Basically, our current DM has 'discovered' 4E, from 3.5E. And he likes it so much, he's decided that to hell with the party, he's going to shift the campaign over to 4E whether we like it or not.
Well, okay, he's made platitudes of that not being the case, but frankly based on his personality and previous actions, I don't well believe him. Now, I don't want this to turn into an edition war- I've read the 4E books. It's a good system. It's a fun system. But... it's just not the system I'm looking for. I'd be all for running a secondary campaign (something we're basically doing now anyways, but in 3.5E) in 4E, but for our main, for these characters we've managed since level one to (currently) level 9, I don't think they can survive the shift. We've got multiclass characters here and there, we've got a monk, we've got real PrCing happening. And... I don't know, but I don't find I enjoy the feel of 4E.
Oh, sure, it's a seductive game. It's so easy to put on. Just sit down, and your character's nearly made whole cloth, just come up with some fluff and there you are. It's enticing, with it's rebalanced class system, and defining class type by an external role system. It's got a lot of nice improvements- general system fixes. And when I was reading through it, the more I read, the more I was sure I'd absolutely love a game in 4E.
And I began to be afraid that I'd lose interest in 3.5E. I began worrying that I might not be dragged kicking and screaming into the future, but would happily abandon my existing character and roll up a new one. See, that really scared me, because I've invested a lot of time and money into 3.5E recently, and seeing all that investment just go bottoms up might very well hurt me in a way no game has hurt since RIFTS.
But today, someone asked me to look up a Dragon in the 3.5E draconomicon. And I fell in love with the system all over again. I don't have to be scared of 4E- it's a nice, sound, and fun system. But it's not the system for me. I fell in love with 3.0E when it came out, and that's been a romance through the years- on and off sure, but there's just... something about that core game.
Now, I know my DM. He'll cite powergaming, or rules lawyering, or some other crap, as being the reason why I'm in love with 3.5E. I'll admit- I do optimize, but it's not the same for him. He's a storyteller. I'm a thinker, and while I love coming up with arching plots, and longwinded historicological monologues, and character backgrounds, and pure, undiluted fantasy... he doesn't. He's very on the spot. I mean, planning, sure, but none of our plans survive first contact with him- I won't say he's the enemy, but sometimes it can well seem like it.
The dynamics of our relationship are complicated, to be sure. He's not just our DM, he's the proprietor of a business, the place where we game. We actually pay a venue fee to meet up with him there and run the campaigns- and I've been fine with that.
But being dragged, kicking and screaming into the future is something I'm not fine with. For all its bad math and unbalanced characters, 3.5E is something I truly understand. I can sit down and draw up a class in five minutes. I can dream about the interactions of the fluff and the mechanics- of fantasies gone by, and of how to balance or revive the game. I might not have looked it at first glance, but I'm all for homebrewing, so long as the system remains intact.
Because honestly, IMO, it's not the system that's flawed. It's how people were using the system. With modern technology- shown best in the very game we've been discussing, 4E, those problems go away, at least to some extent. The designers have every book, every printed article at their fingertips. They've probably got a massive index that orders every possible thing in every possible way, so it's easy to just call up all references to a class when designing new content.
3.5E is easy, once you grasp the design. 4E is easy too- but too easy. I'm sure it's endemic of not playing it exclusively, or not being a slavering fan, but I get a feeling of sameness from it. Everything's the same. Everything's different from what I've used to, but too too similar. I know that doesn't make sense, what I've said, but it's how I feel.
I'm a mechanics down sort of guy. But I know. I can look from the fluff down and see how 4E works. And it works pretty damn well. That everyone is the same, only different by what powers they wield under what conditions- and those conditions are so too similar. I'm probably being small, or petty, but I like the fundamental differences that sprang up in 3.5E- or that I saw in my mind's eye of the game. Rangers were different from Monks who were different from Wizards. Balancing issues aside, it was very much possible to look at someone and be amazed- he has the ability to do things I can't do, but if I focus and learn, I can do those too.
And I know. I know that 4E you can do it too. Maybe a bit different, maybe better mathematically, but to me it's not the same overall. I guess what I'm saying, is that in 3.5E, you could have all sorts of fluff tied in to your character. Your imagination could do as it wanted. A man is different, not by what stylistically awesome special techniques he can produce, but by his training and skill. As someone who's always been a fan of martial characters, I get the feel from 4E that everyone's just a wizard under a different name, with a different spell list. Sure, it's more fluid- 4E incorporates all sorts of things in its spellpowers that were exclusive class features in 3.5E. It feels more, well... I'll use an analogy.
3.5E is like chess. Crazy, random, tactically awesome chess. Chess where characters can change what pieces they represent, or even represent no piece at all. It feels like a game of grand old strategy, or running down a street with a firearm. It's a mix of classic RPG and FPS. If your view is broad, you can be broad- if your view is narrow, you can be narrow.
4E is like dancing. It's fluid, and follows a simple- though at times complicated rhythm. It's got elements of those that came before, but they're all very fluid. Those chess pieces are pawns no more, but spinning whirling dervishes of whatever power they follow. Broad or narrow, it doesn't matter since everyone has the same focus. Everyone shares a common bond, and as that dance goes on, it goes on for everyone. There's no 'out' there's not even an escape. You can't step away from that dance, and really, you don't even want to. Why would you? It's magnificent.
And yet, all these centuries since it was first played- all this time gone by, people still play chess. Because for all the things that change, there are things that stay much the same. There are people that want that sort of movement, that sort of play. You can try it with 4E, but it's rigid and awkward, going against the intended style of design. It doesn't feel right- moreover, it feels, somehow, wrong. Like I've done a bad thing- like I've kept a bird who longs for freedom in its cage.
I can't begrudge 4E that freedom- god knows it's worked for it. God knows that I've been there, where its been. 4E was always meant to fly, and I can't help but feel some magnificent joy watching it do as it was intended to do.
But that won't stop me from turning away. From leaving one step across the line. I don't care about the vaunted 'future'. The 'future' is just a name- just a squandered tag of existence, and one that I no longer need fear, but no longer need to adhere to. I won't be dragged kicking and screaming into the future, because I won't be dragged period. I've had my squabbles with my DM, and his limbo-esq way of running the game. I've had my troubles with his indescribable hate against 'new' 3.5 material, but this jovial love that's sprung up for the 'future's system. He's played 4E for a while off to the side, and being the wonderful seductive system it is, it's swayed his stone heart so thoroughly you could never have gathered that they'd only just met.
He's a man of the Future, now- the past is blown to dust and echoes, to chaos and sadness. That past is behind him, and I don't think he'll return for anything. Not all the keys in the kingdom. And it saddens me- saddens me to see something so great, and so profound an experience just swept aside. To see something I've known for so long of my life just cast away into the dark. I know that this feeling is endemic of my experience with life- hell, I never throw things away. Even if I don't read them anymore, those books, those materiels of arcane design are a record. They're the hopes and dreams and tears of a thousand people who've come before, and I, strange, weird, and weak Kerrus, I can't bear to see them go. They remind me of home, the home in my heart away from all the ravages of life.
I'm all for the future. I've seen it, breathed it. But the past made us who we are, and I cannot, I will not abandon it. And I'm so very afraid that this will tear our gaming group apart. Already one of our members has given the word. He's going to leave when we shift over. He's not going to come back, because he can't be who he wants to be in the new world- in that selfsame future as I've professed to understanding.
There are more, and when I think about it, I don't want to lose any of them either. We've been together for a long time, and through thick and thin. We've come together in comaradie and friendship, in ways beyond that of mere hangers out. We're friends, but friends by a common bond of gamesmanship.
And now that bond is breaking, and I just don't know what to do. I know what I want, and I know what my DM's said- but I can't believe him, and I don't have any high hopes of us surviving this schism.
He's going to the future- to that land beyond this one of mine. And were it any other day- any other campaign, I'd be right there with him. But not this one. Not this day. I might stand alone or united, but as a player I cannot condone this change. I won't. And even as I think about it, think about the compromises I'd make, or the work I'd put in to saving this friendship, this common bond, I come to realize that I'm the centerpiece.
The center cannot hold, they say. But they're wrong. I'll hold. Seductive future or not, I'll not give way. If I did, the last bastion would go- I'm that bastion, that steadfast mantle of glory. If I went, the entire thing would go, and oh but wouldn't that be easy.
But the easy path is not often the right path, and I don't think I could really forgive myself if I just set things down, set them aside, brushed off my hands and said "I'm done with you."
4E is a wonderful system, I've said that. All the semantics, all the troubles and hopes and dreams and nightmares that've been had, by all of us, those aside, it's still a wonderful system.
But it's not my system. I don't think it'll ever be my system. I guess that's just the roulette- the card that life deals out to us.
The future is glorious, but what- oh what are we leaving behind? What part of ourselves, what part of the dreams and aspirations of a thousand worlds all sharing a common bond.
4E is a game. So too is 3.5E. But I've become involved- I always find myself involved. And it's no mere game anymore. It's a facet of existence, of something great and majestic. It's something spiritual and divine, and arcane and esoteric all in one great ball of fun.
I'm not one of those guys who invests a life into the game, but that doesn't mean I can't have faith, can't hold a belief.
Whatever happens, I know I'll still be here. And I suppose that's good enough for me.
You won't lose your old characters, they'll always be on the shelf for you to look at and look back on. Maybe you guys will even be able to pick up and play again.
And from a mechanical point of view, this "sameness" you see in 4th Edition -- which is very true, many things are the same -- is not a new thing. There were always charts for character classes, and every character followed a basic template as they leveled. Fighters and Wizards got class features at every level, and bonuses to their saves and base attack bonuses. 4th Edition is obviously a bit more up front about how similar everything is, but that does not change the uniquness to be found in characters.
The biggest problem with 4th Edition is also, in many ways, it's greatest reason for success; it doesn't try to mess with your roleplaying, and doesn't touch it. But when people play it, they often forget that roleplaying is still roleplaying, and that characters are characters by virtue of how they do things. People see the at-wills, the encounters, the dailies, and they forget that they aren't limited to those just because that's what is on their sheet. People simply let D&D fade because they don't have the same system they used to.
There are a lot of valid reasons not to change over to 4th Edition. You may not have the money to buy the books, have a D&D Insider subscription, or however else you'd get access to the rules. You may not have the time anymore. Or your players reject the rules system for their own reasons, good or bad. Your is one of the less-than-reasonable excuses. You don't want to change over because you don't want to lose your characters. But y'know, they're not lost. You won't lose anything as long as your character was not built on the mechanics of 3.5 solely.
There's a reason that it's still called D&D. It's the same game at its innermost pit. People forget, but it's true. And it's not because of the Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard classes. Or the Holy Avenger. Or the Bag of Holding. It's a bit more than that.
Your going to have to deal with this from a social angle. If you can't keep your 3rd ED game running maybe you could ask him to shelve it and go back to it. Or maybe you'll just have to bow out. But the problem is between you, him, and the rest of your fellow players in the end.
The only serious gaming suggestion I can give you is don't play 4th ED if you can't stop thinking of how you would have done it in 3rd. No edition of D&D stands up well to the spotlight, and if you don't want the system to work for you it won't.
I know that that 'my characters' won't cease to exist in a magical puff of multihued illogic. I deal with that sort of thing all the time, as a tremendous sciencefiction and fantasy fan- that's not the issue. The issue is that I've invested a lot of time and effort into these specific characters, and I want to continue playing them.
That's why I, as a player, am playing D&D. I'm not going to be breaking any friendships, but at the same time, things aren't going to be the same. Most of us only see eachother for D&D, and it infuriates me that it should all fall down to me. That I should be the bad guy, who wont just throw all that developement and effort to the wind, say 'screw this' and roll up an invoker.
Oh. Whoooooh. My sheet will still exist. We both know that that's not at all the same. That's like saying you can always go look at bikes in a bike store after you've sold your bike and aren't able to ride it anymore. Looking != playing, and I'm rather annoyed at the implication.
Furthermore, the idea that I should have... no, should be required by some arcane law to put away my old books and get the new ones is just... mindboggling. I've NOTHING substantial against 4E. If it were a new campaign starting, if it were anything else, none of this would have been an issue. But it's not anything else. It's the DM saying, 'I'm sorry, but you can't play your character anymore'. It's taking all this work and fluff and effort, and retconning it out of existence.
"Oh that guy? He never existed."
We've, of course, other tensions. One of the other guys who was against switching to 4E for this, specific, single campaign has told us he's quitting- one of 4E supporters decided to tell him that the party would be better off without him. While that's not anything I can control, and is really bad form from a player, the whole doubt of continuing to play was sparked by this impending change. That player's character wouldn't exist in 4E either. And while he too, was fine with doing 4E for anything else, he really had a lot of investment in his character and didn't want to change.
But I guess that choice has been made now. He's leaving, and as much as I try to convince him, I don't think I can do it. Things have been moving this way anyways.
I said in the Op, that I don't feel I can trust the DM. And it's true- at least within the context of the game. Outside the game, the DM's a fun, reliable guy. But with the context of the game, particularly the interplay between him and I, we don't have the best relationship, even though I've tried all I can try.
Simply put, at the start of our campaign, our DM wanted a 1E archetypical style game, using 3.5E. Core rulebooks, core classes, no multiclassing, no prestige classes. And he was sitting on people for 'overpowered' feat choices from the core rules.
I may well have instigated this whole mess when I tried to think outside the box- but I damned well can't help it. It's what I do. At first it was simple, I'd bring in a new supplement and ask him to consider it. And he'd tell me no, and I'd attempt to find out why.
Look. Everything that I've learned about D&D has pointed towards it being a joint effort, between players and the DM- not little marionettes dancing in a grand design. But when I approached out DM about adding any sort of new material, or balancing things that needed balancing, or any of a thousand little things that I, as a player, thought would really help our party out, I was either ignored until I dropped the issue, or told that he didn't want 'overpowered supplemental material' or that I was a horrid powergamer.
And our relationship has built on that- whenever anything related to the game comes up outside of the game, that associated feeling weighs on me. I can't just talk about the game with him. Everything has to be a debate. And when he promises to do something, or 'suggests' a 'compromise' it never happens. Either it gets put off for month after month, or we get told that he's decided to compromise on some area, are told with the fiat of god that this is, in fact, a compromise, when in reality it's just his original position with a thin, still wet, coat of paint.
So no, when talking about the game outside of the game, I don't trust that what he says is actually what he intends to do. I've been proven wrong fairly consistently about that.
But he's not a bad guy- he's very good at roleplaying and running campaigns and making it fun for everyone. But in the situation we're in, there are concerns that the transition to 4E is going to happen even if it rips the party apart. Even as it is ripping the party apart.
No compromizes, no consideration, just *BAMF* you can't play these characters anymore.
So now that we've established all that some members of the party will lose if we switch, I'm going to wash my hands and consider how best to murder my character. If he's going to die, it might as well be in a time and place of my choosing.
EDIT: Where the hell is all this idea that I hate 4E coming from. I, personally, think it's an utterly fantastic system. But it will NOT work for our existing campaign. Between extensive homebrewing and things that NO LONGER EXIST, our materiel will not transition to 4E without several people having to roll up new characters. That's the problem.
EDIT2: He's running two 3.5 campaigns with us right now, on alternating weeks. We've offered to make that second game 4E and do some sort of compromise, but apparently that's not good enough. Am I annoyed? You could say that.
Skills =/= Character.
It is the roleplay of the character and their development as a character that define them, not their class or skills. I do not care for anyone who says otherwise.
without rebuilding on a level to make him into an entirely different character- requiring extensive retconning, no, I cannot convert him to 4th. The fluff is easy- he'll still have the same personality yadda yadda whatever, but he will be fundamentally unable to do most of the stuff he could do in 3.5E.
And since that stuff is a core part of his character, uh... yeah. So uh... get out of my thread if you have nothing to contribute.
I never said '3.5 characters cannot be converted to 4E'- that's all you. I said 'this specific 3.5 character cannot be converted to 4E without extensive changes on a level requiring extensive retcons such to make him an entirely different character that looks the same and acts the same, but lacks all the fundamental meat that makes him who he was.
uh, so I have a monk who can run on walls and throw fireballs from his ass. he can't do that in 4E- at least not yet. Oh yeah, and his fists are enchanted with a bunch of magical properties and other crap.
Actually....you could do this easily now. Use the monk playtest article and multiclass into wizard.
uh, so I have a monk who can run on walls and throw fireballs from his ass. he can't do that in 4E- at least not yet. Oh yeah, and his fists are enchanted with a bunch of magical properties and other crap.
without rebuilding on a level to make him into an entirely different character- requiring extensive retconning, no, I cannot convert him to 4th. The fluff is easy- he'll still have the same personality yadda yadda whatever, but he will be fundamentally unable to do most of the stuff he could do in 3.5E
I fail to see the issue with this. You complain that you will lose characters, and yet I see only losing the crunch, not the fluff. Sure, they will be very mechanically different, but it would require surprisingly little reworking to convert a character to a different class makeup.
Believe me. I've done it.
Edit: And Guyver unintentionally backs my point up.
You've got a personal problem that you can only solve by talking to the DM/other players.
You state that you can't do this for various reasons.
So you've simply got a choice..... Play 4e or don't play 4e.
Question: You go on about how you don't want to switch to 4e because that'll end your favorite character. But what would you do if the DM had simply said "Hey, I'm tired of DMing. So as of ___ this campaigns finished/on hiatus."?
You could also look at the situation as temporary. Afterall, maybe you'll play 4e for awhile & decide to switch back.... Plenty of others have done so.
Or maybe the campaign your upset about leaving can go on hiatus until your second 3.5 game concludes.
Or maybe it's time for one of you players to step up & DM the 3.5 campaign.
Otherwise, yeah, I've ranted and will probably wait until more details arise.
But even so, I think that given that I'm paying for this service, that maybe I should have some say. Alas.
EDIT: If anyone has some way I can get the playtest version of the 4E monk without paying large sums of money (or sums of money at all) I'd be much obliged.
And yes, to the naysayers out there - there are characters you can't convert. Maybe if your concept was extremely vague - "I'm a Wizard", or entirely disconnected from your class and abilties - "I'm a travelling woodcarver", then sure, it converts easily. But often the mechanics do interact with the character's style and personality, and there just isn't a good way to convert that. And really, if any of us believed that mechanics are irrelevant, why would we be playing a mechanically-heavy system?
For those who need an example, here's a simple concept that you can't currently, and probably won't ever be able to use in 4E - the pacifist. The support caster who strengthens the rest of the party, the mage who tangles up enemies in illusory mazes and mind-games but never actually harms them - these just don't work.
While that may be the most blatant example, there are a lot of characters who either can't be converted well, or even can't be converted recognizably. Which is not even about 4E - direct conversion isn't usually possible between systems, and while some people may enjoy playing a similar character, others may just be frustrated by the discrepancies.
I would also suggest that you don't trow out your 3.5, as you can play both (though as a DM 4 is MUCH better). Like you analogy, chess is still played, but many other games are played now too.
All that being said, I do believe that your DM could compromise and play out a few more sessions of 3.5 to conclude the plotline, bring some closure to your characters, etc. It sounds like he's a pretty stubborn person, and that it's leading to some strife at your table. It might be worth approaching him at the table with the proposition of running 3.5 for X more sessions, so you can at least savor your character one last time/wrap up that one loose plot thread/go out in a blaze of glory, etc. If he doesn't respond to that, well, at least you now have a real problem that can be discussed and addressed.
Other than that, maybe you'd care to share exactly what powers you feel might not make the crossover? There are some pretty bright people on these forums, I'm sure we could come up with something that would work.
Even if it's the 'same' campaign, and some of the characters can transfer over, I think I'm too emotionally embroiled in my character plots, and with the group interplay. Trying to convert custom-monk-zilla over would be a hassle in a lot of respects, at least until the psychic power book or PHBIII comes out. In the mean time, I think I'd like to diversify a bit- niche ranger will do that, and the invoker looks pretty fun.
I'll see about broaching continuing on in 3.5 to complete the current campaign (we're in the middle of a dungeon, fi) then switching over all at once to the DM- hopefully that'll work, and my monk can walk off into the sunset or something, and maybe come back when the relevant material has been released for general consumption and I can get a good idea of what it is I can do.
Until then, I'd like to thank the contributors to this thread- insights on both sides have helped me make this decision, and I probably just would have stewed in a big commiseration spiral without it.