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Leadership Question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
manijin
Aug 11, 2009 19:29:05 Alright, I have a question for you guys, and would love any opinions you care to offer as well.

(D&D Version 3.5)

Alright. I'm going to be playing a sea-faring campaign pretty soon. As such, I've been considering taking the Leadership feat ASAP, in order to have my own crew to man a ship.

Now, my understanding of leadership is that you gain a cohort and followers depending on your Leadership score. My DM, however, seems to be under the impression that you may either gain a cohort OR gain followers, but not both. Is this the case, or am I right in saying that I gain both?

To complicate things more, the DM said that I could have both, but only if I take a -2 penalty to my leadership score because the other sailors would be "jealous" of favoritism shown towards the cohort, which he sees as having a "favored companion". Is there any evidence to support this?

Now, I'm trying to be as nice as I can be. I'm more than a little annoyed by this situation, but if I have enough people agree with my DM's analysis of the feat, I'll go ahead and admit I was wrong. Thanks, all.
#2
nightson
Aug 11, 2009 19:38:17 There's nothing by RAW that says you don't attract both a cohort and followers.
#3
doomsought
Aug 11, 2009 19:56:45 RAW is both.
one or the other is in D20 modern, but there is a different feat for each.
#4
revan54115110
Aug 11, 2009 21:06:27 well when in dought sometimes just talking to the DM in private if you are don't under stand what he is up to but acoding to the raw he is out in left feild
#5
entropy_judge
Aug 11, 2009 21:16:42
To complicate things more, the DM said that I could have both, but only if I take a -2 penalty to my leadership score because the other sailors would be "jealous" of favoritism shown towards the cohort, which he sees as having a "favored companion". Is there any evidence to support this?

The cohort is a real person - the followers are non-levelling NPCs. As for your bigger question (either or both):
Having this feat enables the character to attract loyal companions and devoted followers, subordinates who assist her. See the table below for what sort of cohort and how many followers the character can recruit.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership
#6
jgumbyrx
Aug 13, 2009 0:35:58 While Leadership does give you both a cohort and followers, I can't really blame the DM for wanting to nerf the most powerful feat in the frickin' game.

A mitigating factor I use for leadership in my games is that the cohort must have all of his levels be NPC-class levels; if it has any PC-class levels, I impose a +2LA.

but that's just my 2 cp
#7
Darkwolf_Bloodsbane
Aug 13, 2009 11:58:34
While Leadership does give you both a cohort and followers, I can't really blame the DM for wanting to nerf the most powerful feat in the frickin' game.

A mitigating factor I use for leadership in my games is that the cohort must have all of his levels be NPC-class levels; if it has any PC-class levels, I impose a +2LA.

but that's just my 2 cp

But the discussion is the Leadership feat, not Epic Spellcasting, AKA "I win D&D."

So try to stay on topic, 'kay?:D
#8
jgumbyrx
Aug 13, 2009 12:53:00
But the discussion is the Leadership feat, not Epic Spellcasting, AKA "I win D&D."

So try to stay on topic, 'kay?:D

really? are you f'n kidding me?

okay, let me re-phrase that: ... the most powerful non-epic feat in the game.

there, are you happy now?
#9
Darkwolf_Bloodsbane
Aug 14, 2009 15:56:26
really? are you f'n kidding me?

okay, let me re-phrase that: ... the most powerful non-epic feat in the game.

there, are you happy now?

Some people have no sense of humor.
#10
jgumbyrx
Aug 14, 2009 23:08:40
Some people have no sense of humor.

sorry.
was on one too many threads that devolved in to stupidness -- it can be difficult sometimes to tell what people really mean.
#11
Orcboss
Aug 15, 2009 0:47:14
Alright. I'm going to be playing a sea-faring campaign pretty soon. As such, I've been considering taking the Leadership feat ASAP, in order to have my own crew to man a ship.

If all you want is a crew for the ship, how about this? The followers and cohort don't actually "adventure" with you, they just run the ship. The followers belong to the cohort and he is captain or first mate or whatever of your ship. If they're not swinging swords on your behalf (apart from defending the ship) having both isn't really that powerful, its just a plot device.
#12
jgumbyrx
Aug 15, 2009 9:12:42
If all you want is a crew for the ship, how about this? The followers and cohort don't actually "adventure" with you, they just run the ship. The followers belong to the cohort and he is captain or first mate or whatever of your ship. If they're not swinging swords on your behalf (apart from defending the ship) having both isn't really that powerful, its just a plot device.

me likes. +1
#13
i_roll_ones
Aug 15, 2009 12:45:11 I agree. Sure, it's powerful, but it keeps the plot going, and glossing over the boring bits of owning a ship(swabbing decks) while allowing the party to get to the fun parts. If the NPCs are just Experts and don't do much, it shouldn't ruin the party.

However, do inform your DM on the correct version. Yeah, he is the DM, but he should understand what the rules really say, otherwise this leads to a bad precedent. What the DM says goes, unless he's trying to rewrite reality and change what is written.

That and the favoritism excuse seems weak. You pay more attention to your lieutenant, of course, he's an officer. If the minions don't like that, they need a new career. This is a military, not a tea party.
#14
chava
Aug 15, 2009 15:03:31
If all you want is a crew for the ship, how about this? The followers and cohort don't actually "adventure" with you, they just run the ship. The followers belong to the cohort and he is captain or first mate or whatever of your ship. If they're not swinging swords on your behalf (apart from defending the ship) having both isn't really that powerful, its just a plot device.

Oddly enough, in a high level game that my friend is running, he required the girl who wanted to play a pirate captain to take the Leadership feat to get her crew. And then another of us needed to take it to represent the people in our home port.

Unless, we wanted her crew to turn on us in the first adventure....

Note - neither our cohorts nor or followers adventure with us. (The town cohort and followers stay in the home port and take care of the home front... Which is good since we can easily be gone for a year or two. Seafaring world, teleport limited to 1-mile safe limit) We took the feats for the purpose of plot device.

And except for when the DM forgets that, it's great fun.

Edit: For the OP - however this is dpt on what level you are. For example in our game our characters started out as 13th level and our adventuring group has worked together on and off for 10 years. If you are getting Leadership when you first qualify for it, you definitely have your cohort, but you won't have enough followers for your entire crew to be followers. In the stop-gap you'll have to talk about the need to hire people with your dm, etc. Additionally, whilst your crew is followers and doesn't need anything technically, you still might want to consider the need to pay them, etc.
#15
Orcboss
Aug 15, 2009 15:48:40
However, do inform your DM on the correct version. Yeah, he is the DM, but he should understand what the rules really say, otherwise this leads to a bad precedent. What the DM says goes, unless he's trying to rewrite reality and change what is written.

Ya, when I suggested that, it was just an idea for a mutually acceptable bargain. I don't agree with the OP's DM on Leadership.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 manijin Aug 11, 2009 19:29:05	Alright, I have a question for you guys, and would love any opinions you care to offer as well. (D&D Version 3.5) Alright. I'm going to be playing a sea-faring campaign pretty soon. As such, I've been considering taking the Leadership feat ASAP, in order to have my own crew to man a ship. Now, my understanding of leadership is that you gain a cohort and followers depending on your Leadership score. My DM, however, seems to be under the impression that you may either gain a cohort OR gain followers, but not both. Is this the case, or am I right in saying that I gain both? To complicate things more, the DM said that I could have both, but only if I take a -2 penalty to my leadership score because the other sailors would be "jealous" of favoritism shown towards the cohort, which he sees as having a "favored companion". Is there any evidence to support this? Now, I'm trying to be as nice as I can be. I'm more than a little annoyed by this situation, but if I have enough people agree with my DM's analysis of the feat, I'll go ahead and admit I was wrong. Thanks, all.
#2 nightson Aug 11, 2009 19:38:17	There's nothing by RAW that says you don't attract both a cohort and followers.
#3 doomsought Aug 11, 2009 19:56:45	RAW is both. one or the other is in D20 modern, but there is a different feat for each.
#4 revan54115110 Aug 11, 2009 21:06:27	well when in dought sometimes just talking to the DM in private if you are don't under stand what he is up to but acoding to the raw he is out in left feild
#5 entropy_judge Aug 11, 2009 21:16:42	To complicate things more, the DM said that I could have both, but only if I take a -2 penalty to my leadership score because the other sailors would be "jealous" of favoritism shown towards the cohort, which he sees as having a "favored companion". Is there any evidence to support this? The cohort is a real person - the followers are non-levelling NPCs. As for your bigger question (either or both): Having this feat enables the character to attract loyal companions and devoted followers, subordinates who assist her. See the table below for what sort of cohort and how many followers the character can recruit. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership
#6 jgumbyrx Aug 13, 2009 0:35:58	While Leadership does give you both a cohort and followers, I can't really blame the DM for wanting to nerf the most powerful feat in the frickin' game. A mitigating factor I use for leadership in my games is that the cohort must have all of his levels be NPC-class levels; if it has any PC-class levels, I impose a +2LA. but that's just my 2 cp
#7 Darkwolf_Bloodsbane Aug 13, 2009 11:58:34	While Leadership does give you both a cohort and followers, I can't really blame the DM for wanting to nerf the most powerful feat in the frickin' game. A mitigating factor I use for leadership in my games is that the cohort must have all of his levels be NPC-class levels; if it has any PC-class levels, I impose a +2LA. but that's just my 2 cp But the discussion is the Leadership feat, not Epic Spellcasting, AKA "I win D&D." So try to stay on topic, 'kay?:D
#8 jgumbyrx Aug 13, 2009 12:53:00	But the discussion is the Leadership feat, not Epic Spellcasting, AKA "I win D&D." So try to stay on topic, 'kay?:D really? are you f'n kidding me? okay, let me re-phrase that: ... the most powerful non-epic feat in the game. there, are you happy now?
#9 Darkwolf_Bloodsbane Aug 14, 2009 15:56:26	really? are you f'n kidding me? okay, let me re-phrase that: ... the most powerful non-epic feat in the game. there, are you happy now? Some people have no sense of humor.
#10 jgumbyrx Aug 14, 2009 23:08:40	Some people have no sense of humor. sorry. was on one too many threads that devolved in to stupidness -- it can be difficult sometimes to tell what people really mean.
#11 Orcboss Aug 15, 2009 0:47:14	Alright. I'm going to be playing a sea-faring campaign pretty soon. As such, I've been considering taking the Leadership feat ASAP, in order to have my own crew to man a ship. If all you want is a crew for the ship, how about this? The followers and cohort don't actually "adventure" with you, they just run the ship. The followers belong to the cohort and he is captain or first mate or whatever of your ship. If they're not swinging swords on your behalf (apart from defending the ship) having both isn't really that powerful, its just a plot device.
#12 jgumbyrx Aug 15, 2009 9:12:42	If all you want is a crew for the ship, how about this? The followers and cohort don't actually "adventure" with you, they just run the ship. The followers belong to the cohort and he is captain or first mate or whatever of your ship. If they're not swinging swords on your behalf (apart from defending the ship) having both isn't really that powerful, its just a plot device. me likes. +1
#13 i_roll_ones Aug 15, 2009 12:45:11	I agree. Sure, it's powerful, but it keeps the plot going, and glossing over the boring bits of owning a ship(swabbing decks) while allowing the party to get to the fun parts. If the NPCs are just Experts and don't do much, it shouldn't ruin the party. However, do inform your DM on the correct version. Yeah, he is the DM, but he should understand what the rules really say, otherwise this leads to a bad precedent. What the DM says goes, unless he's trying to rewrite reality and change what is written. That and the favoritism excuse seems weak. You pay more attention to your lieutenant, of course, he's an officer. If the minions don't like that, they need a new career. This is a military, not a tea party.
#14 chava Aug 15, 2009 15:03:31	If all you want is a crew for the ship, how about this? The followers and cohort don't actually "adventure" with you, they just run the ship. The followers belong to the cohort and he is captain or first mate or whatever of your ship. If they're not swinging swords on your behalf (apart from defending the ship) having both isn't really that powerful, its just a plot device. Oddly enough, in a high level game that my friend is running, he required the girl who wanted to play a pirate captain to take the Leadership feat to get her crew. And then another of us needed to take it to represent the people in our home port. Unless, we wanted her crew to turn on us in the first adventure.... Note - neither our cohorts nor or followers adventure with us. (The town cohort and followers stay in the home port and take care of the home front... Which is good since we can easily be gone for a year or two. Seafaring world, teleport limited to 1-mile safe limit) We took the feats for the purpose of plot device. And except for when the DM forgets that, it's great fun. Edit: For the OP - however this is dpt on what level you are. For example in our game our characters started out as 13th level and our adventuring group has worked together on and off for 10 years. If you are getting Leadership when you first qualify for it, you definitely have your cohort, but you won't have enough followers for your entire crew to be followers. In the stop-gap you'll have to talk about the need to hire people with your dm, etc. Additionally, whilst your crew is followers and doesn't need anything technically, you still might want to consider the need to pay them, etc.
#15 Orcboss Aug 15, 2009 15:48:40	However, do inform your DM on the correct version. Yeah, he is the DM, but he should understand what the rules really say, otherwise this leads to a bad precedent. What the DM says goes, unless he's trying to rewrite reality and change what is written. Ya, when I suggested that, it was just an idea for a mutually acceptable bargain. I don't agree with the OP's DM on Leadership.