I am currently playing a 4e game involving a barbarian, rogue, wizard and myself as a paladin. Im wearing the heaviest armour possible and take a -1 reduction to speed with a +9 to AC which brings my AC score up to something like 21. My rogue friend has light armour but gets to add his dex score making his AC 26 and no penalties, how is such a thing possible? Surely the guy wearing the heavy stuff should have a better armour count.
The argument is that light armour makes you quicker in the field but surely thats what the point of the defenses are for. The paladin takes the role of defender which states that they have high defenses and high physical attack but the rogue is pretty much dominating that role in this game. Is there any benefit to having heavy armour without enchantments?
Many thanks in advance. = )
Hey all,
I am currently playing a 4e game involving a barbarian, rogue, wizard and myself as a paladin. Im wearing the heaviest armour possible and take a -1 reduction to speed with a +9 to AC which brings my AC score up to something like 21. My rogue friend has light armour but gets to add his dex score making his AC 26 and no penalties, how is such a thing possible? Surely the guy wearing the heavy stuff should have a better armour count.
The argument is that light armour makes you quicker in the field but surely thats what the point of the defenses are for. The paladin takes the role of defender which states that they have high defenses and high physical attack but the rogue is pretty much dominating that role in this game. Is there any benefit to having heavy armour without enchantments?
Many thanks in advance. = )
Can i ask what level's your characters are, also what Dex the rogue has, and if he is wearing any magic armour.. it doesn't really ad up, assuming your 4th level in plate (giving you an AC of 21),
That makes the rogue base AC 12, plus a Dex or Int of say 21 (off the top of my head I can't think of a way a 4th level character would have higher) that would make is 17, plus light armour (even hide armour) +3 would make a total of 20.
This would seem reasonably even to me.
4th level Artful Dodger Rogue, and his AC (versus opportunity attacks)
12 base + Dex 5 (from a 21) + Leather 2 (because feats are for other things) + Charisma 3 (from class feature, only applies against OA) + Defensive Mobility 2 (yay feats, only against OA) + Halfling 2 (only against OA) = 26
If the Rogue is claiming a 26 AC all day long... he is cheating (maybe not inentionally though)
Did you say the rogue is adding his Dex score to his AC? He is only supposed to be adding his Dex modifier.
I think you need to reread that..
And yes you are right, either int or dex mod gets added to your AC when you are in light armour.
Im wearing the heaviest armour possible and take a -1 reduction to speed with a +9 to AC which brings my AC score up to something like 21. My rogue friend has light armour but gets to add his dex score making his AC 26 and no penalties, how is such a thing possible?
Seems you're level 4 or 5.
Best I can see at level 5 is a Dex 20 human rogue might be able to pull off AC 24 with double sword, two weapon fighting, two weapon defense, hide armor proficiency, and +2 hide armor. But that's pretty much optimized just for AC (and would have -1 skill check penalty).
AC 19-21 should be typical for a 4th or 5th level rogue
10 (base) + 2 (half level) + 2 (leather) + 1 or 2 (enhancement) + 4 or 5 (dexterity)
With situational modifiers obviously it can be much higher.
I've got a whole thread up on this exact topic over on the defender boards. Most people seem to feel that light armor SHOULD be as good as it is. It's pretty trendy to be the slippery dexy nimble dodgy character now-a-days.
The argument is that light armour makes you quicker in the field but surely thats what the point of the defenses are for. The paladin takes the role of defender which states that they have high defenses and high physical attack but the rogue is pretty much dominating that role in this game. Is there any benefit to having heavy armour without enchantments?
The defender is supposed to keep enemies off the rest of the party.
If you run around naked and it's much easier to hit you then even the Wizard... then the enemies will target you instead, thus fulfilling the Defender role.
This is why Marked is -2 to hit anyone other than the Marker. A rogue with high AC makes them less tempting a target, which lets them live and deal more damage.
The others are right though, I don't know how the rogue has such a high AC.
My own Artful Dodger, optimized at 20/16 dex/cha at level 4:
Normal AC: 22 (2 lvl +2 leather +2 enhancement +5 dex +1 mage's parrying dagger)
AC vs OAs: 27 (+3 Cha +2 Halfling)
AC vs OAs from Deft Strike: 30 (+3 Cha from Harlequin's Style).
Note that the +2 leather is already a little over baseline, too. I don't see how else to get a higher AC, I'm even using Mage's Parrying Dagger cheese!
With a 19 AC wearing just plate (+8).
You'd have to be level 2-3? 10+1lvl+8plate. Nonmagical armor, then.
My rogue would be at 19 at this point - exactly the same. I don't see how to get it higher short of spending two feats to get TWD to hit AC20 - a big waste, really.
My rogue friend has light armour but gets to add his dex score making his AC 26 and no penalties, how is such a thing possible?
It's not. Not if you're the same level (remember that you both add 1/2 your level to AC).
Either one of you is making a big mistake on the math or else you're misunderstanding something. Maybe he has a 26 AC only versus Opportunity Attacks (a Rogue class feature lets him add his Charisma to his AC, but only against OAs.)
I think you need to reread that..
Here is what it states:
My rogue friend has light armour but gets to add his dex score making his AC 26 and no penalties, how is such a thing possible?
If it is actually the Dex score being added, that would explain how the rogue got such a high AC, although not by the rules.
We're actually level 6 so 19 dex gives a +4 and then half level of +3 gives +7, and 10 + 1/2 level is 13 so thats 20 in total. +4 for armour and +2 in misc although he hasnt written down any of his equipment and he is a shifter/razorclaw which I dont have the books on me but I'm guessing the misc must be a +2 racial or something.
Still doesn't sound right to me but it just got me thinking if the striker rushes in (as they usually do in our game) and I'm laggin at the back, IF the rogue had the same AC as me, why would something as silly as a -2 stop them from attacking the rogue anyway? I understand nimble characters would be more agile from attacks etc. Im just finding it hard to grasp a -2 would swing it so much.
And my armour is a +8 with a 13 base.
We're actually level 6 so 19 dex gives a +4 and then half level of +3 gives +7, and 10 + 1/2 level is 13 so thats 20 in total. +4 for armour and +2 in misc although he hasnt written down any of his equipment and he is a shifter/razorclaw which I dont have the books on me but I'm guessing the misc must be a +2 racial or something.
You seemed to have added the +1/2 level twice. It should be
10 + 3 (1/2 level for level 6) + 4 (Dex 19) + 4 (armour) + 2 (misc) = 23.
If he got 4 for armour, then it sounds like it's from leather +2. Leather gives you 2 only and the other +2 sounds like it's from a magical +2 enhancement. Not sure what that 2 for misc is. No race gets a flat +2 racial bonus to AC. We'll need to know his equipment and feats and character options to do a proper calculation. It looks suspicious.
And my armour is a +8 with a 13 base.
Your AC sounds like +8 for plate, 10 base and 3 for 1/2 level (level 6) which makes 21. It looks like you are not using a shield. Does that sound right?
If we assume that the Defender and the other party members have roughly equivalent AC, -2 to hit makes the defender the easiest target to hit. Your other requirement is that you FORCE the target to want to hit you.
A mindless creature (Zombie, insect, etc) should be going after the easiest target (YOU). A more intelligent creature can TRY to go after another target, but that's why you have a punishment mechanic (albeit Pallies need a rework). The punishment combined with the -2 to hit makes you the more agreeable target and so they attack you.
A mark is a fair way to discourage an enemy from attacking your party members. If you notice most players should be looking to maximize their chance to hit, and that5's just what opponents should be doing the majority of the time.
In unenchanted plate armor at lvl6 you absolutely need to upgrade IMO. Though having low armor only serves to make you an ever more attractive target, it also makes you unnecesarrily easy to hit.
He was so obsessed with being a werewolf (which I don't mind but every game he plays a werewolf) I decided to start giving him silver items which he couldnt use and we all mocked him (:D ) so he might be getting his own back. Even so no one has received magical armour yet and he hasnt written any feats down apart from wild senses so he hasnt got proficiency in any other than light armour. I'm gona have to have some words me thinks!
Thanks for all the help guys, I'll post up what went wrong on sunday evening.
P.S. Does anyone know if theres any links for feats for the warforged at all? One of our characters is a warforged and is finding it difficult to get suitable feats. Thanks again.
+1 Plate (Gives 9 AC) Level 1 magic item (Bare minimum, it's only 360 GP!)
...or...
+2 Rimfire Plate (Resist 1 All, 10 AC)
+2 Layered Plate (11 AC)
...either of those are level 6 items, so easily within your reach. The layered plate will give you 24 AC, and if you use a large shield, that will put you at 26.
His AC (assuming +2 Leather) is 10 + 3 (level) + 4 (armor) +4 (dexterity) for a total of 21. He'll go to 23 when bloodied.
----Edit: Just read your reply above
If nobody is getting magic items, do you have a wizard or anyone else with Ritual Caster? By level 4 a ritual caster can make their own magic items, of their own level or lower. You may want to point out to the DM that level-appropriate magic items are assumed as part of the balancing mechanism. For example, Plate-wearers get masterwork armor earlier than leather-wearers.
However, assuming no magic items, you're looking at 21 AC for yourself (23 if you use a large shield), and 19 for the rogue (21 when bloodied.)
-----------------------------
Re: Warforged feats
Go to this link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drtoc/364
That's the first digital Dragon magazine, which is freely available to everyone. It's got the Warforged article, including racial feats.
P.S. Does anyone know if theres any links for feats for the warforged at all? One of our characters is a warforged and is finding it difficult to get suitable feats. Thanks again.
Check the Free issues of Dragon, there is a Warforged article in one of them, but more then just that.
Thanks again. That warforged article is pretty cool! I never would have even bothered checking for free issues :D