That said, does anybody have any tips as to how a Lawful (G, N or E) rogue would behave? They seem pretty chaotic by nature, but lawfulness could be interesting.
A lawful rogue probably wouldn't be as honest or honorable as a lawful monk or samurai, and certainly not a paladin/most paladins. He might tell what crimes he did if faced with it, though (hey, there's always the chance they'll lessen the penalty), and he might be very loyal to friends and family (perhaps even why he got into the trade).
Rogues do not necessarily have to be thieves or backstabbing bastards. It's just that that stereotype fits their abilities and that's the reason why people play them that way a lot.
That said, does anybody have any tips as to how a Lawful (G, N or E) rogue would behave?
Like any other lawful character. No, really.
They seem pretty chaotic by nature, but lawfulness could be interesting.
That's a common misconception that stems from their thief stereotype. Flavor is always mutable, and if you strip away the stereotypical flavor, you're left with a skilled, mobile, lightly armored warrior whose fighting style emphasizes carefully placed hits. Nothing about the actual, functioning units of the class imply or enforce any alignment.
So, if you wanted, you could play your rogue so lawful, the monk and paladin would start to question themselves, and it would not affect how the class functions.
edit: i dislike the pigeonholing of rogues into the 'thief' type. really it represents any battle character who wins by finesse and precision.
also, ninja'd
You could be:
A trained locksmith-turned-adventurer who uses his expertise for the greater good.
An archaeologist who pursues ancient relics (often locked away and trapped) to bring to museums.
Complete Scoundrel says, and I'm paraphrasing (barely): Lawful Good scoundrels have their own code of honor. They have good intentions but aren't above breaking minor rules that get in the way of the greater good. They are likely to have far-reaching plans.
Examples the books gives are: Batman, Dick Tracey and Indiana Jones. I'm not too sure I agree with all of that, but that's what it says.
Scoundrel is not necessarily "Rogue" but not necessarily not a Rogue.
You could take any personality and just say that the person found training as a Rogue to be most beneficial for his needs.
There are prestige classes for Rogues who serve a church, and do the dirty work that can't be done in the open, like assassinating evil cult leaders or stealing relics from them. It's for the greater good after all :P
That said, does anybody have any tips as to how a Lawful (G, N or E) rogue would behave?
Don't break any laws for personal gain and you should be fine.
Rogues do not necessarily have to be thieves or backstabbing bastards. It's just that that stereotype fits their abilities and that's the reason why people play them that way a lot.
M-bark hit the nail right on the head. Back in the days of AD&D's First Edition, the class most folks now call "rogue" was called "thief". 2nd Edition tweaked this a bit by lumping bards and thieves together into a general category called "rogue", but AD&D 2nd did this for ALL classes. (Don't get me started on that...) With D&D 3rd Edition, "rogue" became a class all its own. Most alignment (and all racial) restrictions on classes were removed, but the word "rogue" still carries the connotation of the lawless scoundrel.
Fireclave's comments on rogues are quite accurate. The stereotypical rogue is non-lawful in nature, and commonly not-Good as well. However, there's no good reason to stick to stereotype if you have another concept in mind. Large - or at least successful - thieves' guilds have Lawful Evil rogues running things, and would have a large portion of their membership following the Lawful Evil alignment as well. (Think The Godfather or The Sopranos here.) A lawful neutral rogue might be a military scout specializing in covert operations. A lawful good rogue could also fall into the military scout role. She could also be a member of the Watch who uses her skills to infiltrate and gain evidence. Keep in mind here that most fantasy societies do NOT adhere to modern standards for law enforcement. Special permission (in the form of a warrant signed by a judge) to search a person or property is not generally required under a feudal monarchy... In fact, most monarchs would (and historically did) find such limits to their authority laughable.
You could very easily have a guard as a rogue: spot, listen, gather information, intimidate, diplomocy, disable device. None of these seems out of place for a guard. A special forces person fits even better with hide, move silently, lockpicking and sneak attack all fitting thematicly.
Don't break any laws for personal gain and you should be fine.
Actually, Lawful Evil rogues break laws for personal gain on a regular basis. They also manipulate laws to their benefit while holding others to a literal interpretation of the letter of those same laws. Harsh enforcement of those same laws or rules as they apply to others is also a hallmark of Lawful Evil. ("Yeah, I whacked him. I had no choice; he disrespected me.")
Many Lawful Good rogues would fall into military or law enforcement roles, though they could conceivably be Robin Hood types who break the unjust laws of the Lawful Evil Prince John types while leading a band of rebels in a guerrilla campaign. In all cases, you see LG rogues using stealth and skill to achieve their goals. A LG rogue would likely view keeping any more than the bare minimum for himself as abhorrent, preferring instead to use most of the spoils to further his cause and care for his people. (Contrast this with a Chaotic Good rogue in the same situation. Odds are he'd have no problem padding his own pockets while overthrowing the evil prince.)
Lawful Neutral is a bit tougher. Ethically (i.e., the Lawful component) they're inclined to follow "rules", are generally self-disciplined, and see more value in order than they do in chaos. "Rules", however, is the sticky part. Lawful does not mean the character has some mystical compulsion to always follow the laws of the land. Lawful characters are often inclined to follow such laws, but observation of local law is not a requirement. His Law may be some higher purpose, or simply following a personal code of conduct. Morally (i.e, Neutral) he's quite ambivalent. Good and Evil aren't things he's overly concerned about.
A LN rogue might enjoy the heist for its own sake. This sort of rogue could come across as quite mercenary. He can be hired to steal just about anything, from anyone, for any reason, because to him it's not about the actual target. Creation of the perfect plan, and the perfect execution of that plan, is the goal. Whatever the plan does - be it taking a serf's worthless wooden leg or the Emperor's priceless staff of office - is at best a very distant second to the plan itself. Such skill doesn't come cheap, but this sort of rogue may reduce or waive his standard fee for the shot at a once-in-a-lifetime heist.
LG = La resistance. I am an honourable and pure of heart man fighting a tyrranical regime. I want to return to the old days of the glorious *insert state*. But right now, I am snapping necks, backstabbing and blowing up ammo depots, FOR THE KING!
LN = Spy. I may not be nice but I am the master of stealth and intruige, I seduce women, steal plans, backstab and even assassinate, FOR THE KING!
LE = Maffioso. I am the Maffia boss, I am a living steriotype generated by both good and bad films. I am the master of crime, and got here by blackmail, theft and more than a little stabbing. Cross me if you dare. FOR MY BANK BALANCE!
Never steal from another member of the guild.
Never perform another thief’s assigned task or “steal” jobs from another thief.
Never let your own jobs interfere with the guild’s jobs.
Don’t attract attention to the guild, especially not the attention of the town fathers.
10% of the take from your jobs goes to the guild; you keep the rest.
100% of the take from guild-assigned thefts goes to the guild, and maybe you get a taste.
Don’t kill anyone in the commission of a job, except in self-defense. It attracts too much attention.
Special Forces or Covert Ops type soldiers. Snake from Metal Gear Solid, or Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell would both be Lawful Good rogues IMO. Saving the world one stealth kill (or disable, since the games actually reward you more for NOT killing) at a time.
Not everyone who is shot in the head dies, does that count?
A charismatic rogue I would, and have, play as using the truth to work against his enemies. I like this one mainly as LE. Saying to what extent you will follow and execute your plans and help only to the extent you prescribe. When asked a question tell the truth but half-truths.
Trapfinding or searching rogue? Practice the routines needed to do a specific task over and over. Keep tools tidy and in order.
Above all remember lawful (alignment) doesn't mean that you have to be Super lawful.
Actually, formal combat training CAN be part of the backstory of a Rogue, especially a lawful one.
Not to the point of doing sword drill four hours a day, every day. There's a reason why Fighters have a high BAB - a particular skill at getting past someone's defenses and sticking the blade in.
Not to the point of doing sword drill four hours a day, every day. There's a reason why Fighters have a high BAB - a particular skill at getting past someone's defenses and sticking the blade in.
Yeah. Instead, rogues spend four hours a day, every day, learning about anatomy and drilling how to best strike and sever vital points. There's a reason why Rogues have a sneak attack - a particular skill of striking someone's weak points for maximum damage.
That said, does anybody have any tips as to how a Lawful (G, N or E) rogue would behave? They seem pretty chaotic by nature, but lawfulness could be interesting.
Well Rogue is just a label not an actual description and it could include a wide variety of different characters, not just a petty theif, some examples are Petty Theif, Spy, Diplomat, Assassin, Scout, Detective.
Simply look at the long list of skills available to the Rogue class, and decide what character concept could fit into the skills, Rogues get plenty of skills and Skill Points, so customizing their selection is easy. for example:
Constabulary (detective) sould use Search, Spot, Bluff, Move Silently, Open Lock, Listen, Intimidate, Gather Information Etc
Dimplomat: Appraise, Bluff, Intimidate, Perform, Listen, Spot, Search, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Knowledge skills, Languages, Decipher Script, etc
If you want your Rogue to be Lawful, then you only need to change the name to be better suited to your concept, remember that Rogue is only a name, Perhaps your "Rogue" is a Scout a Military Unit or an order of Paladins or a Diplomat for a lawful Kingdom, or part of the town guard that investigates crimes and criminal guilds.
In short you don't have to be a criminal of a shadey character to be a rogue. You can in fact be Lawful and Honest, even to a degree that would put a Paladin to shame.
Now, rogue can be a lot besides that. A dungeon delver, a lock smith, a trapsmith, a stealthy spy, a dashing fencer, etc.
If he's good, he should be good to people, and try to do no harm to other good/neutral people. This is not hard. He does not need to be nice (a 'good' person can be a total a$$ but won't hurt people)
If he is lawful, he either has a respect for law and order, or a respect and strong sense of discipline, or something similar.
-He could have a code of conduct he always follows (always tithing his treasure, never stealing, etc)
-He could refuse to break laws of good/neutral kingdoms (probably won't recognize the laws of an evil kingdom)
-He could have a high sense of honor (may sneak around to spy, but will announce himself before attacking so his opponents are prepared. Once in combat, he can still sneak attack (just call it something like "critical stike" or something but mechanically the same)
-Highly religious, and will not touch treasure of an diety/cult (even if evil)
The "honorable swashbuckler" type is often LG--the type who believes in fairness and decency, would never lie/cheat/steal/etc., will actually put himself at a disadvantage for honor's sake... That kind of thing.
A Lawful Good rogue is the sort of person you would find on a SWAT team.
+1 Flameburst Vorpal Speed
A Lawful Good rogue is the sort of person you would find on a SWAT team.
Actually, SWAT teams strike me as more the domain of fighters, paladins, crusaders, and other more heavy types. Rogues actually might be better as ordinary cops.
In general, I think that the term "rogue" was a rather poor choice for the class it represents in D&D. For one thing, it implies things that aren't particularly part of the rogue class (untrustworthiness, lawlessness, etc), but even worse, it doesn't imply any of the things that are part of the rogue class (highly skilled, particularly in reconaissance, stealth, etc, special sneak attack abilities). If the rogue weren't already part of D&D, but I were asked to design the "rogue" class given only the name, I'd probably come up with some sort of rough-and-tumble combatant with warrior base attack bonus, 2 + int or 4 + int skill points, bonuses to using improvised weapons, and a special intimidation bonus: I picture a tattooed guy who goes around in a leather jacket beating people with a tire iron or crowbar or something. That's not what everyone would come up with, of course, but there's nothing in the word in non-D&D English pointing to the role the D&D rogue actually occupies.
A Lawful rogue plans out his job. Has a set discipline in how he is going to perform it and choses his tools specifically to the task. He's careful and has a escape plan should things go foul. He succeeds because of good hard planning.
A Chaotic Rogue may choose a target by opportunity and keeps a variety of tools for all cases. He reacts to situations as they come and is a risk taker. Maybe it didn't go the way he hoped but he succeeds thanks to luck and skill.
A Good Rogue may choose targets that are exploitive to others like a corrupt Lord who deserves some humble pie or a treasury that just has "too much money". Avoids killing innocents and stealing from the poor as it makes no real sense. Maybe spreads the wealth later on to the unfortunate. He succeeds because he chooses targets that are victimizers or oppressors who deserve it.
An evil rogue is out for himself and cares not for the weak and helpless. All are valid targets. Those who get in the way are legitimate kills if need be. What he steals now becomes his and will protect it by any means necessary. He succeeds because he is not crippled by sentimentality and knows it's a "dog eat dog" world.