I am starting in a long D%D 3.5 campaign in a few weeks, but I cannot decide on what kind of character I want to play. I have done a lot of roleplaying, but have not really played D&D since AD&D 2nd edition.
My DM has decided to allow Players Handbook, Players Handboook 2, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane and Complete Adventures for character creation (no oriental classes allowed – the DM is allergic to ninjas :D ).
Well, for a newbie like me the possibilities are a bit overwhelming. Perhaps you guys have some suggestions? I first and foremost want a character which is fun to play, but, of course, a bit of powerplaying is fun ;)
The campaign will run with 5 players, starting at lvl 1 and going to lvl 20. The setting is a classic fantasy world, akin to Forgotten Realms. We start out in a mining village with a lot of ruins in the nearby hills. I expect a bit of dungeon crawling.
I have thought of 3 different characters:
1) The tank. This guy is made of armour and hitpoints. I thought perhaps knight, and later perhaps a prestige class.
2) The mad spellcaster. Someone who have had far too much contact with mercury. I high lvl arcane spellcaster is always fun, but at first glance the spellcasting classes seem a bit dull in D&D 3.5. Someone please correct me.
3) A rogue / ranger type of guy. The scout seems promising. Perhaps he can be combined with a ranger or barbarian.
Alternately, a rogue with lots of tumbling and weapon finesse going backstab crazy sounds fun. Somersaulting over the heads of the bad guys in order to backstab them has a certain appeal.
I have not decided on race or gender.
So, there it is. Suggest some great and fun builds for me. Remember, this is 3.5 rules.
Well, for a newbie like me the possibilities are a bit overwhelming. Perhaps you guys have some suggestions? I first and foremost want a character which is fun to play, but, of course, a bit of powerplaying is fun
3.5 optimization in a nut shell. On the low end you have the fighter. On the opposite, ZOMBWTFBBQ, you have the CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid -zilla) and God (the Wizard). Everyone else falls in between, with the advantage typically learning toward those classes with full casting. There are those who disagree with this, but this is the generally accepted view. That's not to say that you can't make a perfectly kick-ass fighter, but it is hard to keep a fighter on par compared to the big three played by an moderately experienced player using the big three unless you know what you're doing.
I have thought of 3 different characters:
1) The tank. This guy is made of armour and hitpoints. I thought perhaps knight, and later perhaps a prestige class.
2) The mad spellcaster. Someone who have had far too much contact with mercury. I high lvl arcane spellcaster is always fun, but at first glance the spellcasting classes seem a bit dull in D&D 3.5. Someone please correct me.
3) A rogue / ranger type of guy. The scout seems promising. Perhaps he can be combined with a ranger or barbarian.
Alternately, a rogue with lots of tumbling and weapon finesse going backstab crazy sounds fun. Somersaulting over the heads of the bad guys in order to backstab them has a certain appeal.
Druid. Done.
No, really. Let's go by point-by-point.
1) Druids have taking covered. Between a d8 hitdie, combat buffs and healing, natural ac from wildshape, and decent armor proficiencies make for an excellent good tank. Oh, and druids come with a with their own tank in the form of an animal companion. The only thing better for tanking than a bear is two bears...that can summon more bears.
2) Let's see. 9th level spells? Check. Embodiment of the cold, cruel reality that is nature? Check. All you need is the Natural Spell feat (in the PH) so you can cast while wildshaped and you're you're good to go.
A common misconception is that druids are hippies by nature. Hippies don't wield scimitars.
3) All the standard stealthing/scouting skills (Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Survival) are accounted for. You have access to spells to further improve your stealth. Wildshape is great for stealth. Not only does get grant you an excellent disguise, but it grants you access to all manner of movement forms, including flight and underwater travel. It only gets better at 11th level when you can wildshape into tiny forms, excellent for getting size bonuses to hide checks, gaining cover easily, and fitting into small holes and crevices.
Suggest some great and fun builds for me.
Since this sounds like your first foray into 3.5, and because playing a caster, let alone a druid, can be complicated enough as it is, I'll keep my suggested build simple.
Stats: Put your highest stat in Wis.
Feats: Take the Natural Spell feat. Everything else is window dressing. Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and metamagic feats are all good choices
Spells: Blasty spells are flashy, but don't neglect your other spells. Spells that help you shape the battlefield in your favor (like Obscuring Mist) and debuff your enemies (like Poison) can be more effective than blasting spells with some planning.
A bit of clarificaiton:
I have played a bit of D&D 3.5 before as a bard. I played a lot of AD&D, so I am not a spellcasting newbie.
Druid sounds like a cool suggestion, but there is a small catch. The last campaing I played with these guys was as a druid. This guy was probably my best character ever. Bolim and his geckos still pop up in everyday conversation from time to time, and it has not been a real friday night if somebody has not tried imitating Bolim using his pet bee as an impromptu lockpick. ¨
However, I think I would rather play something different. Repeating a success like this would be a bit bland, I am afraid.
Hey, you just gave me an idea. This character will be the son or daughter of Bolim. The mother mysteriously got pregnant while picnicing, and all she has of the father is a name and some sort of token, which she has passed on to her child.
The background story is shaping up
Thanks for a very good and inspiring reply.
Glad you found it useful.
I have played a bit of D&D 3.5 before as a bard. I played a lot of AD&D, so I am not a spellcasting newbie.
Great. That will make things easier for other posters as well.
The last campaing I played with these guys was as a druid. This guy was probably my best character ever. Bolim and his geckos still pop up in everyday conversation from time to time, and it has not been a real friday night if somebody has not tried imitating Bolim using his pet bee as an impromptu lockpick.
Lock-picking with a bee? Part of me wants to praise such creativity while the other part wants to ask how the heck would that even work? Seriously, was it a dire bee at least? Wouldn't the stinger break easily?
However, I think I would rather play something different. Repeating a success like this would be a bit bland, I am afraid.
There are many ways to play up the druid angle. The only roleplaying prerequisites are A) you venerate nature, and B) you're neutral on at least one axis. Point B is probably self-explanatory, but point A gives a surprising amount of wiggle room. For example, the Eberron setting has five main druid sects, and all of them worship nature in different ways. The Wardens of the Wood are your traditional, protect nature and teach others how to be one with nature kinda druids. The Ashbound protect nature purity from all that they deem artificial and unnatural, especially arcane magic and influences, and are not above using violence to purge such influences. The Gatekeepers maintain the seals that protect the world from extraplanar evils. The Greensingers embody the chaotic nature of fey. And my favorite in concept, the Children of Winter venerate nature by embracing disease, pestilence, and death, recongnizing them as part of the natural cycle, and anticipate the coming of a great cleansing from which the world will start anew.
But I'm just giving examples of how to play a druid differently. If you'd rather try something different, go for it.
I high lvl arcane spellcaster is always fun, but at first glance the spellcasting classes seem a bit dull in D&D 3.5.
I missed this during my first reading. I'm not at all familiar with D&D versions prior to 3e, so when you say 3e spellcasting classes seem dull, how so?
I have never played 3e or even read the books. But I do own 2e and 4e books.
In 2e and 1e there were a crap load of Role Playing spells, and a moderate amount of bang-bang spells. In 4e all spells are bang-bang with like 28 rituals. Like I said I never 3e'd so...
At Oynaz
I love spell-slingers, but like I said I know not of 3e.
You can have bear soldiers....
As to Idea number 2, try a psion, specifically a telepath...nothing is quite as good as the threat"you will spend the rest of your life believing that you are a 4 year old girl" than actually being able to carry it out.
I also think the psionics is easier than the spell system, and pretty good as long as you don't forget the limits.
You can also kill a yak at 200 yards with mind bullets. So that definitely plays up the addled caster.
But if you can handle being a bit les outright powerful, you can play a kineticist and just blow stuff up.
Ah yes, the druid... remember that animal companion is the benefit of a spell (animal friendship), the class feature only gives added bonuses.
You can have bear soldiers....
You seem to be thinking of a different 3.5 than the rest of us.
- Warmage/Rainbow Servant. Pays off once you hit Rainbow Servant's last level. Its class feature gives a Warmage every Cleric Spell as part of his casting list. 'Nuff said.
- Fighter with a fun, unique weapon. Always fun. Greathammers (from the Monster Manual IV, Greathorn Minotaurs section) are excellent for such. But I've made a fighter whom operated on a repeating crossbow. If you'd like to be optimally optimal, get a Great Bow and get Manyshot + Rapid Shot. You'll be doing uber damage in no time.
- Monk. No more word required.
- Anything, but starting with a first level of Druid and having taken the shapeshifting varient in the PH II. Pick Raptor as your Predator form. You're now Dinobot.
That's all I've got.
On the other hand, you could play a Cleric as a wandering shaman / exorcist in the vein of Miroku. :D
I've also had this mad idea recently of playing a Paladin with an attitude (and surrealness) of the Tick...
A disease wielding Dinobot? Sounds like tons of fun.
I grabbed the favoured soul idea for another forthcoming campaign. We needed a healer. The healer is now an enforcer of Boccob, complete with ancestral claymore and a very bad attitude. Anyone who does not pay sufficiently to the church's coffins will soon get to know the infamous Club of Boccob!
I owe an explanation of the pet bee as a lockpick story, I think:
Our rogue and I had been bickering in game for a time. My character meant that rogues were useless, and that anyone could pick a lock, while transforming into an oversized chicken took real skill. We needed to go through a locked door. The rogue invited me to pick it, and of course I accepted the challenge.
Needless to say, I failed my skill check abysmally (It was AD&D, and I do not recall the game mechanics involved). I mumbled something about manual labour being beneath me, and ordered my pet bee (which I kept in a very thin leash) to pick it for me. My DM claimed that the bee had no idea of the concept of lockpicking, which prompted me to demonstrate the concept for it. My DM asked me how I would go about doing that, and I demonstrated it off-game. This involved jumping around while moving my butt in a rather strange manner, since the bee was supposed to use its stinger. This had the entire group cracking up in laughter for half an hour afterwards.
The DM let the bee pick the lock, BTW.
Well, back on topic. The group needs a rogue, so I thought of making a scout, giving him weapon finesse, lots of tumbling, and let him use his skirmish ability in close combat. I might convince the DM to let my use weapon finesse with a two-handed sword, on the basis that it would be a cool fighting style.
Any more thoughts, builds or good ideas? You have been great so far!
I owe an explanation of the pet bee as a lockpick story, I think:
...
Nice.
Well, back on topic. The group needs a rogue, so I thought of making a scout, giving him weapon finesse, lots of tumbling, and let him use his skirmish ability in close combat.
In Races of Destiny, there's a human racial feat called Able Learner, which allows you to buy cross-class skill ranks at the normal 1-for-1 price. It opens up lots of multiclass options for character who wants to be a skill monkey without necessarily taking lots of levels in a traditional skill monkey class. For example, a Rogue 1/Fighter 19 could have the same number of ranks in the same skills as a Rogue 20 and have payed the same number of skill points for them. The topic was recently discussed in depth here.
I haven't read the scout, so I can't offer any comments on it. But you might also want to consider the psychic rogue is your DM allows psionics. It's basically the same as the rogue, but with slightly fewer skill points and sneak attack, but access to some nifty powers and psionic feats (Entangling Ectoplasm + Wall Walker == your friendly neighborhood spidey). And as a bonus, the Expanded Knowledge feat allows you to learn powers from any class list, which greatly expands the psyrogue's power options.
I might convince the DM to let my use weapon finesse with a two-handed sword, on the basis that it would be a cool fighting style.
The rapier and spiked chain (which you can easily reflavor as a sword) are core, finessable weapons that can be wielded 2-handed.
At Fireclave
I have never played 3e or even read the books. But I do own 2e and 4e books.
In 2e and 1e there were a crap load of Role Playing spells, and a moderate amount of bang-bang spells. In 4e all spells are bang-bang with like 28 rituals. Like I said I never 3e'd so...
If it helps, most of 3e's core rules are in the SRD. Though I prefer this hypertext version.
Visiting the old CharOp boards could easly get you an engine of destruction. (Or a diplomancer of coercion)
Nevermind what your group is missing. What do you want to play?
I say, always go with your instincts first. Some of my favorite characters were just interesting concepts that hit me at a good time. (Done with that little bit now...)
Tanks can be fun, especially since you never run out of things to hit. And if you can get some good RP going with a character like that, it could be really fun and deep. Fighters are the "classic" tanks, but most people don't like them due to their lack of special stuff. However, a well-built Ftr can be a pretty good threat to just about anyone.
Knights are built for defense rather than going in and smashing something. They are at their best against a single opponent, making full use of their Knight's Challenge abilities.
The tumbling Rogue is always a good concept. You could actually pick up twin Elven Lightblades (From Chapter 4 of Complete Warrior) and do a really vicious TWF. 1d6+ whatever bonuses with threat of 18-20. Keen or Imp. Crit, anyone ;) ?
Minor nitpick, while Able Learner will allow you to buy cross class skills at reduced cost, you are still limited to (lvl+3)/2 ranks in cross class skills.
Not as long as the skill used to be on your class list.
However, fighter has a terrible number of skill points, so you need a 22 int (or other ways of getting additional skill points, such as Fey Kissed), to compete with the rogues initial 8 per level.
I might convince the DM to let my use weapon finesse with a two-handed sword, on the basis that it would be a cool fighting style.
You don't need to convince your DM of anything if you're allowed to pick up an elven courtblade (Races of the Wild).
Minor nitpick, while Able Learner will allow you to buy cross class skills at reduced cost, you are still limited to (lvl+3)/2 ranks in cross class skills.
Which is why I explictly mentioned multiclassing. So long as a skill as ever been a class skill for you, the maximum rank for that skill is lvl+3, even if its currently a cross-class skill. The thread I linked to goes into the details.
However, fighter has a terrible number of skill points, so you need a 22 int (or other ways of getting additional skill points, such as Fey Kissed), to compete with the rogues initial 8 per level.
It could work if you were only concerned in a few key skills. If you simply wanted a Fighter who could also trapsmith, you can easily buy Disable Device and Search with the Fighter's 2 skill points/level.
Then again, I only used the Fighter in the example to illustrate the example, not as an actual example of a build. Who would ever seriously suggest more than 4 levels of fighter. I mean, come on
I want to able to sneak, hide, spot, search and disable device. I do not know if that qualifies as skillmonkey. Perhaps a skillsquirrel or skillpossum :P
You are right, I want to be adept at either melee, ranged or spell combat.
Right now I am thinking of making a scout with STR 12, Con 14, DEX 17, Wis 15, INT 17, CHA 12
I will give him weapon finesse, and proficiency in 2 handed sword (which my DM has allowed to be used with weapon finesse). I will put max. ranks in tumbling.
This means that I will have some proficiency with the needed skills, as I have 11 skill points to spend at 1st lvl. I will have a melee attack bonus of +3, deal 3d6+1 points of damage if I use skirmish, have an AC of 15 with a leather armour.
However, I am unsure of how to proceed with this build. Should I take levels of ranger later on? If yes, it would be a waste to choose 2-handed sword as a feat, right?
Remember, I can only use DMG 1+2, PHB 1+2, Complete Adventurer's, Complete Warrior's, Complete Divine and Complete Arcane. I am trying to convince him to use Complete Scoundrel's as well.
Decisions, decisions.
And lastly: I am new to this forum, and quite impressed by you guys.
However, I am unsure of how to proceed with this build. Should I take levels of ranger later on?
Actually, it might not be a bad idea to splash some Swashbuckler in there instead of Ranger. Your Intelligence is pretty decent, and "Insightful Strike" allows you to add Int to damage when using Weapon Finesse.
Adding some Ranger levels would be the better way to go if the DM allows Complete Scoundrel material (soley because of the Swift Hunter feat)
Of course, multiclassing at all will hinder your skirmish progression, so it might be better to just stick with the Scout class...
You seem to be thinking of a different 3.5 than the rest of us.
it was a spell in 3.0, Animal Friendship which you could use to make animals your friend, as many as you like up to a certain HD limit based on your caster level and could dismiss and befriend other animals. Druid's Animal Companion feat only gave bonuses to an animal theat you befirended in this way and rangers didn't get Animal Companion, only this spell. 3.5 did away with this spell and replaced it with a more solid Animal Companion mechanic.
I do not know the factotum class. Where can I find it.
I want to able to sneak, hide, spot, search and disable device. I do not know if that qualifies as skillmonkey. Perhaps a skillsquirrel or skillpossum :P
Factotum is a class in Dungeonscape, a book all about dungeons! It was created with the idea of a "one-man party" in mind, but is also excellent as a "fifth man" next to the typical Fighter-Rogue-Wizard-Cleric set-up. Since all skills are Factotum class skills (which happens to include Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Search and Disable Device! :P) it would make you a nice skillsquirrel-monkey-possum... -thing. ("Skillmonkey" is just the commonly used term for a character focusing a lot on getting the most out of his skills. ;))
You are right, I want to be adept at either melee, ranged or spell combat.
Right now I am thinking of making a scout with STR 12, Con 14, DEX 17, Wis 15, INT 17, CHA 12
I will give him weapon finesse, and proficiency in 2 handed sword (which my DM has allowed to be used with weapon finesse). I will put max. ranks in tumbling.
Since the Factotum can temporarily get bonuses to various things (AC, saves, etc.) equal to his Intelligence modifier every so often, those stats would be perfect for one.
Remember, I can only use DMG 1+2, PHB 1+2, Complete Adventurer's, Complete Warrior's, Complete Divine and Complete Arcane. I am trying to convince him to use Complete Scoundrel's as well.
Ah, hm, yes. That'll be a problem there, though.
I was thinking more in the line of an extra 5 feet of free movement.
That would allow me to move 10 feet and attack with 2 weapons and get skirmish bonuses for both.
That is a monster ability, isn't it?
I was thinking more in the line of an extra 5 feet of free movement.
That would allow me to move 10 feet and attack with 2 weapons and get skirmish bonuses for both.
Between the list of monster races, polymorph, and Savage-species, you can do it.
Pounce?
Good point...use the Barbarian substitution ability in Complete Champion to get pounce for the cost of just a 1-level dip!
Edit: Oh, frakk,,,that book isn't allowed.
Are there a feat or class ability which will allow a move of at least 10 feet followed by a full melee attack?
In addition to the already mentioned polymorph, in the PH2 there are two feats, Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz. They're basically extensions of the Spring Attack feat, allowing you to get two and then three attacks. So you can move, slice-thrice, and then move away again. The downside is that these feats requires an a high Bab and are rather feat intensive to qualify for. If these feats look attractive to you, you may want to consider splashing a level or two or fighter to for the bonus feats and BaB boost.
The PH2 also has Two-Weapon Pounce, which allows you to get two attacks when you charge if you are wielding two weapons.
None of these are technically full-attacks, but they may be close enough for your needs.
1 - Cleric - Weapon finesse, Travel devotion
2 - Scout
3 - Ranger - 2 weapon fighting, swift hunter. Voilá! Full attack skirmishing!
4 - Ranger
5 - Ranger
6 - Ranger - Improved skirmish
7 - Ranger
8 - Ranger
9 - Ranger - Extra turning for additional travel devotion uses
... then what?
Skrimish seems to scale nicely to level 17, putting my char at level 18 with the cleric level. The ranger does not get much more powerful the 2 last levels, so I do not not know what to do. 2 levels of fighter for the feats?
Any thoughts?
Cool, no XP penalty for me, then. Any other thoughts?
Edit: Don't know how I managed to miss the 'one minute' duration of Travel Devotion, since that's the duration of EVERY DOMAIN FEAT.
However, you are right about the swift hunter feat. This means I have to throw in another level of Cleric as well, in order to avoid the 20% XP penalty.
I think you have misread Travel Devotion.
Crap, you're right. :embarrass In that case, the build is viable, so long as you can avoid multiclassing penalties. (Cleric 2/Scout 3/Ranger 15).
I think I will play him slightly mentally unstable. Anyone who have to tumble every round in order to do the maximum amount of damage has got to be slightly bonkers
1 - Cleric - Weapon finesse, Travel devotion
2 - Scout
3 - Ranger - 2 weapon fighting, swift hunter. Voilá! Full attack skirmishing!
There's absolutely no reason to take cleric as your first level: if you take Scout instead, you gain 24 extra skill points (from a great list) at the cost of a measly 1 HP (on average).
If you are worried about HPs, take Ranger first and get 16 extra skill points (from a good list) and also gain 1 HP (on average).
That you can't take Swift Hunter at level 3 and Weapon Finesse at level 1 has already been pointed out. Complete Champion (Travel Devotion) is not on the list of accepted sources. Ranger only grants the weapon style feat (2-weapon fighting in your case) at 2nd level, not at first.
BTW, all the "Complete" books are OK.
1st Cleric 1 - Trade out Travel domain for Travel Devotion, Dodge, Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd Scout 1
3rd Ranger 1 - Weapon Finesse
4th Ranger 2 - Retrain Two-Weapon Fighting into something else, like Improved Toughness
5th Scout 2
6th Scout 3 - Swift Hunter, retrain Dodge into Expeditious Dodge if possible (RotW)
7th Cleric 2
8th Ranger 3
9th Ranger 4 - Improved Skirmish, Trade out spellcasting for bonus feats (CC) to take either Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Defense. Trade out your animal companion for something, anything else.
10th-20th Ranger 5-14
How do I trade a domain for a feat? Which book is the rules in? I am a 3.5 noob ;)
On 2nd lvl, how do I get the feat you suggest?
How do I retrain feats?
Thanks again
The feat at 2nd level...I have no idea why that's there. :embarrass
Retraining is covered in the PHB2. Basically, you can swap out a feat for a new feat every time you level up. However, you have to be able to qualify for the new feat at the same level you would have gotten it. So, for example, if you took Toughness at 1st level, you couldn't later retrain it into Whirlwind Attack even though you qualify for it - you'd have to be able to meet the prereqs as a 1st-level character.
Is it possible with retraining of feats to start by taking power attack and cleave and then later when you get great cleave can you then trade cleave into something else that you could take at the point you selected cleave?
When mentioning trading animal companion for something else, do you mean the alternative feats that they provide in ph II?
I have been reading about domain feats and I can't seem to find how you can trade your domains for either Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Defense. I would love if you could throw the page number because I need it too
I think you might be reading the thing I put up a bit wrongly.
#1 - You trade out one of your domains for a Domain feat.
#2 - You swap out your Ranger spellcasting for feats, as shown in Complete Champion in the alternate class feature's section, the "Champion of the Wild" variant.
Is it possible with retraining of feats to start by taking power attack and cleave and then later when you get great cleave can you then trade cleave into something else that you could take at the point you selected cleave?
Nope. You need to have the Cleave feat to qualify for and use Great Cleave. Feat retraining is for those feats that would really benefit a character early on in his career, but won't be of any help later on. For example, a Bard could really benefit from taking Extra Music at 1st level, and then about level 5 or 6 retrain it into a more useful feat, like Great Fortitude or something else with no prereqs.
When mentioning trading animal companion for something else, do you mean the alternative feats that they provide in ph II?
Er, yeah, the alternate class features. The one in PHB2 is good for focusing on your combat ability, while the one in CC is good for making you a bit more skillful. Either one is preferable to a gimped animal companion (more so than normal due to multiclassing).
but the build you have here looks to be getting fairly sweet