Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 land_of_dogs Feb 13, 2009 15:25:33	Yo, I'm sorta new to D and D (I've played few times before and I get the basic combat and the dice rolls and adding everything, but I've never played after level 2) and I have a little problem. I joined a new group to play with but their characters are all higher levels than me (I think the highest is level 7) and It's a little hard to keep up. I'm not completely useless to the group (I'm a rogue so I check for traps and search out for things the others might have missed) but in combat, I feel kinda worthless since my character has aready been blown up and some of the creatures I can't hurt. We gain experience as long as we survive specific parts the DM specifies so I don't really worry about experience, but I want to feel more useful to them you know. is there a way for me to become more useful? I'm a rogue but my race is kinda unspecified (they'e going to cast reincarnate on me so yeah. And yeah, I told them too and I know the consequences). Any ideas?
#2 salla Feb 13, 2009 15:27:39	You should have been brought into the group at the same level as the rest of the team.
#3 aluman Feb 13, 2009 15:27:51	Explain your feelings to your DM, ask him to come in at least at the lowest level of the other characters.
#4 chaosturtle Feb 13, 2009 16:23:51	...what kind of dm would let someone start at level 1 when there's someone at least level 7?
#5 yamishinobi Feb 13, 2009 17:15:34	everyone should be the same level. easier to keep track. or he's not giving you enough XP. or he is horrible with XP. i knew a DM who had trouble giving XP. is your DM the kind of guy who gives XP only for killing monsters. Killing monsters isn't the only encounter. If your highest is level 7. BUMP EVERYONE TO LEVEL 7. What about traps? an encounter right there. Diplomacy. another one. if a level 1 kills a cr 7, i believe thats a bump to at least level 5, maybe 6. or another one. if you are still fighting were it take a long time to reach level 2. the level 7 should be at highest 5. (when CR1s and CR2's stop giving XP) HE should bump the part to 7. you know what, bump everyone to 8. so the level 7 doesn't feel singled out. even 1 level of difference for 1 person can cause the death of a party. but you shouldn't be level 1 next to a party of level 7s. death comes quick.
#6 land_of_dogs Feb 13, 2009 17:52:58	We gain experience differently. Our DM gives experience to all surviving players at the end of the session, instead of for each creature we kill. I've only played one session and died at the very end, so I didn't get any experience yet. I would have survived, but we were caught in a nuclear explosion and everyone made it but me (the character with the most evasive prowess, and I get caught in the blast). I'm sure I can catch up with the weakest player after one or two sessions, I just want to know if there is a way for me to be useful without getting blown up or in the way of a spell or something, at least until I get to level 5 (which is the weakest characters level right now besides me). Any ideas?
#7 ciaran Feb 13, 2009 17:58:39	At the very least you should come in at the same level at the lowest level character. If the highest is 7th then I'd be surprised if the lowest was beneath 6th. You basically have nothing or very little to contribute the fights compared to them. I don't think everybody needs to have the same, but that much of a difference is rediculous. Talk to the DM. He should bump everybody up to 6th, 7th or in between.
#8 daidojitaidoru Feb 13, 2009 18:03:17	I'm sure I can catch up with the weakest player after one or two sessions, I just want to know if there is a way for me to be useful without getting blown up or in the way of a spell or something, at least until I get to level 5 (which is the weakest characters level right now besides me). No. Assuming your fellow players have even the tiniest amount of competence your level 1 corpse in waiting can't possibly of any more use to them then an equivalent amount of meat. If you're playing 3rd ED your HP are just to low to be useful even as a caster, if you're playing 4th ED you can't beat anything that's even pretending to be level appropriate to the rest of the party. Your character is effectively worthless. Sorry.
#9 land_of_dogs Feb 13, 2009 18:17:17	Okay, when they reincarnate my body and find out my race, we'll negotiate putting me at level 5. I don't think any of them will argue if I'm at the same level as their weakest character. Still, I would have liked to start at level 1 and work my way up. Thanks for the info.
#10 gaaaaah Feb 13, 2009 19:44:46	if you are playing 3.5 then a dying level 1 character would lose 2 con per ressurection. that puts you 4 below already. I would introduce a completely new character (still a rogue if you want)
#11 Novacat Feb 13, 2009 19:54:26	Use this as a warning that your DM isn't looking out for what's fair, or what's fun, for you players (or maybe you specifically). This means that in the future, if you feel that you're losing out unfairly, you know that you need to speak up, rather than rely on the DM to notice and correct it. I had a DM who cared little for fairness when it came to managing fairness and fun. Once he canceled the game for one weekend, due to a family event. Then, after I made other plans, it was un-canceled, and they played. Then, they played again the next day, a day on which they knew I couldn't play, and when we've never played before. In the end, I had missed the last 1/3 of KotSF, I missed the first section of the next adventure (so I had no idea what we were even doing), and was about a level behind everyone else. It was some serious punishment, and I told him straight up I felt screwed. He didn't care. I wasn't there, therefore I didn't get the experience (which was only part of the problem anyways). Now, I run a weekly game (that's been on hold for almost 3 months due to crazy schedules) where one player can only make it every other week. He still gets experience for the weeks he can't make it, because to do otherwise would make it impossible for him to continue being able to contribute, and I suspect he wouldn't much care to show up even when he were able. I STRONGLY recommend to all DMs to keep the party at a uniform level of experience!
#12 land_of_dogs Feb 13, 2009 20:34:40	Well, he's made it fair for everyone else. The battles we entered were completely easy (despite the fact I really only got in a three hits the whole four hours we played). I think he dumbed down the creatures a little so I wouldn't die. Unfortunately, I died anyway due to a risky move on our halfling druids part which caused a giant blast that blew the crap out of the surrounding area. So I don't think he doesn't care, he just didn't expect us to blow the whole place sky high and burn my character to a crisp with it. As for my constitution, I'm not too concerned with the major lapse in it. I'll just work around it. It's only one more reincarnation, it won't hold me back that much. Besides, I like my character.
#13 CCS Feb 13, 2009 23:17:42	...what kind of dm would let someone start at level 1 when there's someone at least level 7? Me - depending upon the story elements, group opinion, etc already in place. Of course I've also never been one to hold the lower lv characters to only advancing 1 lv at a time. So in my games a novice character running with more experianced companions tends to learn alot quicker. Partly out of nececity, partly out of the assumption the other characters help train them. Sure, it's a bit more work on my end as far as encounter design goes, but that's ok. As for surviving as the low lv guy in such a party once combat starts? Well, speaking from experience, you simply have to learn play smarter. You don't jump right into every situation melee weapon 1st. Maybe you just flank, maybe you provide some missle fire/use a reach weapon, you definitly try & use the enviroment & your equipment in more creative ways. There's all manner of things you can do to add to a fight that don't directly rely on hitting high ACs.
#14 Novacat Feb 13, 2009 23:26:24	As for surviving as the low lv guy in such a party once combat starts? Well, speaking from experience, you simply have to learn play smarter. You don't jump right into every situation melee weapon 1st. Maybe you just flank, maybe you provide some missle fire/use a reach weapon, you definitly try & use the enviroment & your equipment in more creative ways. There's all manner of things you can do to add to a fight that don't directly rely on hitting high ACs. The only way a 1st level character can reliably survive a CR 7 Encounter is to stay the hell back, and that should hardly warrant XP. The 1st level character will also be incapable of meaningfully contributing to the party's efforts, so I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun for them. Why would the adventuring party want to let him tag along, sharing in loot, when he can't hope to stand up to the threats they're facing? You don't jump right into every situation melee weapon 1st. The last time a DM said this to me, I got together with another player and we made a two-cleric combo that made the entire party basically impossible to attack. Not just impossible to hurt, but it was freaking hard just to ATTCK us, because he would counterspell everything, and I would throw up AoE-Sanctuary spells with crazy-enhanced DCs while simultaneously healing everyone and granting a handful of temporary HP. Later we reminded him of his "learn to not get hit" statement, and we both chuckled.
#15 CCS Feb 13, 2009 23:34:26	Well, he's made it fair for everyone else. The battles we entered were completely easy (despite the fact I really only got in a three hits the whole four hours we played). I think he dumbed down the creatures a little so I wouldn't die. Unfortunately, I died anyway due to a risky move on our halfling druids part which caused a giant blast that blew the crap out of the surrounding area. So I don't think he doesn't care, he just didn't expect us to blow the whole place sky high and burn my character to a crisp with it. As for my constitution, I'm not too concerned with the major lapse in it. I'll just work around it. It's only one more reincarnation, it won't hold me back that much. Besides, I like my character. Good for you! Make sure you co-ordinate actions amongst the party so as to minimize the risks of friendly fire. Now, go get creative & prove these others wrong about your ability to survive. We look forward to reading of your success. Btw, you might argue that your character did infact learn something & thus maybe should recieve some xps. Afterall, you can tell all about what happened right up to the point you got crisped..... As a DM I'd buy that logic.
#16 Novacat Feb 14, 2009 0:30:57	Now, go get creative & prove these others wrong about your ability to survive. Actually, he proved us right already. He said that the DM went out of his way to keep him from dying, which makes it a hallow victory indeed. If he's going to do that, why not just start you at a higher level and make the encounters NORMAL? Also, notice that the only one who died in the explosion was the level 1 guy. Both of these show that he can't survive in a game that level 7 characters could take seriously.
#17 land_of_dogs Feb 14, 2009 2:01:49	The reasn I died was because it was a nuke-esque exlosion and I rolled very poorly for my save. I might have survived if I had rolled higher. Besides, everyone else was almost dead after the blast (except for our Kobold Wizard, who is a werewolf and has higher health).
#18 durendal_mn Feb 14, 2009 3:02:37	Consider "rerolling" as a leader type. Clerics and Warlords (especially) can still aid the party. Granting your more powerfull allies extra attacks or healing can be key. The warlord's commanders strike with a reach weapon will allow you to aid a "frontline" ally while keeping you "safe" from harm. Warlords also grant an initiative bonus and a bonus to the parties action point expenditure. Specialize in high defense, bolstering powers, and ranged actions. All things which keep you alive and still aid the party as a whole. Take skills and languages based around aiding the party. I personally believe this level difference, let alone any level difference is a mistake; and just poor gming. ymmv. Never ever plan on damaging a foe, or inflicting conditions. thats not your role, you're a sidekick. Do shortround style actions. Throw Indy the rope, etc...
#19 Novacat Feb 14, 2009 3:09:18	For those who haven't been paying attention, the OP is in a 3.5 game.
#20 the_black_hand Feb 14, 2009 13:49:24	if you are playing 3.5 then a dying level 1 character would lose 2 con per ressurection. that puts you 4 below already. I would introduce a completely new character (still a rogue if you want) Hmm, that must be an unique rule in your 3.5 books. Mine only says 1 con point..
#21 ADHadh Feb 14, 2009 15:07:58	if a level 1 kills a cr 7, i believe thats a bump to at least level 5, maybe 6. IIRC in 3.x you can't gain more than one level per single encounter. I don't remember if it's the same in 4e.
#22 daidojitaidoru Feb 14, 2009 15:21:44	IIRC in 3.x you can't gain more than one level per single encounter. I don't remember if it's the same in 4e. 4th ED doesn't have that rule as far as I know because you aren't supposed to have widely disparate levels, and certainly aren't supposed to be able to survive any encounter that grants enough XP to level 2 or more times.
#23 Novacat Feb 14, 2009 15:38:05	Hmm, that must be an unique rule in your 3.5 books. Mine only says 1 con point.. Actually... If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. However, the subject loses one level, or 2 points of Constitution if the subject was 1st level. The only means of avoiding this within core rules is to use True Resurrection, though that is well beyond the reach of the party in question. 4th ED doesn't have that rule as far as I know because you aren't supposed to have widely disparate levels, and certainly aren't supposed to be able to survive any encounter that grants enough XP to level 2 or more times. This, while true, is wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand.
#24 the_black_hand Feb 14, 2009 16:07:38	Actually... The only means of avoiding this within core rules is to use True Resurrection, though that is well beyond the reach of the party in question. This, while true, is wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand. Hmm, guess I was wrong. Never used anything besides TR anyway. Thanks for the clarification.
#25 land_of_dogs Feb 14, 2009 21:34:21	Yo. Sorry to burst the topic here, but the game in question is discontinued (DM is indisposed). We're starting a new game and I'm playing a different rogue now. We all made new characters and everything. However, I spoke to the other players, and the DM was going to have my character earn twice the Exp. until I got caught up. We gained exp. after every session of play, so all I had to do was survive battles by staying out of the way, and do my duty as a rogue and disarm the traps that plagued the dungeons they played through. So, it wasn't unfair for me at all. But I digrece, the game is over for a long long long long long long long while. Thanks for the support.
#26 crossblade Feb 16, 2009 20:41:59	Double experience still wouldn't be the correct amount. Since the fights would be harder for your character at the SIGNIFICANT lower level, there'd be a curve proportionate to what you should be earning. For 3.5, in the DMG, it's page 38, table 2-6. If you're level 1, and the encounters are CR (challenge rating) 7, you should be getting over 10 times experience until 5th level. (The curve slowly declining) However, unfortunately since that GM doesn't even seem to understand the principle of WHY a new player should join at the same level as the group, I doubt he would understand CR...
#27 volcanon2 Feb 18, 2009 14:18:51	I would insist on being given a fair level or quit. What fun is there to be level 1 if everybody else is way way better?
#28 Arbitrary_Aardvark Feb 18, 2009 15:38:04	The reasn I died was because it was a nuke-esque exlosion and I rolled very poorly for my save. I might have survived if I had rolled higher. Besides, everyone else was almost dead after the blast (except for our Kobold Wizard, who is a werewolf and has higher health). You likely would have died instantly anyway. You -- 1st level rogue, with say, 14 CON -- 8 HP. Eight die fireball -- average damage 28 HP. If you save, you take 14, and are at -6 HP, four rounds from being dead. If everyone else was almost dead, the blast was probably more than for 28 HP.
#29 Arbitrary_Aardvark Feb 18, 2009 15:39:27	IIRC in 3.x you can't gain more than one level per single encounter. I don't remember if it's the same in 4e. In 3.5, BTW, you get xp even if you get killed, so by the rules as written you should have gotten xp for the adventure in which you died (assuming they brought you back.)
#30 chaosturtle Feb 18, 2009 17:35:30	The reasn I died was because it was a nuke-esque exlosion and I rolled very poorly for my save. I might have survived if I had rolled higher. Besides, everyone else was almost dead after the blast (except for our Kobold Wizard, who is a werewolf and has higher health). Or if you were level 7...you'd have an incredible evasion (and actual evasion) and more hp! Low rolls usually don't matter with evasion/improved evasion/all that dex gear/7 rogue levels.