Lacking Story and Motivation - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Lacking Story and Motivation

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
DMYeg
Jan 22, 2013 8:57:24 Background:

Lately, I have taken up to playing with a new group of people. The particular edition of D&D matters very little for the purpose of this discussion, I think. Anyway, the group is lively and everyone enjoys their characters. Give or take a few times, virtually everyone in the group is able to do whatever they like and there is a real chance of bad consequences; pretty much, people have to think before they act. The role-playing is good, and I suppose that I can get into character very easily. The DM likes to play by the core rules and doesn't allow much in terms of custom modifications of rules; I can appreciate that and I find it alright as well as everyone else at the table. This is where the good ends.

Dilemma:

The string of adventures (I specifically don't want to refer to it as a campaign) feels extremely impersonal. What I mean is that there are lapses of time that the party does not know why we are doing what we are doing in a given dungeon. Nobody has any motivation to even remember what the task was, because the quests do not appeal to anyone. Nobody is saying anything, and everyone is continuing to enjoy their characters, thus making it seem like everything is alright. I know that there is something wrong when the DM asks what our main objective is and nobody can answer, until I have to dig through my notes. Again, I believe the reason may be because the adventure simply feels impersonal. What do you guys think?

Examples:

There are too many to list, but lets start with why I don't think that what I am experiencing can be classified as a campaign. First, we (the players and myself at the foremost) cannot tell when a new adventure starts and when the old one ends. The world seems way too open-ended, without any real direction or "evil" for a lack of a better descriptor. Thus, I cannot accurately tell what adventures the party has completed and what all the awards are for. My characters is level 7 and it is tough to imagine that he is interested in anything that is happening in the world. The DM dished out some creative stories to everyone, but those stories fell flat after a few levels, since the world seemed to have forgotten about them. At this point, the party seems to be bumbling about with no real direction. I am losing motivation to really continue through another forest of orcs or another random dungeon with some chalice in it or whatnot. I am losing motivation without a central villain or any other villain for that matter.

My character has started to grow reckless, because everything seems impersonal. For some reason, I feel like the adventurers could not make a difference in the world, because there is no difference to be made. Imagine the Spiderman or Batman never really had any iconic villains and instead dispensed justice on robbers, murderers and rapists. It would be a hell of a lot less fun, wouldn't you agree? I guess that is my real concern. Other players have resorted to other means to keep having fun. They don't say it, but I have enough experience to tell when someone is trying desperately to create something out of nothing.

So tell me, how should I approach this. The combat is very interesting and generally, the DM goes a long way to make the world realistic. I don't want to simply quit, but it just seems like that is where it is going. I know that I am speaking for other members of the group a bit more than I should, but somehow I can see that others might be at least partially in-line of my thinking. So as I mentioned above, am I simply expecting something unreasonable and do most sessions seem impersonal? Should I give up on or should I speak to the DM? I find it intimidating to speak to the DM about the quality of the adventures, thus I would be at a loss for words, what do you guys suggest? What about the rest of the party? I feel that if I bring this issue of mine to light, the atmosphere will be killed and the DM is going to over-focus on trying my way. Clearly, I am sort of conflicted here, so I am going to look to the community on this one.
#2
iserith
Jan 22, 2013 9:52:00 First, story is an artifact of play - it is created by playing, not beforehand by the DM for the players to experience. (See the links in my sig for some additional thoughts on that.) I would also note that regardless of the advice we give here, it is highly unlikely you will get the DM to change his approach. Even strangers on the internet savagely attack each other when you suggest that they run their game differently, even if they have come to the forums with an obvious problem in their approach.

I have an idea of what's going on here, but would like some more information before I make any recommendations. Your frustration is understandable. On its surface, it sounds like a lack of pacing, framing, and player involvement. I'm curious what's under the hood.

To use the common, if unfortunately loaded, terminology: Is the DM running a sandbox campaign? Or is he running railroads?
#3
DMYeg
Jan 22, 2013 10:56:28 @iserith:

I suppose it is a bit on the player side that we are not getting as much out of it as we should. To answer your question, the DM is running a sandbox campaign that feels like it is on railroads. What I mean by that is that we can certainly diviate from whatever we are supposed to do, but in the end, I can see that the DM reels us in to a particular adventure which, time and time again, I am not finding interesting in the least. Here is a brief example, the party was dumped on an island for a stupid reason (a ship was overcrowded), and some savages pretty much forced us to go and retreive some artifact on an island or die trying.

Personally, the scenario would be fine, but it is simply a link between combat and nothing else. There are no noteworthy role-playing opportunities. I can't make a story for my character if I can't relate whatsoever to the adventure. To make this have more sense, it is like in the real world, if someone just plucked you from your house and put you in the middle of Africa or Australia or somewhere. Why are you there? Did you want to be there? Is there a reason to stay? I know, a pretty bad example, but again, I am at a loss for words.

By no means am I currently hating the sessions, the playstyle is just starting to grind away the block of fun that opposes the block of time. Once the time becomes greater than the fun, I think I might quit. How would you approach this issue, talking to the DM or whatnot? No sure what I would say... the adventures just seem impersonal. Not sure if the pacing seems to be the problem, since a lot gets done, and I am not sure what framing pertains to. As for player involvement, I find it lacking outside of combat. Now that I think about it, the style might be that of railroad, since we are essentially pushed from one encounter to the next without any real story anywhere to be found.

Also, I am going to reference your link to get more about the story of play. Day to day I discover that D&D has become a completely different game from what I remember...
#4
jplay36
Jan 22, 2013 11:40:08 Ok. I see some of your problem is that it sounds like the DM just isn't involving the characters stories into the game. From your OP it sounds like each of your characters has a backstory of some kind that you all shared with the DM. He could easily use that information to add more depth to your adventures and make the game for personal for each player. Something it sounds like he is not doing.

Maybe you could suggest/ask about if there are any plans of his to incorporate things like that. Maybe he already has plans to do such that you are unaware of, or maybe he just needs a reminder. It could be as simple as bringing up an encounter where your character sees a friend from childhood and catches up with them on what's going on back where you grew up. (opportunity for "saving your hometown" kind of thing). Maybe he could make someone that wronged you in your backstory (if you have such) show up. These are just some ideas that might help you to help him make things more personalized.

Another thing is that which was mentioned before. The story should come about by playing the game and the actions of the characters. So you have more control than you think (Unless your DM prevents you which is a whole other problem). Let's say your characters backstory is that they fell in love with someone from their hometown and that person loved them too, but was arranged to be married to someone else. Your character left heartbroken and is adventuring to try to forget the "One that got away". If/when you are in a town resting up between fights, you could say that your character is trying to rest but can't because they can't stop looking at the locket that their "lost love" gave them, and you have to find out what happened to him/her.

This could give the DM an opportunity to introduce more stuff from your backstory. Perhaps all your DM is needed is some "help" from the players to "remind" him and give him good lead ins for adding personal stuff for each character.

There are thousands of examples of how you could bring up your backstory in game and it could really help to get the game more personalized. Plus by doing it you could give the other players the idea to do similar things and it could therefore really get the story of your group to develop into something that gets all of you excited.
#5
iserith
Jan 22, 2013 11:47:01
@iserith:

I suppose it is a bit on the player side that we are not getting as much out of it as we should. To answer your question, the DM is running a sandbox campaign that feels like it is on railroads.

When I first saw your post, I wrote up a long response suggesting this was what he doing, then erased it, saying, "You know what? I should ask first before going into all of this." D'oh! Whatever the case, you have identified the source of the problem on your own. Now it's just a matter of dealing with it.

Personally, the scenario would be fine, but it is simply a link between combat and nothing else. There are no noteworthy role-playing opportunities. I can't make a story for my character if I can't relate whatsoever to the adventure. To make this have more sense, it is like in the real world, if someone just plucked you from your house and put you in the middle of Africa or Australia or somewhere. Why are you there? Did you want to be there? Is there a reason to stay? I know, a pretty bad example, but again, I am at a loss for words.

Yes, I see this very commonly in games. It's especially true of DMs that run modules and the like. In order to make it work, you really need player buy-in which it seems this DM doesn't have (from you at least). I'm guessing the style of game wasn't made clear to you at the outset by way of a Session Zero.

By no means am I currently hating the sessions, the playstyle is just starting to grind away the block of fun that opposes the block of time. Once the time becomes greater than the fun, I think I might quit.

That's a clever way of putting that. I like how you think about it.

How would you approach this issue, talking to the DM or whatnot? No sure what I would say... the adventures just seem impersonal. Not sure if the pacing seems to be the problem, since a lot gets done, and I am not sure what framing pertains to. As for player involvement, I find it lacking outside of combat. Now that I think about it, the style might be that of railroad, since we are essentially pushed from one encounter to the next without any real story anywhere to be found.

I wish I had good advice for you about talking to your DM. A direct conversation about this is likely to be seen as an affront. Even people who have never seen each other in person on the forums attack each other for suggesting they try something different to alleviate their problems. No matter how you approach it, it's likely to be an uncomfortable conversation. Perhaps leading by example would be a good idea - offer to run a game or two. Do unto them as you'd like to have done to you, so to speak. And then see what happens.

Also, I am going to reference your link to get more about the story of play. Day to day I discover that D&D has become a completely different game from what I remember...

It hasn't, though I can imagine why you perceive it that way. Part of this is the perception among many DMs these days it seems that there is only one solution to an in-game fictional problem (often "fight") and only one plausible outcome or consequence to the PCs' actions which can often be boring or frustrating. Any other choice beside the one the DM has imagined is blocked, leaving you with the impression that you have no real meaningful choice in the game (and you'd be right).
#6
Centauri
Jan 22, 2013 12:43:20 I never saw a game that focused on what I wanted it to focus on until I became a DM. Unfortunately, it took me years after that to realize that what the DM wants the game to focus on is only part of what needs to be present in the game. Until then, I was having the same problem of players not caring enough about what was going on in the game to remember it from session to session. I'm still not out of that rut, but I've made some progress.

So, try DMing a few sessions yourself. Garner and use player input the way you'd like to see it done. Invite your DM to the game, if possible.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DMYeg Jan 22, 2013 8:57:24	Background: Lately, I have taken up to playing with a new group of people. The particular edition of D&D matters very little for the purpose of this discussion, I think. Anyway, the group is lively and everyone enjoys their characters. Give or take a few times, virtually everyone in the group is able to do whatever they like and there is a real chance of bad consequences; pretty much, people have to think before they act. The role-playing is good, and I suppose that I can get into character very easily. The DM likes to play by the core rules and doesn't allow much in terms of custom modifications of rules; I can appreciate that and I find it alright as well as everyone else at the table. This is where the good ends. Dilemma: The string of adventures (I specifically don't want to refer to it as a campaign) feels extremely impersonal. What I mean is that there are lapses of time that the party does not know why we are doing what we are doing in a given dungeon. Nobody has any motivation to even remember what the task was, because the quests do not appeal to anyone. Nobody is saying anything, and everyone is continuing to enjoy their characters, thus making it seem like everything is alright. I know that there is something wrong when the DM asks what our main objective is and nobody can answer, until I have to dig through my notes. Again, I believe the reason may be because the adventure simply feels impersonal. What do you guys think? Examples: There are too many to list, but lets start with why I don't think that what I am experiencing can be classified as a campaign. First, we (the players and myself at the foremost) cannot tell when a new adventure starts and when the old one ends. The world seems way too open-ended, without any real direction or "evil" for a lack of a better descriptor. Thus, I cannot accurately tell what adventures the party has completed and what all the awards are for. My characters is level 7 and it is tough to imagine that he is interested in anything that is happening in the world. The DM dished out some creative stories to everyone, but those stories fell flat after a few levels, since the world seemed to have forgotten about them. At this point, the party seems to be bumbling about with no real direction. I am losing motivation to really continue through another forest of orcs or another random dungeon with some chalice in it or whatnot. I am losing motivation without a central villain or any other villain for that matter. My character has started to grow reckless, because everything seems impersonal. For some reason, I feel like the adventurers could not make a difference in the world, because there is no difference to be made. Imagine the Spiderman or Batman never really had any iconic villains and instead dispensed justice on robbers, murderers and rapists. It would be a hell of a lot less fun, wouldn't you agree? I guess that is my real concern. Other players have resorted to other means to keep having fun. They don't say it, but I have enough experience to tell when someone is trying desperately to create something out of nothing. So tell me, how should I approach this. The combat is very interesting and generally, the DM goes a long way to make the world realistic. I don't want to simply quit, but it just seems like that is where it is going. I know that I am speaking for other members of the group a bit more than I should, but somehow I can see that others might be at least partially in-line of my thinking. So as I mentioned above, am I simply expecting something unreasonable and do most sessions seem impersonal? Should I give up on or should I speak to the DM? I find it intimidating to speak to the DM about the quality of the adventures, thus I would be at a loss for words, what do you guys suggest? What about the rest of the party? I feel that if I bring this issue of mine to light, the atmosphere will be killed and the DM is going to over-focus on trying my way. Clearly, I am sort of conflicted here, so I am going to look to the community on this one.
#2 iserith Jan 22, 2013 9:52:00	First, story is an artifact of play - it is created by playing, not beforehand by the DM for the players to experience. (See the links in my sig for some additional thoughts on that.) I would also note that regardless of the advice we give here, it is highly unlikely you will get the DM to change his approach. Even strangers on the internet savagely attack each other when you suggest that they run their game differently, even if they have come to the forums with an obvious problem in their approach. I have an idea of what's going on here, but would like some more information before I make any recommendations. Your frustration is understandable. On its surface, it sounds like a lack of pacing, framing, and player involvement. I'm curious what's under the hood. To use the common, if unfortunately loaded, terminology: Is the DM running a sandbox campaign? Or is he running railroads?
#3 DMYeg Jan 22, 2013 10:56:28	@iserith: I suppose it is a bit on the player side that we are not getting as much out of it as we should. To answer your question, the DM is running a sandbox campaign that feels like it is on railroads. What I mean by that is that we can certainly diviate from whatever we are supposed to do, but in the end, I can see that the DM reels us in to a particular adventure which, time and time again, I am not finding interesting in the least. Here is a brief example, the party was dumped on an island for a stupid reason (a ship was overcrowded), and some savages pretty much forced us to go and retreive some artifact on an island or die trying. Personally, the scenario would be fine, but it is simply a link between combat and nothing else. There are no noteworthy role-playing opportunities. I can't make a story for my character if I can't relate whatsoever to the adventure. To make this have more sense, it is like in the real world, if someone just plucked you from your house and put you in the middle of Africa or Australia or somewhere. Why are you there? Did you want to be there? Is there a reason to stay? I know, a pretty bad example, but again, I am at a loss for words. By no means am I currently hating the sessions, the playstyle is just starting to grind away the block of fun that opposes the block of time. Once the time becomes greater than the fun, I think I might quit. How would you approach this issue, talking to the DM or whatnot? No sure what I would say... the adventures just seem impersonal. Not sure if the pacing seems to be the problem, since a lot gets done, and I am not sure what framing pertains to. As for player involvement, I find it lacking outside of combat. Now that I think about it, the style might be that of railroad, since we are essentially pushed from one encounter to the next without any real story anywhere to be found. Also, I am going to reference your link to get more about the story of play. Day to day I discover that D&D has become a completely different game from what I remember...
#4 jplay36 Jan 22, 2013 11:40:08	Ok. I see some of your problem is that it sounds like the DM just isn't involving the characters stories into the game. From your OP it sounds like each of your characters has a backstory of some kind that you all shared with the DM. He could easily use that information to add more depth to your adventures and make the game for personal for each player. Something it sounds like he is not doing. Maybe you could suggest/ask about if there are any plans of his to incorporate things like that. Maybe he already has plans to do such that you are unaware of, or maybe he just needs a reminder. It could be as simple as bringing up an encounter where your character sees a friend from childhood and catches up with them on what's going on back where you grew up. (opportunity for "saving your hometown" kind of thing). Maybe he could make someone that wronged you in your backstory (if you have such) show up. These are just some ideas that might help you to help him make things more personalized. Another thing is that which was mentioned before. The story should come about by playing the game and the actions of the characters. So you have more control than you think (Unless your DM prevents you which is a whole other problem). Let's say your characters backstory is that they fell in love with someone from their hometown and that person loved them too, but was arranged to be married to someone else. Your character left heartbroken and is adventuring to try to forget the "One that got away". If/when you are in a town resting up between fights, you could say that your character is trying to rest but can't because they can't stop looking at the locket that their "lost love" gave them, and you have to find out what happened to him/her. This could give the DM an opportunity to introduce more stuff from your backstory. Perhaps all your DM is needed is some "help" from the players to "remind" him and give him good lead ins for adding personal stuff for each character. There are thousands of examples of how you could bring up your backstory in game and it could really help to get the game more personalized. Plus by doing it you could give the other players the idea to do similar things and it could therefore really get the story of your group to develop into something that gets all of you excited.
#5 iserith Jan 22, 2013 11:47:01	@iserith: I suppose it is a bit on the player side that we are not getting as much out of it as we should. To answer your question, the DM is running a sandbox campaign that feels like it is on railroads. When I first saw your post, I wrote up a long response suggesting this was what he doing, then erased it, saying, "You know what? I should ask first before going into all of this." D'oh! Whatever the case, you have identified the source of the problem on your own. Now it's just a matter of dealing with it. Personally, the scenario would be fine, but it is simply a link between combat and nothing else. There are no noteworthy role-playing opportunities. I can't make a story for my character if I can't relate whatsoever to the adventure. To make this have more sense, it is like in the real world, if someone just plucked you from your house and put you in the middle of Africa or Australia or somewhere. Why are you there? Did you want to be there? Is there a reason to stay? I know, a pretty bad example, but again, I am at a loss for words. Yes, I see this very commonly in games. It's especially true of DMs that run modules and the like. In order to make it work, you really need player buy-in which it seems this DM doesn't have (from you at least). I'm guessing the style of game wasn't made clear to you at the outset by way of a Session Zero. By no means am I currently hating the sessions, the playstyle is just starting to grind away the block of fun that opposes the block of time. Once the time becomes greater than the fun, I think I might quit. That's a clever way of putting that. I like how you think about it. How would you approach this issue, talking to the DM or whatnot? No sure what I would say... the adventures just seem impersonal. Not sure if the pacing seems to be the problem, since a lot gets done, and I am not sure what framing pertains to. As for player involvement, I find it lacking outside of combat. Now that I think about it, the style might be that of railroad, since we are essentially pushed from one encounter to the next without any real story anywhere to be found. I wish I had good advice for you about talking to your DM. A direct conversation about this is likely to be seen as an affront. Even people who have never seen each other in person on the forums attack each other for suggesting they try something different to alleviate their problems. No matter how you approach it, it's likely to be an uncomfortable conversation. Perhaps leading by example would be a good idea - offer to run a game or two. Do unto them as you'd like to have done to you, so to speak. And then see what happens. Also, I am going to reference your link to get more about the story of play. Day to day I discover that D&D has become a completely different game from what I remember... It hasn't, though I can imagine why you perceive it that way. Part of this is the perception among many DMs these days it seems that there is only one solution to an in-game fictional problem (often "fight") and only one plausible outcome or consequence to the PCs' actions which can often be boring or frustrating. Any other choice beside the one the DM has imagined is blocked, leaving you with the impression that you have no real meaningful choice in the game (and you'd be right).
#6 Centauri Jan 22, 2013 12:43:20	I never saw a game that focused on what I wanted it to focus on until I became a DM. Unfortunately, it took me years after that to realize that what the DM wants the game to focus on is only part of what needs to be present in the game. Until then, I was having the same problem of players not caring enough about what was going on in the game to remember it from session to session. I'm still not out of that rut, but I've made some progress. So, try DMing a few sessions yourself. Garner and use player input the way you'd like to see it done. Invite your DM to the game, if possible.