Here’s the situation.
- Our group members are now Inquisitives of Sharn.
- Several murders have occurred in the City.
- The DM tells us that the killer has extremely powerful magic abilities… the magic is still detectable AFTER she leaves the scene… DMs words VERY powerful magic…maybe with help, too.
- Evidence also showed that she was able to shapeshift……I don’t know if a Shifter or Changeling…
- The victims are all trained for combat, so able to defend themselves.
- During our investigation, 3 types of weapons have been used. Double edged like a sword point or wide blade dagger, a curved blade weapon and an axe of some sort…so it appears well skilled in many weapon types.
- The weapon used in at least one case was EXTREMELY sharp….. sharper than a normal or even a +1 or normal magic weapon.
- One victim was a warforged…..and he was taken apart. Absolutely destroyed… her anger seemed to be escalating, too.
- The City has stated that the killer must be dealt with ASAP ….
- We found evidence for 69 murders by this killer…solid evidence…cut from the bodies of the victims…and kept by the killer…..evidence recovered by us...and ALL of them were skilled at fighting….. so the killer HAD to be good to win 69 straight combats.
- We finally got a piece from the killer and used magic to track her down…. So 100% sure that we found her.
- We go back to the inn where she works and she is in the kitchen….one of us goes in to talk with her…I’m standing outside the kitchen, but able to watch her and my comrade. The DM states that she is aware that we are onto her… and I verify this again with the DM….. she has given away the fact that she knows we know she is the killer. (body language….or something….
- A request was made for more ale…and instead of going to the bar area, she goes to the basement….. I follow…and my comrades don’t immediately back me up…..she goes into a room, I follow…and my comrades are either on the stairs still or still in the passageway leading to the room….. I am the only one ACTUALLY in the room. None of my comrades had actually covered my back by following me DIRECTLY ..
- She fills her hand with some unknown claw-like weapon …her hands were visible to me….. And warns me that I don’t want any part of her….to leave the room and not get involved.
My character is a 4th level Battle Cleric, Dwarf, follower of Moradin. …… and my comrades are still not PHYCICALLY in the room … closer now, but not IN with me
My concern is her dealing with me 1 on 1 quickly (she has extremely powerful magic, extremely good with weapons…and has extremely POWERFUL weapons at her disposal …and has done so with ease 69 times in the past (and the demolished, battle hardened warforged stands out most in my mind)
I thought the passage leading to the room was 5 feet wide…. So if she eliminated me quickly, she might be able to control the entranceway or the actual hall and face the entire group I at a time or at most 2… take us apart piecemeal (my cleric also has Tactical Studies)
I activate my Astral Blade , spend a point and attack with my main weapon.……. I was going to do my best to occupy her at least long enough for the entire group to get into the room …..she laughed off the 24 points of damage my attack did….didn’t phase her a bit
I then got lambasted by my group and the DM …. Not playing my Lawful Good …. I should not have attacked a mass murderer, who has extremely powerful magic, well versed in combat….. I should have tried talking…. Basically, I should have given the INITIATIVE to the opponent … (I am relatively new to 4e…and forgot about READY ACTION…but so did a veteran player of the group….the one most vocal against me)
“Oh you attacked a young lady with no effort to try other means…. That isn’t Lawful Good…you’re not playing your alignment….
Combat stops…… the group is talking her down….she hands over her weapons and such telling the group members to hold them for her, that she will be back for them…..she STILL intends to continue hunting the last 3 people..she will not stop.
City guard take her away……adventure done….. and the lambaste continued.
I had acted earlier… to gain entrance to a private residence…..and went to jail for it…. But at that time, all we had were 2 clues….. 1) one person we KNEW was to be a future victim….and a bakery across the street….those were the only clues we had going….and since the entire neighborhood knew who and what we were doing…staking out the “future victim”….wouldn’t have worked … the killer would have just gone down her list of victims….especially if she discovered us all accounted for in the stakeout…
The BIGGEST lambasting was due to my fighting a young girl….without talking to her…even after she went from no weapon…to filling her hand with one…and warning me off ……
Keep the fighting in the middle of the room…even if she rendered me hors de combat…..or dead. Which would then let EVERYONE actually get in and support me….. the fighting could have continued…or maybe then talk…. But the TACTICAL SITUATION would have been much different once they were with me… her options lessened extremely.
I was making sure that this person would NOT be able to disappear again…
oh...I only have 40-some-odd HP ... and have no clear idea exactly HOW powerful she or her magic is..... but the best samurai in history only won 60 1 on 1 battles 
...and she topped that
MeScipioII wrote:
I activate my Astral Blade , spend a point and attack with my main weapon.……. I was going to do my best to occupy her at least long enough for the entire group to get into the room …..she laughed off the 24 points of damage my attack did….didn’t phase her a bit
What edition? If it's 4e, alignment doesn't matter mechanically, so who cares what they say? That is, of course, presuming you're not blocking in this situation. If the party established that they wanted to deal with her peacefully and you attacked her, then you blocked them and it's no wonder they reacted negatively. If that's what occurred, apologize for blocking and then try not to do that in the future. It's a bad habit, especially among D&D players, frequently justified by saying "Well, that's what my character would do." Actually, it's what your character could do, but you can choose otherwise since you're in full control of your character.
It sounds like your DM is following some DMing advice from the 90s which goes something like this: Plot Killing Situation. It's a pretty terrible way to approach the game in my view and leads to unfun situations like the one you're describing. It looks to me that you've been doing your investigation thing and you've gotten to the culprit but the DM's plot does not call for you to defeat her at this point. Thus, the DM blocked you rather than letting the situation play out fairly. Investigation adventures in D&D are for sucka DMs anyway because they're about teasing the plot out of cagey NPCs and following clues to where you're supposed to go to solve the mystery. It's a pretty weak setup for a game of fantasy action/adventure. The NPCs should be interviewing YOU because you do awesome things they can only dream about, not the other way around! (To that end, inquisitives make great NPCs and foils for the PCs. PC inquisitives, not so much.)
not blocking...
.she knew we knew she was the killer.........and when she started to go downstairs instead of to the bar area, there was no way I was letting her out of my sight......noone followed closely.....I got into the room soon after her..... and the DM then semi-described the weapon she had armed herself with....and her words of warning/threat to me.......I was 2 or 3 squares into the room... and the nearest comrade of mine was 2 or 3 squares up the hallway.......I was the only one who could see her ...... and the only way any of them would know if she attacked me would only be once she launched her attack.... none of them were in a position to intimidate her or make her consider options .....or support me in any way
if I had just stood there.. she'd have gotten in an attack...... and at 7 years old I learned the military aphorism "The best defense is a strong offence" .... so I attacked as soon as she decided to fill her hand with a weapon and threaten me
(my mom taught me when I was young to avoid fights....... but she also taught me that if fighting is needed, hit first and hit often) ..... and the killer decided to arm herself
and again.... the super powerful magic she had per the DM, the 69 victims were all trained warriors and the destroyed warforged were at the top of my mind once I realized I was TEMPORARILY isolated with a person much more powerful than me.....if she was to attack, it would be while she and I were the only ones in the room ........ and there was no way I'd let her go out a secret door or such and escape......
oh well .... thx
MeScipioII wrote:
hahaha thx guys...... they are going to have me change allignments........ but that still doesn't make the joke any funnier......
hahaha thx guys...... they are going to have me change allignments........ but that still doesn't make the joke any funnier......
oh..... a funny side note....... while 1 comrade and I were sitting in jail for 2 days...... I asked the jailer for a deck of cards....I figured to pray to my God for some of the time and then the 2 of us play cards...... the DM even took umbrage at that........
I started playing D&D in the late 70s.... original rules...... it was always a game....... long before backstories, backgrounds and such...... I have always had a life in the real world.... relationships, hiking, cycling, softball, historic wargaming, books, ...... I never felt the need to live my life vicariously through a made-up entity.......
I play the game to relax and help me get my mind off my having to close my school, having to sell my old house, , spending the last 2 years criminally prosecuting and civilly suing someone who destroyed all I worked for ..... ...and so far not getting much satisfaction.......
bottom line, it has been a good part of my life, a fun part...... but it is suppoised to be fun......no understanding how someone would want to take it so seriously
Some people treat the time they have to relax as something sacred and want to enjoy it a very specific way.
The way you feel about people who can't relax at game is the way I feel about your use of an ellipsis.
LMAO @ the people gang-blaming alignment.
I wonder if these people also blame guns for shootings instead of the shooter.
Aaanyway...
To the OP: your table-mates are being bullying jerks. Your character is yours. You can play them as you wish. Send them my way on here and I'll set them straight on alignment and how to use it.
YagamiFire wrote:
RedSiegfried wrote:
thx guys...hope your weekend was good
RedSiegfried wrote:
What an unfortunate story. Every time someone comes here and says "the other players stopped me from doing this", I feel sad. Story stops, fellings are hurt, not-interesting stuff happens. Just keep the game rolling man, and improvise when someone does something unexpected! (even if it is a stupid move
)
There are LOTS of things I could correct or object to here. But I'm just going to address 2.
1."I was alone in the room! With no backup!"
Not really important. I'm only touching this one because it's an easy example of your ... disconnect ... from reality. I'll let the pic speak for itself. This was your starting position before the lunge. And there's everyone else, 3 squares away at the closest. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dl0vae&s=8
2. "Everyone bullied me!"
Look, I'm going to give it to you straight. Your character is a thug. Nothing wrong with that. You play your character the way you want to. But don't expect everyone to back you up (in character).
A couple of scenes before the final showdown, you savagely beat an innocent baker who refused to let you into his back room. The other PCs stood by horrified, but didn't intervene to stop you. At least one of them DID warn you that if you wigged out again they would not back you up a second time. The city guard showed up and hauled you away. You did some jail time, and the adventure continued.
When you decided to kill the BBEG in the basement, one of the PCs backed you up in the attack through the first round. When BBEG's init came up and she stood there pleading instead of counter attacking, the silent majority spoke up in her defense, saying that if she was willing to surrender to the courts and the city guard, they were happier to see her hang under law rather than have her stabbed to death in a dank cellar.
There was a huge argument over what to do, but it was an in game argument between PCs. As DM, I stayed out of it, except for the somewhat psychotic comments from the BBEG. I'm of the opinion that the conversation was a good one, and a necessary one.
The party hadn't been together long, and after the baker incident, it was good to let the PCs figure out how they were going to handle the law from now on. It was heated, but it was in game, and it was a good conversation.
When it became clear that the party as a whole was against the “lets take justice into our own hands” strategy, and were instead going to call the city guard, you lost it, and YOU took the whole conversation out of character and out of game.
There were a lot of explosive comments coming out all of a sudden. I’m paraphrasing here, but a couple highlights were. “Damn it, I was a police officer for 3 years(player, not character), and murderers deserve to be shot on sight!” and “My character is a Lawful Good Cleric of Moradin! If he wants to kill someone, it’s for a good reason! If I lose my powers, whatever, I’ll just do a quest to get them back.” etc. etc.
My comments, and the comments of a few others, were for everyone to keep things in character. I should have stuck to that harder, but the conversation veered strongly out of character. You took it there. Eventually, people started responding. We did get sidetracked into a brief conversation on what was or was not Lawful Good. But let’s be clear here, at no time did anyone try to tell you (out of character) what your character could or could not do.
Now, I actually agree with the comments of a lot of people in this thread. Out of character discussions on what is or isn’t an alignment appropriate action doesn’t really add to the game. I’m tempted to scrap the whole alignment system in general, just as a way of making people more accountable for what they do. Actions have consequences, but good vs. evil is a bit more gray.
We also made a system that encouraged people to stay in character more. Players get 3 tokens at the start of the night. They can cash these in for action points or re-rolls. They get more for good roleplay. They need to surrender them if they take things out of character.
We had those conversation, and a couple of others. I’m not sure how much of that was after you took off. You left in something of a huff, and we weren't really sure if we would ever see you again.
Anyway, I’ve chatted with the other players, and we don’t hold your outburst against you. You skipped one session, but if you want to come back you are welcome.
Only thing is, you HAVE to keep things in character. We will try to do the same. In character, people are going to disagree, butt heads, and may even come to blows over the different moral outlooks in the party. It will take some in game talking through to sort these things out. I think that’s good clean fun, within reason, and the other folks agree with me.
You’ve just got to decide if you agree too. If so, we look forward to seeing you next game. If not, no hard feelings, but this group might not be the best fit for you.
1) that pic was not the immediate pic upon my lunge...they were 3 squares up the hallway.... and the figures kept getting moved on the map during the lambasting
2) I let the baker attack me while I was opening the door.... and then just used an arm-bar technique I learned during Dept. of Justice training.... I did not even HIT the baker..... lie #2
3) You stayed out of it.... that is nonsense...I was literally getting iot from both sides.... you on one side.... one almost diresctly opposite me...and a minor bit from my left......Edmund remained out.. and I forget if James chimed in or not
I did not say murderers deserve to get shot on sight..... what I said was along the lines of... if a mass murderer went from empty hands and then drew a weapon...he'd most likely get shot
I was attepting to kill a mass murderer who had already hunted down and murderer 69 people...... I was making sure she did not continue.....if Moradin decuided my actions to be wrongful, then I would deal with it...... there was no way I was letting her leave....and she had reached for a weapon and pulled it.... to win 69 1 on 1 combats ....... she is MUCH tougher than me.... so fight it out and deal with the consequences ..... I was giving YOU an out as DM...... to let me play it the way I felt it..... and I'd live with some punisment or quest.... letting you deal with it IN GAME.....
you didn't keep it in game...
2 damned times I even tried to end it.. by leaving the basement ..... physically moving my character OUT of the basement.. at that time I said "if she kills you guys, I won't interfere" and moved my character OUT... .. someone took another shot at me WERBALLY.... I responded.... so you (if I remember correctly))moved my character BACK into the middle of the damned room (it was not moved by me) .... I couldn't even get out of the room silently and let it end there.... the SECOND time my figure was actually brought back into the room.... THEN I REALLY had had enough.
It is funny that YOU mention the City Guard... it was me trying to get out of the room to WAIT for them.....and on the 3rd attempt to get out of the room I finally got out... and ended up asking the locals to help me get the gaurd
I took the 2 days in jail for the baker incident .... not a problem.... but when my character, IN GAME asked the gaurd for a deck of cards..... you weren't even happy with THAT. While in jail, I prayed to Moradin... in game... in jail ...it went right past you in game...totally missed ... then asked for the cards so my fellow adventurer who was sharing the cell could play cards together.......... you were miffed....
the party hadn't been together long? something like 2 gaming sessions at level 1, 2 at level 2, 2 at level 3 and that was session 5 at level 4
those token ideas came AFTER the lambasting. Since I was the one getting roasted...... and disagreeing with the treatment..... I decided to get other gamers input..... who SHOULD I have written to? My historic Wargaming group for DBA/DBM at Fanaticus?
And sorry.... did Edmund tell you he felt that I had been bullied by the group? Did Edmund tell you that he probably would not be playing any more? He told me.
Both you and Todd said what could/should/shouldn't have been done.... and do you remember WHICH player pulled a knife to back me in the bakery???? he got chewed out, too...... which is why I talked with him later.....
"savagely beating the baker " is funny........ I forgot the word arm bar ..... so I actually stood up, approached one of our group and asked to use his arm.....and put his arm up behind his back and used the nerve bundle inside the collarbone area to move him a bit........ NOT ONE BLOW by me......
my ain was to see the inner room...to get the door open.... I let him , the baker ..... meaning YOU, the DM... have a full attack. You described how his attack glanced off my armor....and my question was..... "did the door open?" ... repeated it 2 times.... got a yes.... THEN did the arm bar
"The group stood back horrified" is funny..... one of the group actually drew a dagger and supported me.
You make it sound like I was the only one who went to jail..... I wasn't... and.. I wasn't the only one who got jumped on later.... he got chewed-out-lectured for his doing that.....
since changing from archery based to melee based... if ANY comrade was going ANYWHERE into harms way... Sleestack, Edmund's character, even Todd's in the kitchen with the mass murderer......I was either right next to them... or within charging range with a weapon in my hand watching and listening.... I backed up my comrades.. never letting any of them worry about going 1 on 1 or getting ambushed....
your "When you decided to kill the BBEG...." is funny..... he did not support in the first attack.... he was not even in the room...when I felt I had to attack...so as to NOT let her attack first..... I attacked, he came up....others came in..... and THEN the talking started
another funny thing..... your own picture shows where I was after my attack......... forget the fact that I claim they were 3 squares further up the hall (away from the room)... even your picture shows me ALONE in the room upon completing my attack....
it shows me keeping her in the middle of the room.......
I started my turn against the left wall..OFF the grating on the floor.. (in the picture) .... activated my magic blade ... attacked.... action point... second attack
thank you for the pic, by the way...... it shows me making sure she could not kill me and block the door before anyone else got in...
my biggest fear was her being able to put me out of the fight.... and control the doorway...... it being a 5 foot hallway......she could take the group 1 on 1....... with a magician's spell helping our group's fighting....... there would be no flanking, no nothing..... and her magicweapons were VERY POWERFUL .... your emphasis
Interesting as it is to read this exchange, do you guys really think this is the best place and format to resolve your grievances?
Are you kidding? This is the perfect venue! Out in the wide world of the internet. Its a perfect example of the one sided stories that are notoriously lopsided. Though the OP has the right to his perspective, this makes a perfect reason to see the other side of the story.
MeScipioll, I hear you and see where you are coming from. The way things went down seemed unfair and you feel likethe DM did not notice your perspective. Alignment debates are often pointless...and others shouldn't debate your -out of game-.. In game debate...absolutely. If one wants debate it in character, and they want to look at alignments so deeply...they should look at their own first and foremost. Would a chaotic good character debate a lawful good character doing their thing? Or Lawful Neutral? Lawful Good as always been the alignment MOST put through the microscope, but truth is...one should focus on their OWN alignment first.
In truth, your actions as a player was off. NEVER put your hands on someone to debate a point. NEVER. I don't care if you are demonstrating a kiss. You just don't. One might be -ok- with it, but others will react internally to witnessing it. They may speak on it...they may not. But they will form opinions on your aggressiveness and frown on it. IMO, that interaction set up a whole lot of tension and drama.
if you don't get what I am saying then you simply just don't get it...just get one point on the matter. NEVER TOUCH ANOTHER PLAYER, EVEN IF THEY CONSENT.
Its a game. Even if you faced character death...its just a game. It does not reflect reality. Whether she killed 69 people, or 1000 armed samurai while blinded...she's only capable against group of 4th level characters. Why? Cause its just a game. If the DM threw a 10th level YAGSMAGGLE against your party, you have every reason to cry foul. He didn't. The number killed was just a red herring that means little. Why? Cause its just a game.
DM: You emphasized the red herring too deeply. Regardless of your point, you did make the character seem like a deep imminent threat capable of swift deadly harm against any single foe. He reacted as he would because of it. Even if he came across her sleeping in a chair, if he wanted to try to slit her throat cause of his "characters" fear, then so be it. Adjucate accordingly and say to yourself: "Damn, I tell a great story!"
To me...You made your case in every way, and I agree with most of your points. They are sensible. His character is a thug. Clearly. But hey, Lawful Good is thug by default, imo. LG interfere with others with the full belief that their own thinking is the greatest good, even if it means raining death through steel. LG will even slay evil innocents if it means compliance with all things good and lawful. LG would carpetbomb an evil town, including women and babies, to stamp out evil where ever it lies in pure righteous fury. Some LG may have a -moral- to protect innocents. But thats a choice. Not all LG have such morals. When you see players debate alignment...you should squash it and rule in favor of fun and fair play. Always. You seem sensible and rationale to me. This is nothing new to you. I bet you see it that way as well when you think on it.
I put my hands on the fellow player in game, at the time it was going on in the game..... NOT in the later arguing nonsense... we were asked by the dm what we were doing, so instead of saying it, since I forgot the correct word at the time, , I showed it.... IN GAME .... and when done, made sure the fellow player was unhurt by my action
this is my last post.......in this thread
Like I said before, there are LOTS of corrections I could make to the story. I've been generally leaving them alone because they're not really important, but I'll touch on this one.
As far as the "69 duels" thing goes, that's just MeScipioII mishearing what had been said, projecting his own image on the information the party got. She was more of a serial killer than a master assassin. All the victims save one were come upon unawares, while sleeping, or from behind. There had only been one stand-up fight, and that one left the killer badly wounded, providing the investigators with the link they needed to track the killer down. No-one else around the table had the same impression of deadly terror. The investigation part was the real heavy lifting, actually putting her down wouldn't have been too tough, and was a perfectly valid way to end the module. I had her slated as a level appropriate Elite, not even a Solo. I tried to make the "law into own hands" choice extra valid, with her promising to break out of prison and kill again if they let her face trial. I like tough choices, and I was looking forward to the inter-PC debate. I thought it could all be handled in character and in game.
Here is the thing that really creeps me out about all this. MeScipioII doen't really seem to get the difference between an In Game action and an Out of Game action.
When a guy around the table says "Trygvassen, you can't just kill a woman in cold blood!" - that is an In Game comment.
When you reply with "I was a cop for 3 years working for the Department of Justice! I know how it works!" - that is an Out of Game comment.
A couple more examples.
oh screw it.....
please read point 10 in my initial..... 69 murders ....... I'm not making it out to be her challenging each one..... but of the murders in the city.... only one was a clean assassination..... in another.... there was a confession coerced out of a victim...... the warforged put up a fight...... but the tattoos of 69 were carved off their bodies ... and, the victims were all on the defensive since they KNEW who was being targeted... their GROUP... so even alerted, they were defeated piecemeal
we were in game, butI forgot the word "arm bar" ... so I I asked the player next to me if I could borrow his arm for a second, to demonstrate what my character was doing at that time to the baker ... before you continue going on THIS point, how about you ask the person who lent me his arm.....you were asking the characters in the bakery what they were doing and the action took the place of words....but I even asked before laying a hand on him.... and said why I was borrowing his arm.. and asked to make sure he was good when I was done.... I didn't even take him to the floor
I had no problem with the NPC defending his place...... which is why on his attack, I concentrated on getting the door open..... and did not question doing 2 days in jail.....neither I, nor the person who drew his weapon to support me in the bakery complained about the jail time... ... I wasn't taking his attack as "personal" from you.... but you were playing the NPC ... not personal .. smile
There is in game and out of game...... yes .... and one of my in game attempts to put a stop to the situation that obviously was to continue... was to get my character OUT of the room.....why wouldn't you let it go at that point..... you had been on me.... Todd had been on mey... and I was looking to just leave the room......as I was moving my character to the first floor to wait for the gaurd.... another damned shot was fired at me (no idea if in or out of game... but more voices than just mine were a bit sharp by that point).... I replied..... and my character was put back in the room.... "if you are going to talk, you have to be in the room" per the DM .... you and I both know I can be defensive..... weren't you the Psych major?....... my actions were clearly trying to get the game to move forward.... and after the third effort, I was finally allowed out of the room... at which point.... I tried roll playing again...getting the City Watch.......but be honest-it was clear I was trying to get out of that mess then
about the level of opponents and their actual ability... I had no idea...... especially since in an earlier adventure I was faced by the leading monster,....... I had 0% chance to defeat the leader 1 on 1......he demolished my then-character....and came within 1 successful hit or 2 of TPK (the then DM admitted it only wasn't a tpk due to his help) ....... so with your description of this BBEG...... along with Rebecca and me losing to a warforged in an earlier game........ no way I was giving initiative to the killer in this game.... your words made the person look huge
Something we all forgot to mention, but was in my playing: My character..... was raised by others due to his village being destroyed..losing his family and friends.... which is 1 reason I always protected fellow adventuresif they were going out alone.... it also had a bearing on my attitude towards a person murdering and entire group/clan (whatever you want to call the group that all had the same tattoo)
My Cleric is a Battle Cleric ... with the Tactical Studies option .... and my readings of over 500+ books on battles and warfare.... and the 250 actually in my house ..... NEVER give the initiative to the enemy ...
from Alexander's Companions/Cavalry riding their horses almost to death during pursuit, to Forrest's "put the skeer on 'em" .. to Sun Tzu or Clausewitz .... gain the initiative and keep it... I'll play it the way I learned
Oda Nobunaga, one of my favorite samurai generals, was a master at controlling the enemies options and siezing the advantage and using it
Richard....if you are interested in reading books on warfare or battles, I'd be happy to lend. From Greek and Persian wars, Alexander, Greek States, Romans (wars with Carthage and later period for Caesar), Han Dynasty Chinese, Vikings (very limited), Parthians, Crusades (very limited), Samurai warfare, WWII ( all fronts, but limited on the Sino-Japanese front), Korean War...
Richard, I got jumped on by you (quietly....... about my attitude while in jail... I don't know if James even noticed...and he was between you and me)), and very openly about my wanting to attack the BBEG...and then doing so .... Todd jumped on me about both....and less quietly in both cases...........I'd get it from one side, then the other... literally ... if 2 (or more) people are taking shots.... taking turns at taking shots.... please forgive the receipient for losing track of "is this in game or out of game"
Richard.... if you'd care to continue this ... want to do it over coffee? We both know that if you reply here, I'll see it, want to reply, ..then you'll see that reply....... and it will continue.... just like it did when my character was not allowed to leave the room and to get on with the gaming .....going after the City Watch.....
Included in the conversation is also to be... how to stop the bullying..... in writing, you say I'm welcome to play, the hand of friendship is still extended... blah, blah, blah.......I say "blah, blah, blah" .. because my words on facebook about that topic....got totally ignored ..... you want the person who got bullied to just walk back into that situation without the "bullying" getting dealt with, too. (and it wasn't just me who felt the word "bullied" to be the truth.....another member of our group used that word in regards to what he and I received
you have my phone number
I've read all of this, and I still see massive difficulty distinguishing between in character and out of character action, or even between different out of character actions. Take your comments about another DM pushing the party towards TPK before throwing the fight. That wasn't me. I wasn't running. I didn't do that. You holding me responsible for it is crazy town. Compounded that with the fact that, from what I can see, your character is basically "super-Scipio", having read all the same books and having had all the same life experiences as you. The 250 book "tactics of war" library that both you and your character share is just one example. But back to moving forward.
On the subject of bullying. We've got some strong role players around the gaming table, and I can't really imagine a scenario where you have the ability to just run around doing whatever you want, without attracting in character comment and opposition from the other PCs and some NPCs. The most I could expect of any of them is to make it more clear that this stuff is in game, but frankly, I thought everything last time was pretty clearly in game too. Your character is going to keep getting bullied by other characters. I just don't see that stopping. In game, you can stand and take it, you can give like for like, or you can back down. What you can't do is take the whole thing out of game and make a giant mess of it.
If this doesn't fit your play style, and if the compartmentalization isn't something you feel comfortable with, maybe this isn't the best group for you. In which case, I wish you well with your other endeavors. You've mentioned before that you have quit other gaming groups when the players fail to back you up in character or have engaged in pvp.
As far as sitting down for coffee goes, I kinda feel like we need to hear back from the WotC community at large. After all, your big claim of aggrieved status last time we talked was "The people in the WotC forums say you are bullying me and need to beg for forgiveness!" I'm certainly not going to be willing to run my game with you constantly threatening me with the disapproval of the internet.
That said, there is a decent chance that the fine people here might be able to add something constructive to the discussion. I'm a touch on the other side of the storytelling debate from isereth (I love a good clue based mystery, as long as there are a surplus of clues.), but I have really enjoyed reading through the links in his signature. Lots of good material there, some of which I'm planning to use next session. And I've gleaned a fair bit of insight from some of the other people who have spoken up in this thread, especially on the subject of how to use alignment.
What does the grand forum of the internet think about this situation in general? Is it tenable? Is there a path you can see towards resolution? If so, what would you recommend as far as how we can sort this thing out? Or is it too far gone, with too many different personalities involved, and time to part company?
Ok, you choose to keep it here.
Let's take one example....
You state "When you decided to kill the BBEG in the basement, one of the PC backed you up through the first round."
That is incorrect.......you are trying to combine 2 rounds ...
I did my first round of combat ...attacked her. (attack, action point and attack).... the rest of the group made their move turn. (I'd even go as far to accept your picture is a snapshot of THAT.... because the next round of combat was my second and Sleestak's 1st.
Todd chimed in.... I believe it was here..... forget the exact words, but it was negative to my attack
round 2
My 2nd turn missed... both the standard attack and the sustain minor.... my standard was a 1 ...dropped my weapon, Sleestak had also joined combat and rolled a one..... (I actually forget who attacked first in this round....him or me.....but I think him, then me... I admit to ignoring Todd's unhappiness with the attack and doing my second round of attack)
it was at THAT time he, character Sleestak, came out with something in game..... along the lines of "I did so badly, attacking this woman..... must be against my god's wishes...... some words along that line ..
what I HOPE you'd do... is ask the person running Sleestak before replying
and... you keep ignoring the point that one of our group and I talked on Saturday.... and even he agreed to my being bullied....it IS NOT just this forum
he was unhappy with the bullying against himself and me and was not going play with the group. Why would he say that with me if he did not mean it???? I had already told him I would not be playing..... so if I was the main corncern to him....he already knew I'd not be there...
your "super scipio" is funny..... no idea how long or intensive/extensive the "Tactical Studies" are...... ..... but in real life I do have several friends who studied up to MA degree before finding work...and I know at least 2 that got their PHds before looking for their first job...... so....
you asked me to flesh out my character and his background..... extensive studies and destroyed family/village ...but I can't USE any of it?!?!
I'm tired of this..... bottom line Richard......I play this for fun..... having to question every act "will the group approve of this......" doesn't work..... I played my BACKGROUND
I tried THIS ingame "I have to attack.... if Moradin is very unhappy with me, I will accept whatever punishment or quest that he gives me" I did that ingame AT THAT TIME (after launching my first round attacks at BBEG.......and you got HOT when you heard that.....just like you got miffed when I asked for cards while sitting in jail earlier ... "you're not playing LG..... and since that is your attitude... blah, blah, bah...."
you could have let the combat go and given me punishment later or a quest or something..... or ...Moradin's divine wrath could have floored me IMMEDIATELY.... whatever .... I made it clear I felt my attack was justified...... and would answer to my GOD Moradin....therefor you....later... ...........something that is built into the game.......
can you actually put this into perspective
compare this tempest in a teacup to real life crap
Bottom line, I'm in the middle of dealing with a 3,000,000 NT lawsuit against someone (most of my retirement fund)...... ... the one and only day in Civil Court..... the judge admitted to not having read 500 pages of evidence that had been requested specifically BY the Civil Court..... and then awarded me just 100,000......almost nothing reclaimed ....... so I'm now dealing with Appeal Court......
the funny part ....after 1.5 years in Criminal Court.....the person was found guilty of harassment (multiple counts), 2 counts extortion, blackmail, defamation of character, 5 counts of lying about her marital status.......and almost 2,000,000 of the suit is provable monetary losses....... and the judge admits to not reading the case........(in frnt of the court recorder and the court appointed translator)
So I'm preparing the appeal... 1500 pages of emails and sms... more than 100 actually say" I am doing everything possible to destroy your school" and "I am doing everything possible to ruin your life and your gitrlfriend's life...."
and she did exactly that ... over 1.5 years.....
Even the Prosecutor of the Criminal Case was baffled at the Civil decision......
so, the last many weeks, I'm rereading (while organizing) papers about her attacking my school..and me remembering the day I had to colse my school since I had lost so much...15 years of my life... ... my then fiance/girlfriend having a nervous breakdown, the relationship finally dying...
Am I under a lot of stress, yes... pressure,... yes......playing games, especially role-playing games, is a wonderful way to relax, relieve stress..... recharge ...... and killing orcs is much better than doing what the BBEG did in your adventure...personal revenge.....
everyone has some kind of pressure/**** they are dealing with in real life......... so how about the game be dealt with as just that.... a game
this might not be the place to bring personal crap into the open.... but what the heck..... if the game can be brought back to its proper perspective/status, that of GAME......
so look.....I don't care what you write here.... I will ignore this thread...... if you want to just enjoy the game as a game......take a little seriousness out of the picture......you have my phoe number..... call me.....if you insist on "everythng is written in blood"...no fun .. don't call ..... as a person, you have some of the same negative traits I do......and I can recognize them...hense my earlier request for coffee or such....keeping it here...shoo, we both could go on
I'd rather be aiming at orcs and goblins rather than your neck......or teaching you a historic game....DBA... Han Chinese vs Hsiung Nu or Scipio Africanus vs Hannibal... or Alexander vs Persian Empire... Caesar vs Gauls .....or how about 1:6000 naval..Battle of Jutland
that is my second and last offer of peace....... the phone is in your hand...or not
I'm just gonna weigh in. Mostly because I love this thread.
I assumed mescipioll was being bullied by his middle school game club based on his posting style. Literally basing my opinion on nothing but posting tone, spelling and grammar, I've got to say it sounds like mescipioll is flipping out in the real world because he doesn't like the way the group is playing. It turns out you are both adults.
Go have an adult conversation in person. Adults don't yell at each other. They don't interrupt one another. They don't touch each other. They listen and try to understand one another. Go do that.
Adults absolutely do not yell at each other online. Pick up the phone. You obviously know one another.
----
Would Krusk the DM let mescipioll come back to a game after outbursts like the ones it sounds like you had, and the ones you obviously just had online? Not a chance. I'd also probably end association with you in general.
Would Krusk the player play in redline's game? No, it sounds way more heavy handed than I would want to play in. So I wouldn't. I'd have also stopped playing after session 1, or building characters once I found this out. That said he seems pretty reasonable
Would Krusk the player play in a game mescipioll was another player in? Probably not. He seems disruptive and prone to 1 outbursts and 2 internet bitching about people he won't talk to in real life. I'd probably talk to the group and say "This dude is terrible, can we ask him to leave?" and if people said "No he is my bestest bro" I'd head out.
Krusk the online person - Generally assumes everyone online is 13 until they say otherwise.
Krusk...you are 100%. Love what you stated. Can't agree more. 'Nuff said.
Personally, I like what Redline is doing, and so...we celebrate differences. He also seems reasonable.
mescipioll and redline...you both have said your peace in many ways. Meet and have coffee and:
1. Find areas you both agree. Note them on a sheet of paper.
2. On the area you disagree, each man has his own sheet of paper, jot it down. When you have exhausted all of it...burn that piece of paper if you choose to agree to disagree. If your grievance is so deep that you feel you must have the other to agree, but the other cannot, then don't burn it. Harbor it and move on. Say adios and farewell.
Beyond all this, it is "fixable" beyond having to "seperate":
1. Mescipioll, you have thin skin. You are going through hell. I, too, know what hell tastes like, let alone feels. There is no easy way to roll with the punch and -often- it bubbles out into every damn facet of my life despite best intentions. You are a man of best intentions, but you don't back down. If you want to relax, then you must learn to let go and back down. You stay honest to yourself and you are willing to concede and humble out. +1 points of respect on that. Seriously.
2. Redline, recognize the man is under duress constantly. You know this, it seems, but bear with him and understand. He's not going to back down sometimes. When he won't...allow a check of some kind. For instance, in the case of him trying barge thru a barkeep. You did what was logical. Introduce randomness in that situation. Allow Mescipioll to make an intimidate check, or an insight check. Or whatever. If he rolls his own outcome, he will feel success and be more apt to let go. Trust. He loves your game clearly. His bitching was purely because he wants to see affirmation and success in some small venue when life is serving him a cold dish of poo. We all feel that way.
3. IN game and out of game. I know precious few in 30 years of gaming who can completely seperate the two. Its something that folks have to learn...but most do not want to. They play characters the opposite of themselves, or they play to let out aggression, or try out ideals and notions. True scoundrels will play a LG character just to see what its like to be virtuous...and fail like its an epic. (Thats me!) . I can't tell you how many times I see a guy play a female character to everyones guffaw. Yet the truth is...in some small way...he's playing out the definitions of sexuality in a safe environment. They just want to explore. Its healthy. Those who deny this are 99% in denial. Everyone in the group must to grow up and recognize that all of them are playing in such a way in some large or small way. Hopefully then they can forgive and have real insight on others roleplay with out it spilling to badly in game and/or out of game. As DM, try to help that maturity to grow. Compliment the efforts of everyone to play a mature game.
4. Consider introing player feedback for good role play that converts into game tangibles. if I have time, I'll post what i do in my game. I allow clean positive feedback each game that rewards top notch/ teamwork oriented roleplaying with XP. I don't allow grousing. Period.
5. If you've actually read this far. Kudos. Consider letting bygones be bygones. Never bring it up the past junk again. Agree to move forward.
6. mescipiol....don't put your hands on another player. if one of the guys wanted to demonstrate how they kiss a bar wench, would you be willing to give a full throat go? if not...then don't touch any one. if you say yes...I know a great role play game you should try out called Truth or Dare. It involves a bottle, a closet and an 8 seconds timer.
I'll second the no-touchies - even with consent.
But all in all this reads like a bad overreaction to bad/heavy-handed DM-ing.
Kind of 50/50, IMO. DM too much pushing on how it "should" play. Player to quickly aggrieved.
Possibly too intense emotionally for all involved and should switch to something less emotionally complex and more black & white. Dungeon crawls, bounty hunts, fetch quests.
Ok, some good material here folks. Thanks for the replies. There's some real food for thought in there, and I appreciate the suggestions.
I've got a few more questions, especially in response to the final comments of Bawylie, but first, a bit of backstory.
The gaming group came together a few months ago, with a few key ideas as core concepts. Idea number 1 was that we would have a rotating GM chair, with each GM running for a few months. Rules, level, setting, mood, plot-lines, style, etc all left entirely up to the guy behind the screen. This is partly out of a desire for an idea exchange on how to run a game, for people to be exposed to different running styles. It's also partly an acknowledgement on how tough it is to do all the prep work to run a game, and that you should be running something that you enjoy. A chance for each of us to share some of what we think to be the best parts of DnD, and roleplaying games in general. The only vague concession to continuity was the idea that the different mini-campaigns might occur in different regions of the same world, across potentially vast stretches of time. There has also been this somewhat vague notion that the PCs might somehow contribute meaningfully to the history of the world, and that our actions might shape the world over time.
Our first DM started us out at 1st level, and ran a sandbox/slapstick/pun driven/NPC focused story arc where the PCs needed to gather together powerful NPC heroes and maneuver them towards defeating other powerful NPC mutated orcs in massive hundred character battles, before eventually falling through a magic portal to a spaceship orbiting the planet, where we were imbued with mutagenic super powers which let us lead a legendary wizard to the central super-orc cloning chamber of the alien vessel, where a burst of his magical power could disable the vessel, setting back the machinations of the terror from outer space. The homebrew towns were named after jokes from cricket, the allied NPCs that made the adventures possible were modeled and named after real life friends of ours, the fights were universally 10 CLs too high for us, and the whole affair made us feel totally free to do whatever we wanted.
There were things I didn't like, and things I did (fantastic sandboxing, incredible use of battle terrain, great accents, distinct characters, great hand drawn maps, fun stuff with grids and dungeon exploring, buckets and buckets of laughs, the list goes on.) I left the sessions feeling very grateful to the previous DM, having seen a running style I'd never seen before, having had fun, and really just appreciating all the work he put into it. Mescipioll had a couple of meltdowns during the run. Once when a boat we were on sunk and he was forced to swim to shore, and again when his LG Archer Dwarf of Moradin died during one of our(comparatively) tougher encounters. But the meltdowns were quite minor compared to his most recent one, and he insisted that we just move on, so we did.
It came up to be my turn in the big chair, and I've taken things in a different direction. I'm running my mini-campaign a couple dozen years later, and set entirely in one sprawling metropolis, with the PCs as a private investigators. Adventures are serialized, episodic, with recurring NPCs, but the spotlight very much on the PCs. I'm borrowing heavily from the Eberron Campaign Setting in general theme and style, and the Sharn: City of Towers book in particular. My world building runs a touch darker, and we've spent the first couple of modules working through social problems, poverty, injustice, racism, exploitation, and revenge while exploring the city district by district. The PCs are imperfect, complex people in an imperfect, complicated world, trying to make the best out of morally gray situations, film noir style. We've had long chats about tone, and I think everyone is pretty much on the same page as far as what's going down. I've sat down with just about all of the PCs for at least an hour or two working through character histories and motivation, with the exception of mescipioll, who wanted to play the nephew of his previous character, this current iteration a LG Fighter Dwarf of Moradin rather than an archer. Recently he's introduced a new character, a LG Cleric Dwarf of Moradin, and he's got a stockpile of at least 6 other pre-built characters that are also LG dwarves of Moradin. My understanding is that it's the only thing he enjoys playing. Nothing wrong with that, though I sometimes wish there was more depth, but having fun is the most important part, and if that's what rows his boat, he's welcome to it.
I don't have any "right answer" outcomes for my modules. I have the scenario, some very fleshed out NPCs with accompanying stats and art assets, perhaps a few scripted events in specific time frames, some scenes in mind, and half a dozen possible end states penciled in, with room for more. They're a far cry from dungeon crawls, but they're not quite sandboxes either. I put a lot of the heavy lifting on the players. They're frequently put in positions where they have to make difficult choices, and I try to give them time to talk it out among themselves. I'm big on saying yes to whatever they propose, with varying levels of new complications after the fact. I'm a big fan of Mouseguard for that part of the game. I'm not big on betrayal, have a strict rule against outright evil characters, and very much want the PCs to act with teamwork, but they should get there through in character discussion and consensus building, and those intense conversations are half the fun of the game. I love role playing and choices. Sly Flourish recently updated an article on providing real choices that really cuts to the heart of one of my favorite topics. I like it so much I've just added it to my sig.
With the exception of mescipioll's recent explosions, the modules have been extremely well received. I've had my shortcomings, and have had to improv a fair bit when the PCs forge ahead into uncharted territory, but I've gotten some great feedback, am trying new things based on that feedback, and generally feel like I'm running a better game with each passing week. The module I ran while mescipioll was sitting out has been widely received as the best that anyone's been on in years, and I can't recall a time in recent memory where I've felt more impressed and grateful for some incredible PC roleplay. Everyone really brought their A game, and it was an honor to sit around the table with them.
That brings me to this:
Possibly too intense emotionally for all involved and should switch to something less emotionally complex and more black & white. Dungeon crawls, bounty hunts, fetch quests.
I can't say what you should do. I'll tell you what I do.
I run about 5 groups. But one of them is my main group. The other 4 meet monthly or less so they're continuous campaigns but without a lot of details or plot twists that people forget in a month's time.
The main group meets 2-4 times per month. I run it like TV. We'll do a "season" of a particular campaign that lasts 6 sessions. The season has 1 theme, and one over-arching goal. Midway through, there's a big twist or change of pacing. I aim for big ends, but that's not always in my control. After that season, we switch to a new GAME altogether (not necessarily D&D, even) with a new campaign. Sometimes I'll invite a guest DM for a season.
Heres what this gets me. Continuity - 6 sessions is enough to get a good story. Brevity - 6 sessions isn't so long that details wash away. You never have to remember minute details from a prior season in order to play this season. Room - 6 sessions allows plenty of space for story, exploration, combat, RP, and whatever else. End - No obligation to ask "what's next?" In fact, we're moving to a different game, and the next season of this game may be unrelated to the current season. That is "Pirates: Season 2" need not have any relationship to "Pirates: Season 1."
You guys have rotating DMs, so you have a good foundation here. But as a DM, you could give thought to the amount of space in your game. I like Sharn. When I've run Sharn, I've cribbed adventures from Batman: The Animated Series. The feel is right and the writing is the best in short-form I've ever seen. (Leave aside it's other merits or I'll gush for pages). But I run it on a single theme (I see you do many themes and moral conundrums). And I run it with an end in sight. This changes my thinking about pacing and what comes next.
I have probably 20-30 players all told (depending on various stuff). They're not all the same. I don't have 1 odd-man out. I have 20-30. I know them. I learn them. And I make sure each gets something out of the session. When it's not a given player's "scene," and another jumps in or elbows in, I hold up a hand at that player while keeping my attention on the spotlight player. At a break in action, I'll change focus and see what they want. But my players have come to recognize these informal "turns." It seems rude to hear it described like this, I guess, but it's my table-management and I never mean disrespect.
IMO, there's very few cases where someone is a bad "fit." I say this with some experience. I run a game for a group of disabled players. There's 3-4 of them. One has no arms, one is mentally 14-15 (despite being in his 60s), 2 autistics. Etc. The game takes different skills to run. Different patience & management.
A bad fit is someone who isn't there to play. Everything else, I assume is good faith (even if it blows up from time to time).
I also have a player who plays LG Dwarves only (sometimes re skinned). It's his wheelhouse. That's fine.
So if you want advice, and you do, I suggest paying attention to your spotlighting. Give each player - every player - something they enjoy. It doesn't require compromising your integrity, story, or vision. It just requires thought and care. If you get someone elbowing in, politely explain it's someone else's turn and you'll get to them in a second. If the behavior is repeated, take them aside and explain the spotlighting. "I know it isn't realistic, but I want every player to have a moment where they're the center of the game. When it's someone else's moment, I want you to understand that and maybe play a support role instead of a lead. When it's your scene, you get the lead and I expect the others to play support. Is that cool?"
sometimes a scene is shared. Etc.
In the case where you had the guy and the murderer alone, that was his scene (or so it seemed to me, by reading all that's written here). If you take a spotlight, that's felt and it sucks. It appears you were more invested in the plot than the characters' decisions. If be careful about that because it detracts from the experience of playing. The audience in D&D isn't captive, it's participatory. When you remove participation or meaning, the audience experience changes.
So let me ask you this: How would you have DM-Ed that same scene to allow the player his agency? Is there a way to do it without "ruining" the plot? (I can see like 4 ways, but I'd like you to step back an put a critical eye on it yourself).
Last question: Do you have an agenda? A set of DM priorities, I mean. If not, think about one. Dungeon World's is nice if you haven't got one of your own, but over time you should have your own.
There's a lot to chat and think about there, but I've got to head to bed. I'll take a crack at it in the morning. One note that I'd add in passing is that I had 0 investment in the BBEG living through that basement encounter. The thing I was invested in was in making whatever happened an in character group decision. The group as a whole was going to confront the killer, it's just that the trigger happy player was the first across the threshold. After the surprise round, everyone was in melee for the first full round of combat, and was available to discuss continuing or stopping the attack in character. That was the spotlight in my mind, on the group discussion as a whole.
Sitting opposite from the "surprise attack is tactically correct" dwarf was a PC changeling from the same region as the deranged killer, desperate to reconnect with lost family ties. Next to him was a shell-shocked paladin of the undying court, having had his fill of death in the war and seeking to prevent it whenever possible. The next chair at the table was a bloodthirsty dragonborn worshiper of the god of battle, eager to test his mettle against a worthy foe. Last at the table was an inexperienced blacksmith, fresh out of his farming community, wide eyed and impressionable, the same one who backed up the dwarf in the assault on the baker. A cast of characters absolutely ripe for a heartfelt discussion on the merits of the kill. I didn't care what decision they made, as long as each of them had the opportunity to speak up as their characters in the context of the situation.
And I didn't have to apply any out of game pressure to make that discussion happen, other than perhaps having her choose not to counterattack when she got jumped. Look at the picture I linked above. Everyone was right next to each other when they cornered her. When mescipioll started swinging he got a wave of completely in character outcries from the paladin and the other changeling, an eager "hell yeah" from the headhunter, and total paralysis from the blacksmith. I let the scene drag out as the attacks subsided after a round, and the talking kept getting more and more heated.
There were a lot of great ideas being thrown around in character.
"Take her alive, we have all the evidence we need to put her behind bars!"
"Let her go, the people she is killing deserve it."
"Kill her, she's too dangerous to face trial."
"No, society is based on laws, if we kill her in this basement, we are no better than her."
"We can say it was self defense, she was going for a weapon!"
"Lock her up, she's a danger to society."
"Let her fight her last 3 victims, but in a stand up fight, face to face, gladiator style."
"She's insane, she needs mental help, not execution."
"We should let her kill herself if she wants to, then she would be with her murdered child."
and on and on
I can see now that mescipioll thought that he was being berated out of game for his surprise attack, when not a word had been said that wasn't an in character discussion. I was shocked and disappointed when mescipioll took the whole discussion out of character. It damaged an otherwise great scene. Anyway, the point I was trying to make, and perhaps this is just a small correction to an otherwise very detailed post, is that it wasn't important what happened to the villain. She was done the moment she was cornered. The power of choice was completely in PC hands at that stage.
RedlineLife wrote:
A thought: If NPC chooses not to counter-attack, (effectively not defending herself), how did she live through ANY attack?