Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shr3dz Apr 03, 2008 17:49:15	Hi all, So I havent played DnD for about 2 years now, I had a couple kids instead, and now that theyre getting older, Im able to game again. My DM is starting a brand new campaign in less than a month now and everyone is starting at level 1. I think in all my (15) years of playing DnD now Ive never played a Rogue, or if I did it was a really long time ago. Anyways, my question is simple: What do you think I should expect from this character? Obviously I have a ton of skills to take advantage of, one of which being Bluff. From reading the description, it takes a standard action to do, so does that mean you basically miss a turning Bluffing so that next turn you can SA? Obviously you would never really need to Bluff if you have a flanking partner (unless you wanted your ally to get the benefit of no-dex too). Also, lets take a forest excounter, no surprise round, everyone sees everyone. Now can I go behind a tree and make a hide check? I dont think you can make a hide check while everyone can see you, even in a casual manner. From there I can maybe hide my way around behind the enemy party or something. Generally speaking, characters dont live very long in my DMs games, so keeping that in mind, which feat(s) do you think are wise for the first few levels? My first impression was to go dodge/mobility/spring attack. But now that Ive come to thinking, what about imp.initiative/weapon finesse? Use Rope and Escape artist, are they generally good enuf to warrant maxing out? I know theres some synergy there but how often do they get used. Ive maxed out all there real no-brainers, but I have a couple left that Im not too sure about. One last thing, our party was constructed seperately, so now that everyone is done building their characters I find out there theres no spellcasters whatsoever (well ok, theres one, kinda). We have a ranger, fighter x2, pally, rogue x2, bard. I expect the 5 minute work days is going to totally kick our asses. We can expect no cleric NPCs and no healing potions OR wands of any sort. Ive already warned our DM but he's just going to let us play it out and see what happens. What do you guys foresee? Thanks in advance~
#2 zennith Apr 03, 2008 18:01:08	Hi all, So I havent played DnD for about 2 years now, I had a couple kids instead, and now that theyre getting older, Im able to game again. My DM is starting a brand new campaign in less than a month now and everyone is starting at level 1. I think in all my (15) years of playing DnD now Ive never played a Rogue, or if I did it was a really long time ago. Anyways, my question is simple: What do you think I should expect from this character? Obviously I have a ton of skills to take advantage of, one of which being Bluff. From reading the description, it takes a standard action to do, so does that mean you basically miss a turning Bluffing so that next turn you can SA? Obviously you would never really need to Bluff if you have a flanking partner (unless you wanted your ally to get the benefit of no-dex too). Also, lets take a forest excounter, no surprise round, everyone sees everyone. Now can I go behind a tree and make a hide check? I dont think you can make a hide check while everyone can see you, even in a casual manner. From there I can maybe hide my way around behind the enemy party or something. Generally speaking, characters dont live very long in my DMs games, so keeping that in mind, which feat(s) do you think are wise for the first few levels? My first impression was to go dodge/mobility/spring attack. But now that Ive come to thinking, what about imp.initiative/weapon finesse? Use Rope and Escape artist, are they generally good enuf to warrant maxing out? I know theres some synergy there but how often do they get used. Ive maxed out all there real no-brainers, but I have a couple left that Im not too sure about. One last thing, our party was constructed seperately, so now that everyone is done building their characters I find out there theres no spellcasters whatsoever (well ok, theres one, kinda). We have a ranger, fighter x2, pally, rogue x2, bard. I expect the 5 minute work days is going to totally kick our asses. We can expect no cleric NPCs and no healing potions OR wands of any sort. Ive already warned our DM but he's just going to let us play it out and see what happens. What do you guys foresee? Thanks in advance~ What to expect? That would really depend on how you built that character. Like if you built for it killing, for skills. ect. Yes it basically takes a turn to sneak attack if you use bluff without approriate feats. I see parties survive without Clerics, besides not every Cleric is all about healing anyway. You should be able to go around objects to hide but that's DM's opinion sort of and you can hide while be seen just you need the ability called hidein plain sight which is high level. Escape Artist is worth maxing.
#3 braithwaite Apr 03, 2008 19:51:08	The Ranger, Pally and Bard can all use healing wands if they can get them. It is important to note that the ranger and Pally can use the wands even before they get high enough level to get those spells. Max Tumble, Use Magic Device and Escape artist. What books do you have available? Also important for builds in this kind of party is what everyone else is building. With that many tanks, there should be no problem finding a flanking partner, but ranged vs melee could go either way depending on the builds of the other characters.
#4 shr3dz Apr 03, 2008 22:46:41	I plan on being the parties only skill monkey, so Ill most likely have spotlight time when theres isnt combat going on. We are only able to use the PHB for character builds. We are playing a low magic setting, so I wont be allowed UMD and I doubt any characters will be finding and wands for a reeeeeally long time. You got me wondering when you mention that youve played in parties without a cleric. What sort of preparations do you make to avoid the 5-minute-work-day multiplied my the restful-work-week afterwards to heal up? Ok so Ill prolly max escape artist, thats 2 votes for.
#5 wih Apr 03, 2008 23:05:30	Hi all, So I havent played DnD for about 2 years now, I had a couple kids instead, and now that theyre getting older, Im able to game again. My DM is starting a brand new campaign in less than a month now and everyone is starting at level 1. I think in all my (15) years of playing DnD now Ive never played a Rogue, or if I did it was a really long time ago. Anyways, my question is simple: What do you think I should expect from this character? Obviously I have a ton of skills to take advantage of, one of which being Bluff. From reading the description, it takes a standard action to do, so does that mean you basically miss a turning Bluffing so that next turn you can SA? Obviously you would never really need to Bluff if you have a flanking partner (unless you wanted your ally to get the benefit of no-dex too). Also, lets take a forest excounter, no surprise round, everyone sees everyone. Now can I go behind a tree and make a hide check? I dont think you can make a hide check while everyone can see you, even in a casual manner. From there I can maybe hide my way around behind the enemy party or something. Generally speaking, characters dont live very long in my DMs games, so keeping that in mind, which feat(s) do you think are wise for the first few levels? My first impression was to go dodge/mobility/spring attack. But now that Ive come to thinking, what about imp.initiative/weapon finesse? Use Rope and Escape artist, are they generally good enuf to warrant maxing out? I know theres some synergy there but how often do they get used. Ive maxed out all there real no-brainers, but I have a couple left that Im not too sure about. One last thing, our party was constructed seperately, so now that everyone is done building their characters I find out there theres no spellcasters whatsoever (well ok, theres one, kinda). We have a ranger, fighter x2, pally, rogue x2, bard. I expect the 5 minute work days is going to totally kick our asses. We can expect no cleric NPCs and no healing potions OR wands of any sort. Ive already warned our DM but he's just going to let us play it out and see what happens. What do you guys foresee? Thanks in advance~ Firstly, dodge/mobility/spring attack aren't that flash. Improved Initiate is very, very flash though. Go for it if you have the spare feats. As far as putting out damage goes, the most efficient way of doing so for Rogues is usually with Two Weapon Fighting, though if you have a good Wizard in your party, Archery at higher levels can pay off with Improved Invisibility, and it'll keep you out of danger. Weapon Finesse will be needed if you're dumping your STR (which a lot of Rogues do, especially if they're doing Archery or TWF, which most do). By "Bluff" I'm assuming you mean Feinting? If so, it's not that great - it only lasts for your next attack, and you have to be next to the opponent. This means that you'll never get more than one Sneak Attack a round. Flanking is a much, much better way of getting your Sneak Attack - and it'll help your team-mates to boot. Be warned - playing the Rogue is dangerous. Rogues are usually the first person in the praty to die - they're normally at the front of the party to scout or check for traps, and so they're the first to get hit, and that hurts when you have a d6 for HP. Be very, very careful. Having good perception skills (Spot, Listen) and good Initiative will help. Tumble is also a godsend. Good skills to have: Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Search, Disable Device, Escape Artist. Open Lock isn't needed if you have an arcanist in the party who can cast Knock. Use Rope isn't very useful. Get some MW Manacles instead - higher DC, and you don't need to waste skillpoints. In order to make a Hide check when everyone is watching, you need to make a Bluff check first. Don't bother - wait until your party Wizard gets access to Invisibility. Your party is going to die very badly until you hit level two, when you'll finally get some party healing. Expect casualties, since you have no way of stabilizing people with magic. Don't let it be you. Be willing to spend a Standard Action for an untrained heal check to stabilize a party member. Hope that wasn't too much of a spiel, and hope it helps.
#6 evilcouch Apr 03, 2008 23:20:49	Side note: You cannot get skill synergies until level 2. All skill synergies require 5 ranks in a skill, which you cannot gain until then (and that assumes that the skill you're getting the synergy because of is a class skill. If it's a cross class skill, you can't get it until level 7.)
#7 zillah Apr 03, 2008 23:21:19	don't get into a fight with a cat. cause you will lose =(
#8 toucanbuzz Apr 04, 2008 11:00:59	What do you think I should expect from this character? Expect to have some fun with it! You've got enough skill points to make yourself useful in a variety of ways others could never imagine. Don't assume your only role is to disable traps. it takes a standard action to do, so does that mean you basically miss a turning Bluffing so that next turn you can SA? Correct, but if you take the feats "Combat Expertise" and "Improved Feint", you can bluff as a move action, allowing you, on success, to get that sneak attack the same round. Also, lets take a forest excounter, no surprise round, everyone sees everyone. Now can I go behind a tree and make a hide check? I dont think you can make a hide check while everyone can see you, even in a casual manner. Would vary by DM, but I'd think once you've been spotted you can't just "disappear" by creeping behind a tree. At the very least, I'd give a heck of a spot check bonus to anyone looking for you. Generally speaking, characters dont live very long in my DMs games, so keeping that in mind, which feat(s) do you think are wise for the first few levels? My first impression was to go dodge/mobility/spring attack. But now that Ive come to thinking, what about imp.initiative/weapon finesse? The Spring Attack route isn't impressive although it is flashy to imagine yourself running around the battlefield at will. Improved Initiative is a fantastic general feat for any class, and weapon finesse rocks for the rogue, though your weapon choices will be somewhat limited (mostly to weapons you already use!) Use Rope and Escape artist, are they generally good enuf to warrant maxing out? I'm guessing you won't see many opportunities to use them, but it's an aesthetic choice on skills. Again, you don't have to use a cookie-cutter rogue with maxed ranks in Search, Open Locks, and Disable Device if you don't want to. I find out there theres no spellcasters whatsoever...What do you guys foresee? I let players do what they want, so your DM has likely accounted for this. If you want to put points in Use Magic Device, you can aid your party by being able to use otherwise barred items.
#9 shr3dz Apr 04, 2008 11:12:57	Firstly, dodge/mobility/spring attack aren't that flash. Improved Initiate is very, very flash though. Go for it if you have the spare feats. As far as putting out damage goes, the most efficient way of doing so for Rogues is usually with Two Weapon Fighting, though if you have a good Wizard in your party, Archery at higher levels can pay off with Improved Invisibility, and it'll keep you out of danger. Weapon Finesse will be needed if you're dumping your STR (which a lot of Rogues do, especially if they're doing Archery or TWF, which most do). By "Bluff" I'm assuming you mean Feinting? If so, it's not that great - it only lasts for your next attack, and you have to be next to the opponent. This means that you'll never get more than one Sneak Attack a round. Flanking is a much, much better way of getting your Sneak Attack - and it'll help your team-mates to boot. Be warned - playing the Rogue is dangerous. Rogues are usually the first person in the praty to die - they're normally at the front of the party to scout or check for traps, and so they're the first to get hit, and that hurts when you have a d6 for HP. Be very, very careful. Having good perception skills (Spot, Listen) and good Initiative will help. Tumble is also a godsend. Good skills to have: Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Search, Disable Device, Escape Artist. Open Lock isn't needed if you have an arcanist in the party who can cast Knock. Use Rope isn't very useful. Get some MW Manacles instead - higher DC, and you don't need to waste skillpoints. In order to make a Hide check when everyone is watching, you need to make a Bluff check first. Don't bother - wait until your party Wizard gets access to Invisibility. Your party is going to die very badly until you hit level two, when you'll finally get some party healing. Expect casualties, since you have no way of stabilizing people with magic. Don't let it be you. Be willing to spend a Standard Action for an untrained heal check to stabilize a party member. Hope that wasn't too much of a spiel, and hope it helps. Id perfer more spiels like that actually ;) So I should prolly switch from the spring attack path to the 'help me survive right now' path. improved initiative and weapon finesse will be my target. I believe my str is 11 and my dex is 16, Im a halfling. Do you think I should even bother with Bluff skills at all? I think Bluff changed its name to Fienting in 3.5 or something, we are only using 3E stuff (could get an exception if DM allowed it). Im aware of synergies starting at lvl2, I should be racking them in. lvl2 should be sweet if I live. Be wary of cats, got it. Tactics-wise, should I be avoiding any 1 on 1 fights, and tumbling all over the place hoping to get behind a fighter so if something tries to attack me it'll get AoO'ed from my ally? I can only tumble 20' a round as a halfling right? None of which provokes any AoO's so I should be somewhat safe if I make my checks...
#10 lsmft Apr 04, 2008 11:59:31	Obviously I have a ton of skills to take advantage of, one of which being Bluff. From reading the description, it takes a standard action to do, so does that mean you basically miss a turning Bluffing so that next turn you can SA? Obviously you would never really need to Bluff if you have a flanking partner (unless you wanted your ally to get the benefit of no-dex too). As said, this is feinting. Generally, the trade off doesn’t seem very good to cut it down to a move action. Your party is filled with guys who want to go into melee (2 fighters and a paladin) stand across from one. If you get a longspear, you can flank and stay out of reach more easily. Also, lets take a forest excounter, no surprise round, everyone sees everyone. Now can I go behind a tree and make a hide check? I dont think you can make a hide check while everyone can see you, even in a casual manner. From there I can maybe hide my way around behind the enemy party or something. It is hard to hide once spotted, but you can. You use Bluff to create a Diversion. (See the Bluff description.) Generally speaking, characters dont live very long in my DMs games, so keeping that in mind, which feat(s) do you think are wise for the first few levels? My first impression was to go dodge/mobility/spring attack. But now that Ive come to thinking, what about imp.initiative/weapon finesse? I would go Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse: The first is going to let you get the jump on opponents, sneak-attack to kill or severely weaken them so the fighters can kill in one round. Finesse is going to improve your odds of hitting in melee. (Not that you have to go melee.) After that, Two-Weapon fighting is popular. More attacks can result in more hits = more SA. Another way to go is ranged: Point-blank Shot increases to hit and damage at close range. Precise Shot will cut the penalty for shooting into melee. It is harder to get SA this way (no ranged flanking) but it is an option. Consider it, if only to reject it on an informed basis. One last thing, our party was constructed seperately, so now that everyone is done building their characters I find out there theres no spellcasters whatsoever (well ok, theres one, kinda). We have a ranger, fighter x2, pally, rogue x2, bard. I expect the 5 minute work days is going to totally kick our asses. We can expect no cleric NPCs and no healing potions OR wands of any sort. Ive already warned our DM but he's just going to let us play it out and see what happens. What do you guys foresee? I see your deaths, dramatic but painful. Using healing items requires those items to be available, and you aren’t very optimistic. But even more, there are worse things out there than hp damage. Now, it is going to be kobolds and goblins, but later it will be incorporeal undead and demons. With no casters and limited access to items, combined with a live-and-let-die DM, you’re in for it. (No, the bard is not going to hack it.) As the second rogue in the party, I would strongly consider multiclassing. Do you think I should even bother with Bluff skills at all? I think Bluff changed its name to Fienting in 3.5 or something, we are only using 3E stuff (could get an exception if DM allowed it). Feinting is one of the ways you use the bluff skill. (I am sure that is true in 3.0 as well as 3.5) But there are a lot of other uses too. Tactics-wise, should I be avoiding any 1 on 1 fights, and tumbling all over the place hoping to get behind a fighter so if something tries to attack me it'll get AoO'ed from my ally? Yes. Avoid standing toe-to-toe with the bad guy. Your AC will be good at this level, but you haven't got the hit points. I can only tumble 20' a round as a halfling right? Yes. This is why I might favor archery, at least in the short run. Tumbling reduces your speed to ½, and even then, it is a 15 DC to avoid AoOs. Your check modifier is going to be +7 at best now: a 35% chance of failing. At level-two, with a synergy bonus, your mod will jump to +10. A much more acceptable 20% chance of failure, but the movement is still so low. (Not that you shouldn’t max this skill. You should. Just be wary when you use it.)
#11 williamtanner Apr 04, 2008 12:25:44	As a rogue, especially low level, you will be wise to use a bow instead of trying to get into melee. In melee you may get in more damage but you will get smacked hard when the opponents should be trying and failing to smack the tank. With improved initiative with will be more likely to get in sneak attacks on flat-footed opponents at the beginning of the fight, which can change the whole fight dynamic right off the bat. As a human rogue, you should do well with improved initiative, point blank shot, and then pick up precise shot at 3rd so you can fire into melee without penalty. Weapon Finesse looks nice but it's the feat I most regretted taking. Note: If there's a monk in the party, you can ask him to stun opponents a lot and then you may shoot them while flat footed for sneak attacks.
#12 lsmft Apr 04, 2008 12:39:06	Weapon Finesse looks nice but it's the feat I most regretted taking. At the risk of derailing the thread, why? Did you take it and then find you were never in melee?
#13 kuros81 Apr 04, 2008 13:43:20	As a rogue, especially low level, you will be wise to use a bow instead of trying to get into melee. In melee you may get in more damage but you will get smacked hard when the opponents should be trying and failing to smack the tank. With improved initiative with will be more likely to get in sneak attacks on flat-footed opponents at the beginning of the fight, which can change the whole fight dynamic right off the bat. I concur. But since there's another rogue in the party, you want to be able to do whatever that rogue cannot. And, the bard will probably take all the social skills. I guess what I'm saying is, it seems your role will be duplicated. LSMFT recommends multiclassing. I recommend trying another class entirely. Your group seriously needs a wizard.
#14 lsmft Apr 04, 2008 14:02:41	Or a cleric. The only reason I suggested multiclassing over changing class was that I figured he wanted to play a rogue. For the party, changing classes would probably be better. But, it is his character. Going into an arcane class would be strongest (for this group) but for a halfling rogue, no other info, multiclassing with cleric (Olidammara/Trickery and Luck domains or Fharlanghn with the Travel) he could add a lot to the group without (probably) getting in the way of the rogue concept he is already committed to.