So I joined a game a friend of mine started, he wants me to see what he considers true D&D before he joins my 4e game. So we started playing basic D&D, the most brutal game of it I have played. ( I am slowly but surely building up a 4e group but it is taking a lot of work...)
The first combat caused our thief to die ( I warned her not to touch the bear cub... but the DM was going on and on about how cute it was). The second session had another thief die and I my dwarf was almost dead.
The third session was the worst, we saved a kid we were sent to get and headed home. When our dm mentioned a newly formed tunnel, I ignored it at first but he pressed the matter. I would say things like " I don't want to put the kid in danger" he'd reply "But the tunnel is very interesting to you" I said no and he said treasure could be in it. I told him I would get it after I dropped of the kid but he replied that it would be gone by then.
Long story short we went in got attacked by giant ants, I nearly died keeping more from coming out of the tunnel as our group cleared a the ants behind us. We lost our cleric and our third thief. every one else was wounded.
As we moved on the dm told us we were hungry and tired... We all had bought a weeks worth of ration and only been gone 3 days. He decided that we only took 2 days rations with us so we were out. Well we had all eaten the day before and town was only a half day away so we decided to deal with it until he wot back. Not a chance, dm intervention again "The kid is about to collapse from starvation you should hunt for some food" I make camp and gaurd the kid as the elf and halfling go hunting.
They find a boar try to kill it, it kills the halfling and chases the elf back to camp were it kills me and the kid.
The dm was shocked that we were all killed and now has offered us a chance to play 2nd ed
I did enjoy basic and would love to play more but when the game is that brutal I am not sure.
How would you guy go about handling this?
Was this too much for level ones or were we just unlucky? Were we being railroaded to destruction or am I overreacting?
He seems to be going out of his way to get your characters to do things that will likely get them killed. It's not his job to kill you, but to provide you with challenges that you will hopefully overcome.You were being railroaded.
I think 'being railroaded' is being too nice for what that Dm was doing.
I think 'being railroaded' is being too nice for what that Dm was doing.
Granted, but at least MY first thought about what the DM was doing was not printable on these boards.
I know this is the wrong edition but it is not a question about the edition.
So I joined a game a friend of mine started, he wants me to see what he considers true D&D before he joins my 4e game. So we started playing basic D&D, the most brutal game of it I have played. ( I am slowly but surely building up a 4e group but it is taking a lot of work...)
The first combat caused our thief to die ( I warned her not to touch the bear cub... but the DM was going on and on about how cute it was). The second session had another thief die and I my dwarf was almost dead.
The third session was the worst, we saved a kid we were sent to get and headed home. When our dm mentioned a newly formed tunnel, I ignored it at first but he pressed the matter. I would say things like " I don't want to put the kid in danger" he'd reply "But the tunnel is very interesting to you" I said no and he said treasure could be in it. I told him I would get it after I dropped of the kid but he replied that it would be gone by then.
Long story short we went in got attacked by giant ants, I nearly died keeping more from coming out of the tunnel as our group cleared a the ants behind us. We lost our cleric and our third thief. every one else was wounded.
As we moved on the dm told us we were hungry and tired... We all had bought a weeks worth of ration and only been gone 3 days. He decided that we only took 2 days rations with us so we were out. Well we had all eaten the day before and town was only a half day away so we decided to deal with it until he wot back. Not a chance, dm intervention again "The kid is about to collapse from starvation you should hunt for some food" I make camp and gaurd the kid as the elf and halfling go hunting.
They find a boar try to kill it, it kills the halfling and chases the elf back to camp were it kills me and the kid.
The dm was shocked that we were all killed and now has offered us a chance to play 2nd ed
I did enjoy basic and would love to play more but when the game is that brutal I am not sure.
How would you guy go about handling this?
Was this too much for level ones or were we just unlucky? Were we being railroaded to destruction or am I overreacting?
Now THAT is what I call old school D&D! Yeah it's that brutal most of the time, when it's run the way it's supposed to. :D :woot one for us grognards
Six stats, a couple of hp, and a whole bunch of new characters per adventure because you're dead at 0 hp. 3e watered it down so much and 4e pretty much makes it impossible to die. But OD&D, now there's real danger, especially if you DM like Gygax advised in the 1e DMG, which your DM did passably but imperfectly. Old school D&D involves the DM killing PCs as often as possible, and they are encouraged to lie to players to coerce the PCs into falling for traps.Your DM had a few problem points. #1) His railroading wasn't done right because he didn't supply any valid reasons. He should have explained that there was a hole in the backpack or some rats ate the rations or something. #2) He should have explained that the kid was starving because he'd been missing for several days. Everything else is pretty much exactly what I think of when I think of D&D.
If brutality isn't to your taste, you might want to shy away or start at 5th level. Also, learn tactics that ensure your survival. Spells like grease can be lethal when used creatively.
In OD&D modules, here's my advice: Kill any maidens in the dungeon that want you to kiss them. Whenever the DM tells you how nice and lovely something is, destroy it or run like crazy from it. Buy an 11 foot pole because 10 foot poles aren't long enough. Check every single square inch for traps constantly. Check all traps for traps - yes sometimes even the traps are trapped. don't put your hands in any statues' mouths. Fly as often as possible, preferably while invisible. Remember that your DM's job is to try to constantly TPK the group in creative ways, and to make it look like you have a chance in purgatory of lasting more than three encounters in a row. Prepare to meet gangs of golems in 5th level dungeons and beholders in 1st level dungeons, and lonely skeletons in 15th level dungeons.
Which makes my next point: don't expect everything to be winnable, so run. Also remember the random encounter tables have dragons on them and are completely indifferent to difficulty; only frequency and climate/terrain matter. So your 1st level party might run into a band of orcs or a chimera, or just a family of deer. And never pet cute little mutant bunny rabbits.
Also don't expect to level up much, and make sure the DM uses the 1xp per gp rule; it makes up over 50% of your xp gain. Otherwise it will take ten RW years of playing to reach 10th level.
The death rate was such that a name was probably not necessary since your character would probably be dead before the session was over.
Trying to roleplay and get attached to a character in first edition was as futile as roleplaying and trying to roleplay ROCK in a series of Rock Paper Scissors matches which resulted in Rock actually DYING and not being usable anymore when you lose.
Yes, early edition battles had a lethality rate of a game of rock paper scissors. 1 in 3 chance of dying.
sounds brutal.
Anyway as the OP describes his DM I wouldn;t play a game with him. I aint scared of hard encounters but the blatant railroading makes me say a loud no to his game.
All that satire aside, your DM gets a rush from making player's squirm.
That's just obvious.
He's using his descriptions to lead you into danger, then ambushing you.
If you don't make the choice, he forces it.
A REAL DM would say, "Before you is a bear cub. It is making bear cub noises, as it snuffles the ground."
"We toss it a fish."
DM: Okay, it eats, and approaches warily, looking for more. In the distance, you hear a much larger bear, running.
"We Run for our lives!"
DM: At the last second, you slam and bolt the door home, as a multi hundred pound bear slams into the door, splintering it, but it holds.. for now.. what are you doing?
DM: The kid makes it back to town. You get paid.
"We go explore that old tunnel."
DM: As you approach, you smell acid and hear chittering noises and scraping.
"Swords out!"
DM: A torrent of giant ants rushes out of the cave, roll intiative.
Or something to that effect, maybe more colorful, butr not near tpk in adventure # 1. That's Tomb of Horrors.
I know this is the wrong edition but it is not a question about the edition.
So I joined a game a friend of mine started, he wants me to see what he considers true D&D before he joins my 4e game. So we started playing basic D&D, the most brutal game of it I have played. ( I am slowly but surely building up a 4e group but it is taking a lot of work...)
The first combat caused our thief to die ( I warned her not to touch the bear cub... but the DM was going on and on about how cute it was). The second session had another thief die and I my dwarf was almost dead.
The third session was the worst, we saved a kid we were sent to get and headed home. When our dm mentioned a newly formed tunnel, I ignored it at first but he pressed the matter. I would say things like " I don't want to put the kid in danger" he'd reply "But the tunnel is very interesting to you" I said no and he said treasure could be in it. I told him I would get it after I dropped of the kid but he replied that it would be gone by then.
Long story short we went in got attacked by giant ants, I nearly died keeping more from coming out of the tunnel as our group cleared a the ants behind us. We lost our cleric and our third thief. every one else was wounded.
As we moved on the dm told us we were hungry and tired... We all had bought a weeks worth of ration and only been gone 3 days. He decided that we only took 2 days rations with us so we were out. Well we had all eaten the day before and town was only a half day away so we decided to deal with it until he wot back. Not a chance, dm intervention again "The kid is about to collapse from starvation you should hunt for some food" I make camp and gaurd the kid as the elf and halfling go hunting.
They find a boar try to kill it, it kills the halfling and chases the elf back to camp were it kills me and the kid.
The dm was shocked that we were all killed and now has offered us a chance to play 2nd ed
I did enjoy basic and would love to play more but when the game is that brutal I am not sure.
How would you guy go about handling this?
Was this too much for level ones or were we just unlucky? Were we being railroaded to destruction or am I overreacting?
You were being railroaded. He set you up, restricted your actions, outright ignored your decisions about how much gear you spent your character's money on ...
It was bull****. The DM put you all on the FAILROAD and chugga-chugged you right off a cliff.
He needs to very closely examine why he wanted to play the game in the first place. He might also want to have a psychologist help him with that.
And I'm saying this plainly as someone who is not opposed to lethal campaigns. My campaigns can be lethal. Characters can and do die in them.
But you don't ever railroad the characters into death. And you don't resolve things like the rations issue against them. If the players bought 2 weeks worth of rations and that's what is on your sheet as a player, then as a DM I'm assuming you have 2 weeks of rations WITH YOU unless you specifically say you are leaving them somewhere.
So I say, bad DM. Lethality in and of itself isn't bad. It can be fun. But the DM has to give the players the freedom they need to make it fun.
Such as the Tunnel, why wouldn't it still be there when you got back? And why would it have treasure in it? You have no motive to explore it and yet the DM all but thrusts it at you.
And the Boar? First you had plenty of rations and the DM has no real story as to why you are out as you packed plenty. He forces you to hunt for what reason?
Because he has prepared a boar attack, a lethal boar is going to be the only game or food to be found in the forest and you are going to fight it and have no choice otherwise.
And the boar chases you down and kills everyone?
What boar behaves like this. sure it might charge to protect itself but then probably run off. At worse it would chase one person and maul them but it wouldn't then split off and chase others down. It's a stupid pig not an angel of vengence.
Forcing situations upon the characters, baiting them into making bad choices with promises of rewards and threats of no rewards (there might be treasure in the cave and it might not be there when you return) and then pitting them against hopeless encounters.
With such a railroad, trick and kill DM it would suck
Then ask him if he enjoyed it.
Be wary of counter blows.
Luckily, I have gotten more soft in my old age. Now I would tell him to his face what I think about his "storytelling/DMing" and walk out on him.
That was tying you to the tracks, when there is an oncoming train.
I disagree with many of the above posts. That was not railroading.
That was tying you to the tracks, when there is an oncoming train.
And it turns out your allergic to trains.
And it turns out your allergic to trains.
So you get death and a rash.
I know this is the wrong edition but it is not a question about the edition.
So I joined a game a friend of mine started, he wants me to see what he considers true D&D before he joins my 4e game. So we started playing basic D&D, the most brutal game of it I have played. ( I am slowly but surely building up a 4e group but it is taking a lot of work...)
The first combat caused our thief to die ( I warned her not to touch the bear cub... but the DM was going on and on about how cute it was). The second session had another thief die and I my dwarf was almost dead.
The third session was the worst, we saved a kid we were sent to get and headed home. When our dm mentioned a newly formed tunnel, I ignored it at first but he pressed the matter. I would say things like " I don't want to put the kid in danger" he'd reply "But the tunnel is very interesting to you" I said no and he said treasure could be in it. I told him I would get it after I dropped of the kid but he replied that it would be gone by then.
Long story short we went in got attacked by giant ants, I nearly died keeping more from coming out of the tunnel as our group cleared a the ants behind us. We lost our cleric and our third thief. every one else was wounded.
As we moved on the dm told us we were hungry and tired... We all had bought a weeks worth of ration and only been gone 3 days. He decided that we only took 2 days rations with us so we were out. Well we had all eaten the day before and town was only a half day away so we decided to deal with it until he wot back. Not a chance, dm intervention again "The kid is about to collapse from starvation you should hunt for some food" I make camp and gaurd the kid as the elf and halfling go hunting.
They find a boar try to kill it, it kills the halfling and chases the elf back to camp were it kills me and the kid.
The dm was shocked that we were all killed and now has offered us a chance to play 2nd ed
I did enjoy basic and would love to play more but when the game is that brutal I am not sure.
How would you guy go about handling this?
Was this too much for level ones or were we just unlucky? Were we being railroaded to destruction or am I overreacting?
This sounds less like an issue with the lethality inherent in the system itself, and more like a DM who likes killing you guys off. I don't mind a hard or lethal game, in fact sometimes it makes for some serious tension. However, only if its consistent and done within the rules. This is very different than a DM just kicking your butts all over the place because he is the DM and can easily manipulate the rules to achieve such an outcome. Short answer: The DM is the problem, not the system you are using. This is why many people like to have a game rule for everything that is done in the game. If everyone knows the rules in play, then it makes it more difficult for abusive DM's (and Player's for that matter). My 2 cents.
So in his mind as soon as we saw that they did 2d6 damage we should of used torches since he blocked our escape route with more ants... so that may have been our fault for not thinking. Or he may have just decided to give us a way out.
I mean really multiple enemies that do 2d6 damage that we could barely hit, I was the dwarf and I only had 10 hp (I love the fact that dwarves are so cool they don't need a class :D )
Bad DM, find another, the game's fun.
early D&D was like 300 (everyone dies)
modern D&D is like the second matrix movie (everyone is too badass to die before the finale).
this isn't a problem really; it just means that for people used to one or the other, a couple minutes of setting expectations is probably necessary.
Okay So I am not overreacting. Also in the ant fight I guess the DM thought that was our fault for not thinking... we all would of died there until I rolled a natural 1, 3 times in that fight, disarmed myself of all my weapons
And he houseruled a critical fumble 'drop weapon' rule? Another 'don't play here' sign if ever there was one.
early D&D editions were more lethal, part of the 'cool' of terrifying monsters were that they ate people. part of the 'cool' of fantasy dungeon delving is that the curse actually works.
early D&D was like 300 (everyone dies)
modern D&D is like the second matrix movie (everyone is too badass to die before the finale).
this isn't a problem really; it just means that for people used to one or the other, a couple minutes of setting expectations is probably necessary.
Clearly you haven't fought enough kobolds in 4E. Those things are vicious. Seriously. Little tiny kobolds will rip you to shreds, careful or no. Combat in 4E has been, in my experience, very threatening.
it's just that you as a player (and party) now have enough tools that the enemies don't have to go soft on you for you to survive as intended.
OD&D was like that with kobolds but you still had only 5 hp
Railroading is the most common hallmark of a crappy DM.
How the hell is a cave not going to be there when you come back to it?
That sounds like a ball sucking DM.
"The bear cub is cute, really really cute, aw c'mon it's cute, like AMAZINGLY cute. Aw screw it you pet the Bear, unfortunately it was coated in a contact poison and you die. ... What? The poison isn't formulated for bears, yeah that's it."
I have been notorious for fighting against the railroad in adventures. I once took a Finger of Death from an evil Sorceress who ORDERED us to do her bidding or die. Simply in defiance of railroad.
Just... Wow.
Yeah, I have to agree that your DM wasn't railroading you at all, but tying you to the train tracks. It's like that infamous Tomb of Horrors module, with the demon mouth, but instead of letting you ignore it and continue like you're supposed to, the DM goes 'But the demon mouth is *really enticing*, and you don't want to not explore it! You're getting delirious with hunger and you'll die in 3 rounds from starvation, and all your rations spontaneously combusted in your backpack, destroying all your gear and leaving you with 1hp! You smell food from inside the demon mouth!' and blames you for 'being an idiot'.
Your gut feeling is right. Uninvite yourself from the game, forcefully if you have to.
It may well be alright to let him join, though - there's stories abound of good players who become horrible DMs when allowed behind the screen, and he may well be one of those.
Don't understand me wrong, it's not just the DM's job of spreading the fun, but if he is intentionally spoiling your fun to have some at your expense just screw him.
Start your own campaign and have some real fun.
I stay away from DMing because, as silly as it sounds, I get a little miffed when too many of "my" monsters are getting killed by those "mettling kids," and I'm way too tempted to start fudging rolls to make the encounter harder.
Yeah, certainly invite him to play in your game, but be -very- wary that he'll either start bossing the rest of the party around, or sit there, stare at you, and say, "So, what are we supposed to do?"
This is a very important thing for a DM to learn, actually. A concise, clear plot hook is a wonderful thing. Essentially, you need to tell the PCs that something needs to be done, but not tell them how to go about it.
There's exceptions, of course; if you're fighting a special monster with only one weakness, then there really is only one way to fight it; find its Achilles' Heel. But you let the PCs figure it out on their own, don't just tell them. One of my favorite bad DM stories was when he was trying to weave a prophecy ... a rather specific one, though, rather than usual prophetic vagaries. He basically pointed to one of the party members and said "He can only die if you strike him with (name I can't recall), an ancient dagger from a forgotten time."
I'm expecting a big ol' continent-spanning epic quest. No ... as soon as I mention the idea of researching the dagger and trying to hunt it down, the prophet pulls it out from behind his back. No, it's right there. How exciting.
A) Is an ass.
B)Sucks.
C)Needs to learn how to DM.
D) All of the above.
That campaign clearly calls for Evil characters! You shouldn't run characters that are good...you'll get owned, you need a nice, evil character to push your buddy in front of the rampaging boar and murder every single NPC you meet.
seconded and I further the cause to go over his minis with a hammer.
then shoot him with the said hammer.