, partially succeed, or just make some headway. A Skills Challenge I'm working on for a game involves the players in a town, after surviving a zombie attack.  They are asked to search the town to see if anyone else is under attack, who might need help.  If the players fall back on their Skills, such as Perception or Streetwise, I defined several levels of success. A shop owner is under siege by zombies.  If the players fail, they get there too late.  If they get one success, they find her unconscious, surrounded by zombies.  Two successes, they find her badly wounded.  Three, she's still holding off the zombies, and is only lightly wounded. Four, they get there while the zombies are still trying get past her crude attempts to fortify her position behind the counter (she's knocked over a few shelves to limit how many can get to her easily). Five lets the players get there while the zombies are still trying to break into the shop in the first place (I don't really think they'll get this many, but I'm being fair and allowing for the possibility). It's quite possible the players might just say "we want to go to location X".  In that case, if they pick right, it's equal to getting five successes.  Every wrong choice 'subtracts' a success until the worst-case scenario occurs.  And they might find another way to succeed- if so, all I need to decide is how long it will take. As for things like Force Ladder, if all the players are using it for is to climb up or down things, there's no issue.  A good rule of thumb would likely be that it's a ladder.  Anything you could use an ordinary ladder for, you can use it for. While it doesn't need to be braced or attached to anything, you can easily rule that it can only support weight if it's being used to fulfill the function of a ladder.  So if you try to suspend it in empty air, you could rule it can't support any weight. Or you could say that while the ladder can't be moved, falling isn't movement, thus gravity trumps magic ladders.  It may not need support, but it's got to be resting on the ground! If you want to use one as a load-bearing structure, since it's 'indestructible', I think it's fair to say that it also needs enough room to exist at it's current height.  If the ceiling lowers, you could justify the ladder simply getting shorter to adjust for the smaller rooom! It basically comes down to the "rule of cool".  If using an indestructible ladder to save the party sounds cool, go for it.  If the players are constantly trying to abuse an already very useful utility power, slap them down.  Because really, in D&D, DM's are always making players climb things.  But not all characters are good at climbing (such as Wizards).  The power allows the party to make some climbing checks a lot easier, and that's already pretty solid.
#12 mellored Dec 30, 2010 15:54:24	The only suggestion I have is for you to DM a few sessions. Hopefully after seeing someone say "yes" followed by "make an arcana check to get the right kind of acid orb to burn that metal trap" and other things he'll allow more flexibility in his game.
#13 ChimericPhase Dec 31, 2010 21:48:54	Skill challanges are good in idea(roll on skills, acomplish goal! gain xp and treasure!) but are poor in execution, specially the physical challenges. I apologize but I have to disagree with this. A better explaination would be "Skill challenges are good ideas, but many DMs execute them poorly: especially physical challenges." Any and all skill challenges can be written to include the use of player powers, plus the rule of Yes. If you're a DM, your player's powers don't dissapear when a skill challenge starts. Consider what rituals they have, what utility powers they have. If you're a player, besides the ever present "Talk to your DM, derp!" response - I suggest that when the DM says no, politely point out that X power is essentially just an ability check with modifiers, barely different than a skill check, and for Y and Z reasons perfectly applicable in this situation. Also, you can sweeten the offer by saying you'll not use that power for the rest of this skill challenge until you have rested after the challenge is done - just like any combat encounter or daily power. I have gotten DMs to agree to my requests to do this in game, so others might have similar success.
#14 montezuma Dec 31, 2010 23:01:52	I don't see anything wrong with using powers; I let players in my games do that whenever they like, as long as it isn't game-breaking. If it's creative and makes them enjoy the game more, there shouldn't be a great to-do over the rules. Granted, each DM has their own policies, so it isn't unreasonable to ask for skill checks as a mandatory thing. Edit: mellored's idea also sounds excellent!
#15 Metafictional Jan 01, 2011 7:01:54	As it happens, I just ran my first 4e adventure this morning, during a marathon gaming session at the local hobby shop.  Fun way to spend New Year's!  Amusingly enough, though I had the skill challenge all thought out, the party decided to head towards a specific location.  Thanks to some excellent Perception rolls, they were able to stumble across the encounter anyways, but it looks like I'll have to wait to try and enlighten my gaming group!
#16 mvincent Jan 04, 2011 17:44:51	DMG p.73: "When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it." DMG p.75: "Reward Clever Ideas Thinking players are engaged players. In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. Instead, let them make a roll using the skill but at a hard DC, or make the skill good for only one success. This encourages players to think about the challenge in more depth and engages more players by making more skills useful." As a guideline: the concensus among DM's is that the use of a suitable ritual (or daily power) should typically count as one automatic success, and in some rare cases it might even bypass the skill challenge entirely.
#17 slobo777a Jan 05, 2011 5:38:09	Skill challenges as presented in the DMG are just a formalisation of what D&D groups have been doing in an open-ended fashion under the more simulationist D&D versions. It's the attempt to turn them into a supposedly balanced, co-operative game (as opposed to RP experience) that isn't quite there really. The resources to manage, possible solutions and end points are far more complex than combat yet the game rules provide much less guidance for players and DMs. Open ended creativity will give a group far more back than forcing things into a "roll game", especially when after all the balancing to make it fair for all PCs, the odds of success are pretty much the same no matter what you do. Unlike the examples in pre-mades or the Dungeon articles, I find myself only sketching out skill challenges roughly, allowing pretty much any skill or resource use, and ad-libbing the end result. A few workable patterns repeat, such as dangerous journeys risking either time delay or a surge loss on failure. I would start by considering any request to use a power as still being a skill roll (as suggested above, Arcana for a precise safe teleport through a magically trapped area) with perhaps a bonus if it was particularly well-suited to the problem. Then you have two levels of "upgrade" available - one auto success, or win button. You also have matching levels increased difficulty, for particularly dumb suggestions ("Take out the sentries quietly? OK I use Thunderwave, but I try to make it quiet using my Stealth skill!") As a DM, I'm ambivalent about skill challenges, other than as a framework to achieve two things: 1) To make non-combat situations actually resolve in a reasonable time and number of rolls 2) To try and keep all characters equally relevent to the game out of combat.  . . . they sort of achieve that. IMO they also work loosely as "a game" in the role-playing sense. They very rarely work as an exciting game in the roll-playing sense for me and my group.
#18 rian_king Jan 05, 2011 8:01:39	I think your DM is using skill challenges like combat.  This is a problem because they are two seperate things. The first rule of skill challenges is do not tell you players there in a skill challenge and don't tell them what skills to use. I have done many skill challenges and my players don't know there in a skill challenge till there half way done
#19 slobo777a Jan 05, 2011 8:36:28	The first rule of skill challenges is do not tell you players there in a skill challenge and don't tell them what skills to use. I would say it's whatever works for your group. With my group I usually tell them, especially if we've just had several combat encounter, as it sets some important expectations. I find that otherwise, if the players don't spot the mechanic being used, I get spammed with requests by a single character to roll the same thing over and over (Diplomacy a particular bugbear for my group - they like to argue their case with NPCs).
#20 rian_king Jan 05, 2011 14:01:01	The first rule of skill challenges is do not tell you players there in a skill challenge and don't tell them what skills to use. I would say it's whatever works for your group. With my group I usually tell them, especially if we've just had several combat encounter, as it sets some important expectations. I find that otherwise, if the players don't spot the mechanic being used, I get spammed with requests by a single character to roll the same thing over and over (Diplomacy a particular bugbear for my group - they like to argue their case with NPCs). Then let them roll diplomecy over and over again.  The player should get it by the reaction of the NPC w  If not oh well.  Then they failed the skill challenge.
#21 Centauri Jan 05, 2011 14:05:33	First of all, I'd like to invite everyone who hasn't already to join community.wizards.com/skill_challenges_4... It's been quiet, but there's a lot of good content there, including examples of skill challenges, skill challenges in play, and ways of dealing with common problems people have with skill challenges. I even talk about spammed skills in there somewhere (hint: have the skill challenge react and go on the offense instead of sitting there and absorbing skill checks.) It has always bugged some DMs when a player pulls out an ability to get around an obstacle they've designed. Chasms have never been a good obstacle. Hopefully DMs who see their efforts stymied will look into other kinds of obstacles. Skill challenges are often better when their scope is broad in space and time, so they're not just crossing a chasm, they're crossing a landscape which includes chasms, rivers, cliffs, etc. As was said, skill challenges are just a formalization of what has always gone on. Now DMs have a gauge for the DCs to set and the XP to grant, as well as the number of failures to allow and successes to require. The lack of these has long been a problem. Skill challenges could have been much better explained and demonstrated. That's what we're trying to do that the Skill Challenge group. Please check it out and post further questions there.
#22 slobo777a Jan 05, 2011 15:00:07	The first rule of skill challenges is do not tell you players there in a skill challenge and don't tell them what skills to use. I would say it's whatever works for your group. With my group I usually tell them, especially if we've just had several combat encounter, as it sets some important expectations. I find that otherwise, if the players don't spot the mechanic being used, I get spammed with requests by a single character to roll the same thing over and over (Diplomacy a particular bugbear for my group - they like to argue their case with NPCs). Then let them roll diplomecy over and over again.  The player should get it by the reaction of the NPC w  If not oh well.  Then they failed the skill challenge. I could do that, but have in the past found that kind of rut boring for all involved, and sometimes frustrating for the diploming player, as they see their only course of action is to argue more. Just a slight push into "it's going to work like this (skill challenge)" just gets the ball rolling. I could equally say "You feel that your arguments are falling on deaf ears, perhaps it's time to try something else?" and not have to reveal the mechanic I am using, which meets your first rule. But I still say it's whatever works for the group . . .
#23 Dane_McArdy Jan 05, 2011 15:42:06	This keeps coming up, and I'm starting to develop a twitch in my right eye when it happens.  The DM presents you with a problem, you say "aha, well, I'll do this!", and the response is "Haha, very cute.  Ok so this is a Skill Challenge..." For example, we were in an abandoned temple filled with deadly traps.  We encountered a spinning metal blade that blocked our passage, and looked likely to cut whoever tried to get past it to ribbons.  Considering that the Sorcerer has Acid Orb, I told him to shoot at it. Now granted, sure, technically Acid Orb can only target creatures, but the DM didn't even go there.  He immediately began to tell us what rolls we'd need to make to avoid or disable the trap! Another time, we were presented with a wide chasm, and told we'd need to make Athletics or Acrobatics checks to get across.  I was playing my Storm Sorcerer at the time, and I was like "or, you know, I could just use Sorcerous Sirocco to fly me and the Cleric across". Heck, I still remember a Skills Challenge that inolved us getting to a place in time to prevent an attack by the bad guys, and I suggested using my Bridle of Conjuration and using my horse to get there faster.  I think I got a +2 bonus to my Athletics roll (I still failed). I've been gaming for a long time, and while I have no problem with characters using their skills to overcome challenges, Skill Challenges really feel forced to me, like I'm supposed to disable my problem-solving skills and leave everything up to a die roll. I suppose I might be looking at this backwards, and that a successful die roll would allow me to implement the solution I thought of, as my character may not have the same problem-solving skills I possess...but then again, I don't possess the 18 Intelligence of my Wizard! What really bugs me though, is when I suggest using an actual Power my character possesses, innately or from a magic item.  Is there something wrong with an Eladrin wanting to use his Fey Step to get beyond an obstacle instead of rolling some check he might not be very good at? To me it sounds like your DM doesn't take into account everyone's powers and abilities and gear. Bad DMing in my view.
#24 Metafictional Jan 09, 2011 7:42:13	I don't really blame my DM's though- often they're running from published material that simply presents a skills challenge, says "these are the key skills", and don't present much in the way of troubleshooting when the players get creative. I mean, SC's are nothing new to me- in previous editions, I would see bonus xp handed out for dealing with NPC's in 'social encounters', or getting xp for getting around traps.  3.x even allowed for the possibility of earning xp for avoiding a combat encounter (although I've met many players and DM's who felt that if you don't kill it, you shouldn't get rewarded for it- not taking damage is it's own reward). Skill Challenges are simply a formalized mechanic for this sort of thing.  The problem is, not everything that is presented as a Skills Challenge really needs to be- take encountering a trap. The group spots the trap, someone trained in Thievery disarms it, and done.  Sure, there are complex traps that require the whole party to get in on the action (there's a few traps of this nature in the National Treasure movies), but those should be the exception, I think. The thing I find counter-intuitive is that a Skills Challenge asks for the whole party to get involved when it's really a task best left to a specialist.  I mean, consider this group: Dwarven Warden Half-Orc Ranger Halfling Sorcerer Genasi Wizard Tiefling Bard The DM presents the characters with a social encounter.  The Bard is likely the party face, but the Sorcerer is likely no slouch either.  Wizards have Diplomacy on their list, but the Genasi is probably pumping Strength to use Elemental Empowerment, so they won't be as good, even if it is trained. The Warden and the Ranger likely can only hinder negotiations, and asking them to roll just makes the rest of the party's job harder- that's not really what I'd call using teamwork to overcome a challenge. Or say the DM presents the party with an Indiana Jones-style 'outrun the boulder' challenge.  Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Dungeoneering, Perception, and Thievery seem to be the better Skills to use. This is a little better, since the Genasi might have taken Dungeoneering, but most likely, some characters will have several useful skills they can use, with good bonuses, and some will have to put all their faith in a single skill that they still might not be so great at using.
#25 Metafictional Jan 09, 2011 7:52:41	First of all, I'd like to invite everyone who hasn't already to join community.wizards.com/skill_challenges_4... It's been quiet, but there's a lot of good content there, including examples of skill challenges, skill challenges in play, and ways of dealing with common problems people have with skill challenges. I even talk about spammed skills in there somewhere (hint: have the skill challenge react and go on the offense instead of sitting there and absorbing skill checks.) It has always bugged some DMs when a player pulls out an ability to get around an obstacle they've designed. Chasms have never been a good obstacle. Hopefully DMs who see their efforts stymied will look into other kinds of obstacles. Skill challenges are often better when their scope is broad in space and time, so they're not just crossing a chasm, they're crossing a landscape which includes chasms, rivers, cliffs, etc. As was said, skill challenges are just a formalization of what has always gone on. Now DMs have a gauge for the DCs to set and the XP to grant, as well as the number of failures to allow and successes to require. The lack of these has long been a problem. Skill challenges could have been much better explained and demonstrated. That's what we're trying to do that the Skill Challenge group. Please check it out and post further questions there. I clicked on the link provided in your post, but all I got was an error message saying that the page doesn't exist?
#26 Centauri Jan 11, 2011 11:53:40	I clicked on the link provided in your post, but all I got was an error message saying that the page doesn't exist? Weird. Try this one: community.wizards.com/skill_challenges_4...
#27 Metafictional Jan 12, 2011 3:42:13	That worked, thank you.