Less hacking more RP please. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Less hacking more RP please.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kerelis
Apr 28, 2008 8:10:25 I played for about 10 years with a group in another area. We played a campaign based in Forgotten Realms. It was very heavy on roleplaying with many sessions in which there was little or no combat, while the PC's interacted with complex NPC's of the DM's design. Storylines were political intrigue based with PC's backgrounds taken into account and woven into what was going on so they were very involved. We started at level 3 and ended at epic level, and it was really fun.

I stopped playing for about 3 years because I moved to another area for a graduate degree. Recently I started playing with a new group in this area.

The DM is cool and (based on what I've seen in the last 4 or 5 sessions we've had) would certainly be amenable to more roleplaying. He is making his own world which imo has a lot of potential for interesting storylines and rp.

The problem that I'm seeing is that the other players seem focused only on hacking. All they want to do is go kill things, and I find that very boring. Sometimes they kill things with no reason imo, but just because they are there. For example, we went to a swamp outside the city to investigate some "moaning sounds" that had been disturbing people. Once there we spotted some orcs who were just picking through debris that was on the ground. They had done nothing offensive, yet members of the party opened fire on them. I was drawn in the fight to support the other party members, but I couldn't see why we were killing them. My character is a N witch who has a "live and let live" philosophy.

When we were in the town, I tried to convince other PC's to "go out on the town with me". I figured that a bunch of women (the party is 5 females out of 7) with a plenty of ready cash would want to go shopping, get a makeover, go out to eat at a tavern/restaurant and maybe attend a bardic performance---but no one would do it.

I guess they don't connect social non-combat situations with anything that would benefit their character advancement. I ended up just going along with the other party members and I still had fun...but I still feel like the game is becoming too one-sided.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can encourage other people in the group to roleplay? Or am I just being picky?
#2
Zuggster
Apr 28, 2008 8:47:03
(the party is 5 females out of 7)

I think this question will answer it. How many of the players are female in that number?

The reason I ask, is that I've been in many groups where guys play female characters, that don't want to RP it like they have female characters, in which case, I don't think there is an easy solution to be had.

If the group is actually has some real females, I think you can break down the borders a little bit, and possibly get some RP done, but it might take some time/effort.
#3
green_yawgmoth
Apr 28, 2008 8:50:42 Sounds like the people you play with would rather play WoW than D&D. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but seriously; if none of them can even put forth a modicum of effort to RP their character, then I think you need to find a new group.
#4
kerelis
Apr 28, 2008 8:55:27 3 of the 5 female characters are played by girls. 2 are played by guys. I don't know how that happened, it just did.
#5
drmorganes
Apr 28, 2008 9:36:17 First mistake: assuming that all women prefer the social aspects of gaming. Many female gamers (I don't have statistics, just experience) like the brutality of fantasy combat because it's not something they can do in real life. Some like the tactical aspects of combat.

Second mistake: assuming that men with female characters have a clue about how women actually behave. :P

Next thing to consider: how long have these people been playing D&D? How old are they? In my experience, older players and people of all ages who have been playing for a long time tend to move away from hack and slash at some point. It's a natural progression: new players tend to enjoy the dice and combat more because it doesn't require them to move outside their comfort zone. Let's face it: it takes a certain amount of courage and trust for an adult to play make-believe in front of other adults. Once that trust develops, and the players gain the courage, the game may naturally move away from a combat-only focus and into more roleplaying encounters.

Are you being too picky? Perhaps. I don't think we have enough information to truly comment, though.

Advice on how to draw out the roleplayer in them? First thing is to get with the DM. Changes like this need to come into the game from the top down. Encourage him to come up with encounters that simply cannot be solved through combat. Having awards based one roleplaying will create a framework where the rest of the party understands that XP, gold, gear, new spells, and other less tangible benefits can be gained through roleplay. As DM, I've gone so far as to flat-out tell newer players that I'd have awarded more XP had they talked their way though an encounter...

The DM should also work on staying in character whenever the party interacts with an NPC. ANY NPC. This in effect "gives permission" to the rest of the group to find their characters' voices and stay in character as well. From there, YOU step in and help as well. Always remain in character when speaking to the other players. Respond in character when they break character. ("How does one see something that is "Lost"? I had watch last night, and I saw nothing!") Above all, be patient and understanding. It takes time for people to get comfortable being silly in front of other people.

Good luck!
#6
rosisha
Apr 28, 2008 9:41:52 I hate to say it but welcome to modern D&D.

If your DM tries to do anything about this, s/he will be railroading the game, and forcing your players to do as s/he sees fit. This is "oppressing the freedom of the PCs."

Keep in mind that if this happens in the campaign world that the DM is developing, it is still oppressing the freedom of the PCs. Playing anything that isn't core/FR is inherently bad and oppressing the freedom of the PCs.

And, you also have to understand, that D&D is based on a wargame, so it is all about combat and hack and slash. This ignores the fact that the game was developed to explore other options other then wargaming.

But yeah, good luck. I suggest you introduce the players to 2nd Ed AD&D. Will make your DM's life easier. And yours!

Rosisha
#7
iserith
Apr 28, 2008 10:05:40 The best way to combat indiscriminate killing - whether it be monsters in the wild or city guards or whatever - is to have consequences for it. I'll give you a couple of examples of how I schooled some of my PCs recently, even though they should have known better:

- In Episode One of Serial Hero (see my sig), the PC fighter killed one of two changelings that were attacking them in their private cabin on a train. The changelings were using saps. They were obviously not trying to kill the PCs (at least not yet). The fighter took out his flail and killed one of the changelings in one shot, splattering his brains all over the room. They subdued the other changeling and waterboarded him for a while in the toilet before throwing the both of them off the train. The chief constable passed by at one point and noticed some holes in the door frame where crossbow bolts had missed and some blood spatters on the floor. Since three of his guards were missing (having been replaced by the changelings and a doppelganger), the PCs became prime suspects and suffered accordingly. They would surely have faced criminal charges in the city had the constable himself not been replaced by the doppelganger later in the episode.

- In Episode Two of Serial Hero, the PCs got into a barfight with some locals who accused them of spreading disease in their town. The party's cleric took a couple of good fists to the face before he started to use Diplomacy. The party's fighter got sucker punched, but it was just a glancing blow. So the fighter whipped out his flail (again) and attacked to subdue, but missed. The NPCs - including the tavern owner - started screaming at the PCs to leave, calling them cowards for pulling weapons in a straight-up fist fight. The tavern owner then spread rumors all over town that the PCs were cowards, netting them a total of a -6 penalty on all Charisma-based skill checks while there.

In your case, the DM could have some relatives of the orcs turn up in town and challenge the PCs. Maybe these ones are the successful adventuring cousins or children of the orcs that were slain. Ideally, they throw you guys a beating, nearly killing one or more of you before they are defeated. I guarantee you the players will arrive at the conclusion that you should only kill when you need to.

If there are no consequences for indiscriminate use of force, it will always continue. When the PCs realize they can get much further by talking instead of fighting, roleplay will take center stage.
#8
nephlite
Apr 28, 2008 15:21:59
In your case, the DM could have some relatives of the orcs turn up in town and challenge the PCs. Maybe these ones are the successful adventuring cousins or children of the orcs that were slain. Ideally, they throw you guys a beating, nearly killing one or more of you before they are defeated. I guarantee you the players will arrive at the conclusion that you should only kill when you need to.

If there are no consequences for indiscriminate use of force, it will always continue. When the PCs realize they can get much further by talking instead of fighting, roleplay will take center stage.

Nah, if that happened to me: i'd clean up after my messes and leave no witnesses:
On that train: I'd get rid of blood stains, Prestigidation works (cleans any stain) or mend for arrow wound on wall.

For the Orc: leave no body/witnesses: no one knows you did it, so why they attack you.

Really, this just makes them be violent smarter. It doesn't stop violence.

If you want violence to stop: have DM switch to overcoming obstacles/encounters = Exp instead of just combat.
If a player diplomacy to win a situation: party gets Exp.

When the players see this; they might follow suit to get Exp.

Negative reinforcement is a terrible plan. It just means party works harder at not getting caught.

You want positive reinforcement.
#9
iserith
Apr 28, 2008 16:16:38
Nah, if that happened to me: i'd clean up after my messes and leave no witnesses:
On that train: I'd get rid of blood stains, Prestigidation works (cleans any stain) or mend for arrow wound on wall.

True, but in this case, they didn't think to perform such niceties.

For the Orc: leave no body/witnesses: no one knows you did it, so why they attack you.

One of their kids is a cleric with a speak with dead spell. After finding out from his father's corpse that a man matching one of the PCs' descriptions has killed him, he gathers some of his buddies and seeks vengeance.

I suppose then the retort would be to chop off the heads and burn them or bury them somewhere else. And then if the orcs used the Track/Urban Tracking feat to find the PCs, I suppose the retort would be to get pass without trace. At which point the NPCs will need better divination spells to which the answer is a nondetection spell. And on and on and on...

I don't think people would go through this much trouble for the chance to kill some lowly orcs.

If you want violence to stop: have DM switch to overcoming obstacles/encounters = Exp instead of just combat.
If a player diplomacy to win a situation: party gets Exp.

When the players see this; they might follow suit to get Exp.

Negative reinforcement is a terrible plan. It just means party works harder at not getting caught.

You want positive reinforcement.

"Being violent smarter" could also be the same as being violent only when one needs to be.

XP awards might work. Or you could do what I do - get rid of XP altogether. If there's no xp to be gained by killing those orcs, they might not have stopped to kill them. Once you get rid of the "Killing things = more levels" dynamic, players often leave unimportant stuff alone.
#10
drackthor
Apr 28, 2008 16:28:27
Sounds like the people you play with would rather play WoW than D&D. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but seriously; if none of them can even put forth a modicum of effort to RP their character, then I think you need to find a new group.

Just figured I'd put in something:

We at the Blackwater Raiders server RP heavily, and are proud of it.

Sorry, just had to say it.
#11
Demetri_Knighthawk
Apr 28, 2008 19:03:03 start awarding only half the XP for an encounter if they hack and slash, award the other half of the XP when they actualy RP like search/spot for clues.

Award +50% xp if they actualy talk their way out of a fight, and no just rolling bluff is not talking their way out.
#12
etarnon
Apr 28, 2008 19:08:56 Sounds to me like you might want to seek out a different group, like your old one.
#13
green_yawgmoth
Apr 29, 2008 11:55:16
Just figured I'd put in something:

We at the Blackwater Raiders server RP heavily, and are proud of it.

Sorry, just had to say it.

Is it actual RP, or the stuff nightmares are made of? because over on Sisters of Elune, well... let's just say that you never want to go to the second floor of any inn, ever. Ever. <.<;;

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kerelis Apr 28, 2008 8:10:25	I played for about 10 years with a group in another area. We played a campaign based in Forgotten Realms. It was very heavy on roleplaying with many sessions in which there was little or no combat, while the PC's interacted with complex NPC's of the DM's design. Storylines were political intrigue based with PC's backgrounds taken into account and woven into what was going on so they were very involved. We started at level 3 and ended at epic level, and it was really fun. I stopped playing for about 3 years because I moved to another area for a graduate degree. Recently I started playing with a new group in this area. The DM is cool and (based on what I've seen in the last 4 or 5 sessions we've had) would certainly be amenable to more roleplaying. He is making his own world which imo has a lot of potential for interesting storylines and rp. The problem that I'm seeing is that the other players seem focused only on hacking. All they want to do is go kill things, and I find that very boring. Sometimes they kill things with no reason imo, but just because they are there. For example, we went to a swamp outside the city to investigate some "moaning sounds" that had been disturbing people. Once there we spotted some orcs who were just picking through debris that was on the ground. They had done nothing offensive, yet members of the party opened fire on them. I was drawn in the fight to support the other party members, but I couldn't see why we were killing them. My character is a N witch who has a "live and let live" philosophy. When we were in the town, I tried to convince other PC's to "go out on the town with me". I figured that a bunch of women (the party is 5 females out of 7) with a plenty of ready cash would want to go shopping, get a makeover, go out to eat at a tavern/restaurant and maybe attend a bardic performance---but no one would do it. I guess they don't connect social non-combat situations with anything that would benefit their character advancement. I ended up just going along with the other party members and I still had fun...but I still feel like the game is becoming too one-sided. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can encourage other people in the group to roleplay? Or am I just being picky?
#2 Zuggster Apr 28, 2008 8:47:03	(the party is 5 females out of 7) I think this question will answer it. How many of the players are female in that number? The reason I ask, is that I've been in many groups where guys play female characters, that don't want to RP it like they have female characters, in which case, I don't think there is an easy solution to be had. If the group is actually has some real females, I think you can break down the borders a little bit, and possibly get some RP done, but it might take some time/effort.
#3 green_yawgmoth Apr 28, 2008 8:50:42	Sounds like the people you play with would rather play WoW than D&D. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but seriously; if none of them can even put forth a modicum of effort to RP their character, then I think you need to find a new group.
#4 kerelis Apr 28, 2008 8:55:27	3 of the 5 female characters are played by girls. 2 are played by guys. I don't know how that happened, it just did.
#5 drmorganes Apr 28, 2008 9:36:17	First mistake: assuming that all women prefer the social aspects of gaming. Many female gamers (I don't have statistics, just experience) like the brutality of fantasy combat because it's not something they can do in real life. Some like the tactical aspects of combat. Second mistake: assuming that men with female characters have a clue about how women actually behave. :P Next thing to consider: how long have these people been playing D&D? How old are they? In my experience, older players and people of all ages who have been playing for a long time tend to move away from hack and slash at some point. It's a natural progression: new players tend to enjoy the dice and combat more because it doesn't require them to move outside their comfort zone. Let's face it: it takes a certain amount of courage and trust for an adult to play make-believe in front of other adults. Once that trust develops, and the players gain the courage, the game may naturally move away from a combat-only focus and into more roleplaying encounters. Are you being too picky? Perhaps. I don't think we have enough information to truly comment, though. Advice on how to draw out the roleplayer in them? First thing is to get with the DM. Changes like this need to come into the game from the top down. Encourage him to come up with encounters that simply cannot be solved through combat. Having awards based one roleplaying will create a framework where the rest of the party understands that XP, gold, gear, new spells, and other less tangible benefits can be gained through roleplay. As DM, I've gone so far as to flat-out tell newer players that I'd have awarded more XP had they talked their way though an encounter... The DM should also work on staying in character whenever the party interacts with an NPC. ANY NPC. This in effect "gives permission" to the rest of the group to find their characters' voices and stay in character as well. From there, YOU step in and help as well. Always remain in character when speaking to the other players. Respond in character when they break character. ("How does one see something that is "Lost"? I had watch last night, and I saw nothing!") Above all, be patient and understanding. It takes time for people to get comfortable being silly in front of other people. Good luck!
#6 rosisha Apr 28, 2008 9:41:52	I hate to say it but welcome to modern D&D. If your DM tries to do anything about this, s/he will be railroading the game, and forcing your players to do as s/he sees fit. This is "oppressing the freedom of the PCs." Keep in mind that if this happens in the campaign world that the DM is developing, it is still oppressing the freedom of the PCs. Playing anything that isn't core/FR is inherently bad and oppressing the freedom of the PCs. And, you also have to understand, that D&D is based on a wargame, so it is all about combat and hack and slash. This ignores the fact that the game was developed to explore other options other then wargaming. But yeah, good luck. I suggest you introduce the players to 2nd Ed AD&D. Will make your DM's life easier. And yours! Rosisha
#7 iserith Apr 28, 2008 10:05:40	The best way to combat indiscriminate killing - whether it be monsters in the wild or city guards or whatever - is to have consequences for it. I'll give you a couple of examples of how I schooled some of my PCs recently, even though they should have known better: - In Episode One of Serial Hero (see my sig), the PC fighter killed one of two changelings that were attacking them in their private cabin on a train. The changelings were using saps. They were obviously not trying to kill the PCs (at least not yet). The fighter took out his flail and killed one of the changelings in one shot, splattering his brains all over the room. They subdued the other changeling and waterboarded him for a while in the toilet before throwing the both of them off the train. The chief constable passed by at one point and noticed some holes in the door frame where crossbow bolts had missed and some blood spatters on the floor. Since three of his guards were missing (having been replaced by the changelings and a doppelganger), the PCs became prime suspects and suffered accordingly. They would surely have faced criminal charges in the city had the constable himself not been replaced by the doppelganger later in the episode. - In Episode Two of Serial Hero, the PCs got into a barfight with some locals who accused them of spreading disease in their town. The party's cleric took a couple of good fists to the face before he started to use Diplomacy. The party's fighter got sucker punched, but it was just a glancing blow. So the fighter whipped out his flail (again) and attacked to subdue, but missed. The NPCs - including the tavern owner - started screaming at the PCs to leave, calling them cowards for pulling weapons in a straight-up fist fight. The tavern owner then spread rumors all over town that the PCs were cowards, netting them a total of a -6 penalty on all Charisma-based skill checks while there. In your case, the DM could have some relatives of the orcs turn up in town and challenge the PCs. Maybe these ones are the successful adventuring cousins or children of the orcs that were slain. Ideally, they throw you guys a beating, nearly killing one or more of you before they are defeated. I guarantee you the players will arrive at the conclusion that you should only kill when you need to. If there are no consequences for indiscriminate use of force, it will always continue. When the PCs realize they can get much further by talking instead of fighting, roleplay will take center stage.
#8 nephlite Apr 28, 2008 15:21:59	In your case, the DM could have some relatives of the orcs turn up in town and challenge the PCs. Maybe these ones are the successful adventuring cousins or children of the orcs that were slain. Ideally, they throw you guys a beating, nearly killing one or more of you before they are defeated. I guarantee you the players will arrive at the conclusion that you should only kill when you need to. If there are no consequences for indiscriminate use of force, it will always continue. When the PCs realize they can get much further by talking instead of fighting, roleplay will take center stage. Nah, if that happened to me: i'd clean up after my messes and leave no witnesses: On that train: I'd get rid of blood stains, Prestigidation works (cleans any stain) or mend for arrow wound on wall. For the Orc: leave no body/witnesses: no one knows you did it, so why they attack you. Really, this just makes them be violent smarter. It doesn't stop violence. If you want violence to stop: have DM switch to overcoming obstacles/encounters = Exp instead of just combat. If a player diplomacy to win a situation: party gets Exp. When the players see this; they might follow suit to get Exp. Negative reinforcement is a terrible plan. It just means party works harder at not getting caught. You want positive reinforcement.
#9 iserith Apr 28, 2008 16:16:38	Nah, if that happened to me: i'd clean up after my messes and leave no witnesses: On that train: I'd get rid of blood stains, Prestigidation works (cleans any stain) or mend for arrow wound on wall. True, but in this case, they didn't think to perform such niceties. For the Orc: leave no body/witnesses: no one knows you did it, so why they attack you. One of their kids is a cleric with a speak with dead spell. After finding out from his father's corpse that a man matching one of the PCs' descriptions has killed him, he gathers some of his buddies and seeks vengeance. I suppose then the retort would be to chop off the heads and burn them or bury them somewhere else. And then if the orcs used the Track/Urban Tracking feat to find the PCs, I suppose the retort would be to get pass without trace. At which point the NPCs will need better divination spells to which the answer is a nondetection spell. And on and on and on... I don't think people would go through this much trouble for the chance to kill some lowly orcs. If you want violence to stop: have DM switch to overcoming obstacles/encounters = Exp instead of just combat. If a player diplomacy to win a situation: party gets Exp. When the players see this; they might follow suit to get Exp. Negative reinforcement is a terrible plan. It just means party works harder at not getting caught. You want positive reinforcement. "Being violent smarter" could also be the same as being violent only when one needs to be. XP awards might work. Or you could do what I do - get rid of XP altogether. If there's no xp to be gained by killing those orcs, they might not have stopped to kill them. Once you get rid of the "Killing things = more levels" dynamic, players often leave unimportant stuff alone.
#10 drackthor Apr 28, 2008 16:28:27	Sounds like the people you play with would rather play WoW than D&D. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but seriously; if none of them can even put forth a modicum of effort to RP their character, then I think you need to find a new group. Just figured I'd put in something: We at the Blackwater Raiders server RP heavily, and are proud of it. Sorry, just had to say it.
#11 Demetri_Knighthawk Apr 28, 2008 19:03:03	start awarding only half the XP for an encounter if they hack and slash, award the other half of the XP when they actualy RP like search/spot for clues. Award +50% xp if they actualy talk their way out of a fight, and no just rolling bluff is not talking their way out.
#12 etarnon Apr 28, 2008 19:08:56	Sounds to me like you might want to seek out a different group, like your old one.
#13 green_yawgmoth Apr 29, 2008 11:55:16	Just figured I'd put in something: We at the Blackwater Raiders server RP heavily, and are proud of it. Sorry, just had to say it. Is it actual RP, or the stuff nightmares are made of? because over on Sisters of Elune, well... let's just say that you never want to go to the second floor of any inn, ever. Ever. <.<;;